A case against the external world

[RMQualtrough]

In my opinion there is no "out there" called the physical world at all. If you could somehow exit your brain and see the world as it objectively is, I believe it would simply be a singularity.

Think of something like a natural version of simulation theory.

Our brains you might picture as something like being a finger on your hand. As a finger you can only pick up some kind of reaction from touching an object. You have no idea what other fingers feel or what sight is etc. All of that qualia is nonexistent from your point of view. Yet exists somewhere in the entire human as a whole (the entire singularity).

Saying there's an "external world" is like saying the world of The Sims is external from the point of view of a Sim. The world of a human is external from the point of view of a human.

But really it's all just "code" processed in one place.

...

People are quite blind to the extent that the external world can be manipulated chemically in the brain, while still working exactly the same way. Such things are often experienced on heavier psychedelic drugs... That is to say, my fingers can suddenly look like they're half the length they are, and yet when I go to touch something they don't just stop short because there's actually some invisible extra finger length. They touch exactly where it looks like they will.

The brain can create various accurate and working models of the external world. There is no saying for example, that your perception of distance is the same as mine. We might both measure with a ruler 30cm from our eyes to the screen, but the sensation of how far our hands travel to reach it can differ wildly while still producing the expected outcomes.

Not one law of science or physics is broken but the experience is wildly different in every way.

The external world is heavily malleable like that. There is no real way to say what it is actually "like" out there if it's even out there at all. But some kind of singularity in which everythingness is contained, would explain everything as far as I can tell. And would not invalidate any scientific understanding of reality.

[Adamq8]

Yes I agree, and i think the configuration of the five senses limits our perception of "infinity" down to what we see in front of us, and psychedelics alters that either really radical or just a bit, same with other drugs or breathing techniques etc.

But then we have the mind which do not really rely on the five senses in that way, if we look at dreams etc, then it is the "subtle" mind which can create out of a seemingly nothing and is not in need of the gross physical senses to create an experience and a dream world.

" Nothing is known except through the modality of the knower " 

Thats why i feel that this singularity is limiting it self down to our 3 d world.

We are a black hole, black holes is the most destructive and the most creative thing in the universe. 

A singularity. 

The singularity is the mind of GOD, we are in the mind of god here

[RMQualtrough]

1 hour ago, Kalo said:

If the external world doesn't exist, then where is it? Inside the brain? Doesn't sound reasonable. The mind? If so, it must be in God's Mind. So it's "out there" but Ultimately within it's Source. "Out there" like for example a rabbit running in a forest, but "within" as in Ultimately speaking, the Greater Reality. I see no problem with this.

I would say the external world exists no matter what view you give of the Ultimate Reality. It's a real part of or in the Source, and a real experience experienced by a real state of consciousness.

The problem is, that there are aspects of external reality that simply CANNOT be true. For example, if I see an apple as red and it seems close to me, then I smoke some drugs and it is seen as blue and seems very far, yet in both scenarios I can reach out and touch that apple where it looks to be... Then at least one of these models of the apparent world has to be wrong.

It's not possible for it to be like both at the same time if it's something objectively "out there".

The color red exists in our mind, it does not exist "out there".

Where does it stop? If I can get high and everything seems suddenly super close, maybe everything IS super close. How can I know that extremes like the 2D flat imagery of the world around me on Salvia is not how it really appears?

Some of these perceptions MUST be wrong. But if the external reality were objective as we see it, then the hallucinations wouldn't function. Like if you see a wall you might walk into it because it's "objectively" closer. But that's NOT what happens. Various renderings of the environment work.

Is there really anything out there at all?

[RMQualtrough]

5 hours ago, Adamq8 said:

Yes I agree, and i think the configuration of the five senses limits our perception of "infinity" down to what we see in front of us, and psychedelics alters that either really radical or just a bit, same with other drugs or breathing techniques etc.

But then we have the mind which do not really rely on the five senses in that way, if we look at dreams etc, then it is the "subtle" mind which can create out of a seemingly nothing and is not in need of the gross physical senses to create an experience and a dream world.

" Nothing is known except through the modality of the knower " 

Thats why i feel that this singularity is limiting it self down to our 3 d world.

We are a black hole, black holes is the most destructive and the most creative thing in the universe. 

A singularity. 

The singularity is the mind of GOD, we are in the mind of god here

Curious for your input upon Darwinian Evolution. Assuming it is correct as I do believe so, how does that fit into a model where reality is totally subjective?

And I mean reality IS subjective as can be demonstrated. There is no getting around it, it's simply factual that the world is subjective. So what is going on with that?

What is the "objective" reality like if there even exists one? We imagine that it's in God's mind, but what is it "like" in God's mind before it is perceived. If like nothing, then what is evolution and the pre-mind cosmos?

Good questions to seek answers to.

[Incognito]

Great topic. I often wonder why we experience TIME as an external force when it is just a mind construct? It looks like an external uncontrollable force that makes us age and die but it has nothing to do with what really happens. Also, distance is an illusion. So yes, you cannot measure objective reality. You can only measure what happens inside your head.