Is spirituality going to destroy entrepreneurship/life purpose?

[tatsumaru]

I have spent a big chunk of my life as an entrepreneur trying to understand what does it actually mean to create value and improve something. Initially it seemed clear to me that making life better is simply about increasing happiness and reducing suffering by addressing people's needs as per Maslow's hierarchy of needs. So for example if someone got shot in the jaw and the bullet destroyed their jaw and they couldn't chew properly anymore then creating a solution that could restore their jaw back to health would be considered value. However...

A big chunk of what spirituality is all about is that everything is fine as it is and it is the ignorance that is causing the suffering, not life being imperfect and needing improvement. So from spirituality's perspective, if we take the same example from above, guns only exist due to ignorance and therefore if people weren't ignorant, no one would be shot in the jaw, and therefore there would be no need for surgeons who fix jaws etc. etc. Of course this is an extreme oversimplification but you can see where I am going with this. If people knew what to eat and how to take care of their teeth they wouldn't need dentists, if people knew how to take care of their bodies there wouldn't be heart attacks and there would be no need for cardiothoracic surgery. If people knew how to raise their children properly there would be no childhood trauma and no need for child psychologist etc. etc.

Granted, we have some needs like eating, shelter and water that can't be solved through letting go and meditation, but even highly conservative societies like the Amish who barely use any technology have all of these met, therefore there's no need for innovation in that regard. The only thing that would be needed from that perspective is to dissolve people's ignorance about what the journey is and then just sit on our porches, appreciate the sunsets and wait to die. That would mean no life purpose, for there's nothing to be improved or done except for letting go of ignorance and therefore there would be no entrepreneurship either for all entrepreneurial pursuits will be essentially grounded in ignorance. I mean after all the Buddha didn't own any ergonomic chairs or blenders and he didn't give two shits about measuring his heart rate with a fitbit wearable heart rate tracker.

A counter-point to all that is that the size of our population increases, and as it increases it modifies its environment in order to accommodate all the individuals. Caves become houses, houses become blocks, blocks become skyscrapers etc. As this complexity arises, so does arise the complexity of fulfilling the basic needs such as eating. There are no fruit and deer running around freely in NYC to hunt and gather and therefore entrepreneurs need to figure out how to create infrastructures which deliver food to citizens. However you could still argue that the main reason people concentrate in these big cities is because of meaningless jobs rooted in ignorance and that if these jobs were to be realized as ultimately meaningless then these big cities wouldn't need to exist and since the majority of planet Earth is actually unpopulated people could just go back to owning houses and their own gardens and therefore they could live like the Amish and not need anything and therefore there would extremely little to no need at all for entrepreneurs and there would be no life purpose.

It is possible that I am trying to turn something dynamic into something static. For example maybe people have certain problems right now that they won't have in 1000 years from now and that's fine. It is tempting to think of value as the pursuit of harmony relative to our changing environment. Maybe entrepreneurship is a finite puzzle that once solved will delete itself for society will become fully harmonious and self-healing. I am quite paralyzed by this because I can never build a business that ultimately makes the world a worse place and promotes ignorance just so I can make some money and I am certain that most businesses do precisely that anyway.

What am I missing here? Is there really nothing important to be done aside from the spiritual journey? Is entrepreneurship a delusion?

Edited June 19, 2021 by tatsumaru

[Rajneeshpuram]

Imagine yourself in your deathbed, at 70-80 years old. If you're so lucky that brain is still working properly and start remembering what you done in life, what you regret...

Being or not a entrepreneur will have zero importance. Having acomplished a big purpose or not will have zero importance too.

Probably you'll regret passing thru life without stoping to smell the roses, to spend more time with your family, to forgive, to love.

 

[captainamerica]

20 minutes ago, Rajneeshpuram said:

Imagine yourself in your deathbed, at 70-80 years old. If you're so lucky that brain is still working properly and start remembering what you done in life, what you regret...

Being or not a entrepreneur will have zero importance. Having acomplished a big purpose or not will have zero importance too.

Probably you'll regret passing thru life without stoping to smell the roses, to spend more time with your family, to forgive, to love.

 

 

[JosephKnecht]

1 hour ago, tatsumaru said:

What am I missing here? Is there really nothing important to be done aside from the spiritual journey? Is entrepreneurship a delusion?

Some people like to eat fish. To those people you give fish.

Some people like to learn how to fish. To those people, you teach how to fish.

You need to have all different kinds of people.

Entrepreneurship is the ability to recognize what people need and giving it to them.

Spirituality is different. It is the realization that the spirit can not be given.

The best you could do is supporting them on their spiritual journey by giving them fish and teaching them to fish. 

[tatsumaru]

50 minutes ago, JosephKnecht said:

Some people like to eat fish. To those people you give fish.

Some people like to learn how to fish. To those people, you teach how to fish.

You need to have all different kinds of people.

Entrepreneurship is the ability to recognize what people need and giving it to them.

Spirituality is different. It is the realization that the spirit can not be given.

The best you could do is supporting them on their spiritual journey by giving them fish and teaching them to fish. 

Not sure it's as simple as that. Some people want heroin, do you simply give it to them? Value needs to be grounded in a realization of what's good (authentic happiness) and what's a simulation of authentic happiness (heroin). Otherwise there's no progress.

[universe]

Of course, everything is a delusion!

What is good is what is happening right now.

There is nothing to do or to go to. Because everything that is, is already an authentic representation of what God/Infinity wants to display.

[SgtPepper]

I believe that they intertwine.

[K VIL2]

6 hours ago, tatsumaru said:

What am I missing here? Is there really nothing important to be done aside from the spiritual journey? Is entrepreneurship a delusion?

i have no idea and wonder this sometimes.

 

[JosephKnecht]

22 hours ago, tatsumaru said:

Not sure it's as simple as that. Some people want heroin, do you simply give it to them? Value needs to be grounded in a realization of what's good (authentic happiness) and what's a simulation of authentic happiness (heroin). Otherwise there's no progress.

The biggest problem is that people don't know what they want. 

Sometimes to know what you want, you have to try things such as heroin. 

You don't want heroin, per se, since you want the happiness that it gives you. 

How could you know authentic happiness(Aristotle called it Eudaimonia), if you first don't experience inauthentic happiness(heroin)?

It is you that draws that distinction between authentic/inauthentic.  

Edited June 20, 2021 by JosephKnecht

[Nahm]

On 6/19/2021 at 5:36 AM, tatsumaru said:

I have spent a big chunk of my life as an entrepreneur trying to understand what does it actually mean to create value and improve something. Initially it seemed clear to me that making life better is simply about increasing happiness and reducing suffering by addressing people's needs as per Maslow's hierarchy of needs. So for example if someone got shot in the jaw and the bullet destroyed their jaw and they couldn't chew properly anymore then creating a solution that could restore their jaw back to health would be considered value. However...

A big chunk of what spirituality is all about is that everything is fine as it is and it is the ignorance that is causing the suffering, not life being imperfect and needing improvement. So from spirituality's perspective, if we take the same example from above, guns only exist due to ignorance and therefore if people weren't ignorant, no one would be shot in the jaw, and therefore there would be no need for surgeons who fix jaws etc. etc. Of course this is an extreme oversimplification but you can see where I am going with this. If people knew what to eat and how to take care of their teeth they wouldn't need dentists, if people knew how to take care of their bodies there wouldn't be heart attacks and there would be no need for cardiothoracic surgery. If people knew how to raise their children properly there would be no childhood trauma and no need for child psychologist etc. etc.

Granted, we have some needs like eating, shelter and water that can't be solved through letting go and meditation, but even highly conservative societies like the Amish who barely use any technology have all of these met, therefore there's no need for innovation in that regard. The only thing that would be needed from that perspective is to dissolve people's ignorance about what the journey is and then just sit on our porches, appreciate the sunsets and wait to die. That would mean no life purpose, for there's nothing to be improved or done except for letting go of ignorance and therefore there would be no entrepreneurship either for all entrepreneurial pursuits will be essentially grounded in ignorance. I mean after all the Buddha didn't own any ergonomic chairs or blenders and he didn't give two shits about measuring his heart rate with a fitbit wearable heart rate tracker.

A counter-point to all that is that the size of our population increases, and as it increases it modifies its environment in order to accommodate all the individuals. Caves become houses, houses become blocks, blocks become skyscrapers etc. As this complexity arises, so does arise the complexity of fulfilling the basic needs such as eating. There are no fruit and deer running around freely in NYC to hunt and gather and therefore entrepreneurs need to figure out how to create infrastructures which deliver food to citizens. However you could still argue that the main reason people concentrate in these big cities is because of meaningless jobs rooted in ignorance and that if these jobs were to be realized as ultimately meaningless then these big cities wouldn't need to exist and since the majority of planet Earth is actually unpopulated people could just go back to owning houses and their own gardens and therefore they could live like the Amish and not need anything and therefore there would extremely little to no need at all for entrepreneurs and there would be no life purpose.

It is possible that I am trying to turn something dynamic into something static. For example maybe people have certain problems right now that they won't have in 1000 years from now and that's fine. It is tempting to think of value as the pursuit of harmony relative to our changing environment. Maybe entrepreneurship is a finite puzzle that once solved will delete itself for society will become fully harmonious and self-healing. I am quite paralyzed by this because I can never build a business that ultimately makes the world a worse place and promotes ignorance just so I can make some money and I am certain that most businesses do precisely that anyway.

What am I missing here? Is there really nothing important to be done aside from the spiritual journey? Is entrepreneurship a delusion?

If that’s step one, step two is making a dreamboard and seeing it come to life right out of you, step three is prostration ?, and step four is living the manifestation. 

[Zeldor]

@tatsumaru If everything is fine then it is fine to not think that everything is fine. I don’t think there is really any “should” in spirituality. There is no reason you should or should not be an entrepreneur. If you are going to be an entrepreneur that is fine, same if you are not going to be one. Do what you want, and if you don’t know what you want just make your best guess. Of course, not doing what you want is completely fine too, so no worries if you think you make bad guesses right now.

From a truly spiritual perspective, IMO - even spirituality isn’t something you should do or something that is good to do(;

Edited June 20, 2021 by Zeldor

[mandyjw]

Spirituality is what allows in the enjoyment of any action and outcome, which is ultimately the realization that there is no action or outcome. It enhances and optimizes, not afraid to utilize the wrecking ball, sledge hammer or the gold leaf and the finest set of artists brushes. 

People as individuals don't want the same things out of perfect divine order. During the pandemic for example, as a society we needed people to fearlessly brave the virus and be willing to put themselves at risk substitute teaching and supporting businesses and we needed others to be recluses. The notion that everyone can or will or should all do the same thing isn't right, it usually comes from a need to justify one's own actions because one feels doubt about them. 

[Leo Gura]

Business is survival. Life is about survival. Even if everyone on Earth was awake, they would still need to survive and business would still have a place.

But even more importantly, business should be your creative passion, your art, which you would do even if no one needed it. So long as you're alive you are gonna have the problem of what to do with your time and creative energy.

God is creative. You cannot stop people from being creative any more than you can stop the sun from shining.

So the only real question is: what do you want to create?

Nothing is important in itself. Things become important if you want them to be.

[tatsumaru]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But even more importantly, business should be your creative passion, your art, which you would do even if no one needed it. So long as you're alive you are gonna have the problem of what to do with your time and creative energy.

How would creating something that no one needs help you survive?

[JosephKnecht]

1 hour ago, tatsumaru said:

How would creating something that no one needs help you survive?

Perfect question for Leo.

Nobody needs enlightenment, and yet that is what Leo is selling to survive.  

[Zeldor]

@JosephKnecht Nobody needs anything really, after all: you could just die(;

[tatsumaru]

1 hour ago, JosephKnecht said:

Perfect question for Leo.

Nobody needs enlightenment, and yet that is what Leo is selling to survive.  

Personally I feel like everyone is actually seeking to return to Source and looking for Source in the dream. I think everyone needs enlightenment, but that's beside the scope of that discussion. Regardless, if people are buying enlightenment stuff from Leo, then maybe they need it, don't underestimate Maslow's insights and people's attraction to truth.

Edited June 20, 2021 by tatsumaru

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, tatsumaru said:

How would creating something that no one needs help you survive?

That's the point, art and creativity transcends survival. I'm trying to show you a way beyond survival.

[martins name]

@tatsumaru there is a difference between what people need and what they want. If you give people what they want but not need they will stay in addiction. If you give people what they really need, that is healing or the means for healing, they will grow. Maslow's hierarchy goes towards self-transcendence. If people are hungry then giving them food will get them closer to enlightenment than giving them Buddhist teachings.

Life isn't meaningless. Even if people would be happier if they let go, the happiness that they feel in their "meaningless" lives is still profound. Happiness is like a landscape of peaks and valleys, where some peaks are higher than others. The peak of the standard modern life isn't very high while the peak of spirituality is as high as it goes. Every peak is meaningful and profound. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by martins name

[preventingdiabetes]

1 hour ago, martins name said:

If you give people what they really need, that is healing or the means for healing, they will grow. Maslow's hierarchy goes towards self-transcendence. If people are hungry then giving them food will get them closer to enlightenment than giving them Buddhist teachings.

@martins name I like the way you put it.

would this be the same for financial needs? 
E.g: If someone isn’t financially independent, financial advice and working on their financial independence will get them closer to Enlightenment, instead of just trying to “transcend survival” and only study Enlightenment teachings while neglecting survival?