None of my spiritual experiences so far have demolished materialism

[Breakingthewall]

were any of those 5 meo trips a total breakthrough? if plugging in doesn't work for you, you can try finding a babysitter and vaporizing 20mg Really. A real surrender

 

[Leo Gura]

31 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

@Leo Gura I "realized" on 4-aco-dmt come up that I was literally the spoon I was moving with my fingers. That until now was the most clear non dual state I reached.

What more do you want?

You problem is that you are dismissing the Truth in search for something else.

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But what? Is "just" a state, insight,  realization, hallucination, feeling, or whatever.

It's not just a state. It's Absolute Truth, but you are overlooking the obvious.

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It is not Truth.

What if it is?

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If it was, I would have stopped playing the game.

No, that's your assumption.

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In the sober life the realization is that I am SEPARATE from the spoon and the spoon might exist outside of me.

Well, your sober life is the dream state.

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And that separation is as real as the psychedelic state, sorry to break it to you.

It's not real at all since the only way you could experience a spoon is if you were it, and it was you.

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It seems we have different goals of what Truth is. For me Truth must be always clear, not only in a meditative or psychedelic state.

Indeed, your ideas about Truth are the problem. Truth is simply everything you see and feel at all times, regardless of state.

Truth has nothing to do with permanence. You guys love to cling to this false notion.

If you are stuck in a dualistic, materialistic state, that is still Truth. That is what God is imagining for itself. That's the dream God is spinning at that moment.

Dreams are still Truth.

Indeed, your problem is that you have not deconstructed your mind enough to realize what Truth is.

Take more psychedelics, contemplate seriously, and do not dismiss psychedelics insight as "just a state or just experience". That is the trick your mind uses to nullify the breakthrough and keep you safely stuck in duality and matetialism. You think you are being careful and rigorous but actually that is just an ego-trap. You are being rigorous about staying locked into "reality".

[RMQualtrough]

2 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

@Leo Gura I "realized" on 4-aco-dmt come up that I was literally the spoon I was moving with my fingers. That until now was the most clear non dual state I reached.

But what? Is "just" a state, insight,  realization, hallucination, feeling, or whatever.

It is not Truth.

If it was, I would have stopped playing the game. 

In the sober life the realization is that I am SEPARATE from the spoon and the spoon might exist outside of me.

And that separation is as real as the psychedelic state, sorry to break it to you.

It seems we have different goals of what Truth is. For me Truth must be always clear, not only in a meditative or psychedelic state.

That man is a doctor in neuroscience. This may help.

[Javfly33]

@Leo Gura If that moment would have been Absolute Truth, why do I still have a doubt? 

If it's Absolute, wouldn't make that impossible to even trick myself to doubt it?

For example, if I see the colour red, the colour is absolute. I can't deny myself that the colour red exists. If Truth is the present moment, then Ok, because you can't deny the present moment.

But The interpretation of the present moment, such as "this is a dream because I just died into the spoon and I can't find myself" after the mystical experience is just...an interpretation. That's why I still have fear of death. 

Do you see where I'm going Leo?

 

[Mulky]

If you try to assume the position that materialism is not true, and make yourself believe that, you will only strengthen your belief in materialism.  If you accept whatever reality materialism has and not fight it,  then your perspective can relax and then shift.

[diamondpenguin]

16 minutes ago, Mulky said:

If you try to assume the position that materialism is not true, and make yourself believe that, you will only strengthen your belief in materialism.  If you accept whatever reality materialism has and not fight it,  then your perspective can relax and then shift.

Ok, so just acceptance in reality as it is, is really it. 

[Mulky]

Yes, just accept it as whatever it is

[roopepa]

5 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

@Leo Gura If that moment would have been Absolute Truth, why do I still have a doubt? 

If it's Absolute, wouldn't make that impossible to even trick myself to doubt it?

For example, if I see the colour red, the colour is absolute. I can't deny myself that the colour red exists. If Truth is the present moment, then Ok, because you can't deny the present moment.

But The interpretation of the present moment, such as "this is a dream because I just died into the spoon and I can't find myself" after the mystical experience is just...an interpretation. That's why I still have fear of death. 

Do you see where I'm going Leo?

If everything in fact would be mind-stuff, what experience would these thoughts create?

If everything were mind-stuff, would these thoughts hold any validity whatsoever?

[Leo Gura]

11 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

@Leo Gura If that moment would have been Absolute Truth, why do I still have a doubt? 

Every moment is Absolute Truth.

The problem is you're not conscious of it. You don't understand what it is.

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If it's Absolute, wouldn't make that impossible to even trick myself to doubt it?

Since you are God, you can delude yourself endlessly. The only way for God to awaken is to realizing you're fooling yourself.

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For example, if I see the colour red, the colour is absolute. I can't deny myself that the colour red exists. If Truth is the present moment, then Ok, because you can't deny the present moment.

Yes

But even if you say all that, you still aren't conscious of it.

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But The interpretation of the present moment, such as "this is a dream because I just died into the spoon and I can't find myself" after the mystical experience is just...an interpretation. That's why I still have fear of death. 

Do you see where I'm going Leo?

You being the spoon is not an interpretation. It just is the case.

At some point you have to realize that doubt itself is the ultimate self-deception. Absolute Truth cannot be doubted. Well, actually it can. But if you insist on doing that, you will never realize Truth.

Stop trusting your doubt.

[Guest EmptyVase]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That is the trick your mind uses to nullify the breakthrough and keep you safely stuck in duality and matetialism.

How can we validate/acknowledge for ourselves if we had a breakthrough in anything? One could say that a breakthrough is obvious, and I had some obvious ones, but as you said, the ego may also nullify a legit breakthrough. Or even in personal development, when you truly achieve something amazing but fail to acknowledge it to yourself.

Not-knowing (aka "I can't tell if the breakthrough/'achievement x' was legit because I always could be wrong") could also become a trap if taken too far, just as it is the case with knowing.

Btw, I'm not implying here that Truth is an achievement.

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, EmptyVase said:

How can we validate/acknowledge for ourselves if we had a breakthrough in anything? One could say that a breakthrough is obvious, and I had some obvious ones, but as you said, the ego may also nullify a legit breakthrough. Or even in personal development, when you truly achieve something amazing but fail to acknowledge it to yourself.

1) There is no way around direct consciousness. Since everything is consciousness. Doubt is consciousness too.

2) Self-deception is always at play. You will never be immune to it.

That's the epistemic conundrum of existence.

But still, you can be Absolutely Conscious, Infinitely Conscious of Truth.

If you are still having doubts, you haven't become conscious enough.

Become so conscious that doubt and self-deception and wrongness are themselves seen through.

7 hours ago, EmptyVase said:

Not-knowing (aka "I can't tell if the breakthrough/'achievement x' was legit because I always could be wrong") could also become a trap if taken too far, just as it is the case with knowing.

Yes it can. And often is.

[Javfly33]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

If you are still having doubts, you haven't become conscious enough.

 

@Leo Gura Well then I do have a point, after all. Maybe I need to just abide in that state of pure non duality more.

I was in that clear state of being "totally gone" for some seconds only.

When you breakthrough on 5-MeO you are in that state for +10minutes for example?

Notice I am talking about a non dual state of pure clarity of being the spoon...not thinking you are the spoon, but literally dying into the spoon. 

There is not even a thought of " I have become Enlightened".

Just a pure knowing it's a dream.

I told this experience to normies and they understood it as something scary, but I do remember for those seconds like I tasted pure heaven 

[Moksha]

@Javfly33 You are sincere, and that is a powerful weapon. But what will you do with it? Are you also brave? What if sincerity leads to the dissolution of your dreams? What if it takes you to the edge of uncertainty, and plunges you into driftless non-conceptualization? What if it demands ultimate disidentification with your thoughts? Are you willing to pay that price?

Alan Watts has a beautiful book called The Wisdom of Insecurity: A Message for an Age of Anxiety Check it out.

It is natural to be frightened of the abyss, but only by embracing it will you realize the truth. And when you do, you will laugh. 

Sit down before fact like a little child, and be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abyss Nature leads, or you shall learn nothing.

- T. H. Huxley

[Guest EmptyVase]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If you are still having doubts, you haven't become conscious enough.

Oh yeah, I remember hearing you saying: "If you become conscious of truth, it's un-fucking-shakable."

True dat.

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

@Leo Gura Well then I do have a point, after all. Maybe I need to just abide in that state of pure non duality more.

Most definitely.

4 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

I was in that clear state of being "totally gone" for some seconds only.

That's not long enough.

4 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

When you breakthrough on 5-MeO you are in that state for +10minutes for example?

Several hours.

4 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

Notice I am talking about a non dual state of pure clarity of being the spoon...not thinking you are the spoon, but literally dying into the spoon. 

Yeah, of course. That's direct nondual consciousness.

4 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

There is not even a thought of " I have become Enlightened".

There could be a thought or not. Doesn't really matter.

4 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

Just a pure knowing it's a dream.

Yup

4 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

I told this experience to normies and they understood it as something scary, but I do remember for those seconds like I tasted pure heaven 

Of course, it's literally heaven.

[Blackhawk]

Why base your entire worldview on some short lasting fleeting experiences while you were tripping balls, or had short experiences while sober, and then dismiss the longer and more stable experience which is called normal sober everyday experience?

According to logic the experience which is longer lasting, more consistent, and more stable etc. should be the truth. And that is the normal, sober, rock stable, and natural everyday experience/level of consciousness.

I've had weird mystical experiences too, but why would I believe in them? They are probably hallucinations. I had a sober mystical experience a few hours ago which was convincing while it was lasting, but now when I'm on my right mind again I dismiss the temporary experience as a nonsense hallucination.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Blackhawk

[Blackhawk]

7 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

Why base your entire worldview on some short lasting fleeting experiences while you were tripping balls, or had short experiences while sober, and then dismiss the longer and more stable experience which is called normal sober everyday experience?

According to logic the experience which is longer lasting, more consistent, and more stable etc. should be the truth. And that is the normal, sober, rock stable, and natural everyday experience/level of consciousness.

I've had weird mystical experiences too, but why would I believe in them? They are probably hallucinations. I had a sober mystical experience a few hours ago which was convincing while it was lasting, but now when I'm on my right mind again I dismiss the temporary experience as a nonsense hallucination.

I could now choose to believe that what I experienced temporarily showed me the real truth. But then it would be just a belief. And it's also a belief that my current experience is showing me the truth, albeit a stronger one.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Blackhawk

[RMQualtrough]

3 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

I could now choose to believe that what I experienced temporarily showed me the real truth. But then it would be just a belief. And it's also a belief that my current experience is showing me the truth, albeit a stronger one.

How can a person believe their own consciousness is a hallucination? Lol...

[Rajneeshpuram]

3 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

Why base your entire worldview on some short lasting fleeting experiences while you were tripping balls, or had short experiences while sober, and then dismiss the longer and more stable experience which is called normal sober everyday experience?

According to logic the experience which is longer lasting, more consistent, and more stable etc. should be the truth. And that is the normal, sober, rock stable, and natural everyday experience/level of consciousness.

I've had weird mystical experiences too, but why would I believe in them? They are probably hallucinations. I had a sober mystical experience a few hours ago which was convincing while it was lasting, but now when I'm on my right mind again I dismiss the temporary experience as a nonsense hallucination.

The "sober experience" is the trap nature uses to make sure you keep alive taking care of yourSELF. It's a mental trick, not true.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Rajneeshpuram

[Blackhawk]

2 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

How can a person believe their own consciousness is a hallucination? Lol...

I don't believe our own consciousness is a hallucination. But the content of consciousness might be a hallucination.

2 hours ago, Rajneeshpuram said:

The "sober experience" is the trap nature uses to make sure you keep alive taking care of yourSELF. It's a mental trick, not true.

Cool idea.