Wuhan lab conspiracy theory - Scientific propaganda and thuggery

[Epikur]

 

[Ajay0]

 The fact that the Chinese government messed up both the Sars Cov-1 outbreak in 2002 and the present SARS-CoV-2 in 2019, failing to warn world governments in time, do showcase lack of transparency and accountability in the system.

They need to be taken to task by the UN or other regulatory bodies in the world, or else we may face a third coronavirus a few years later after all this is over.

As for the lab leak theory , I think it is possible, and I won't be surprised if the Chinese government had gone the extra mile in covering up its tracks and wiping out all evidences in this regard.

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Ajay0

[Epikur]

1 minute ago, Ajay0 said:

 The fact that the Chinese government messed up both the Sars Cov-1 outbreak in 2002 and the present SARS-CoV-2 in 2019, failing to warn world governments in time, do showcase lack of transparency and accountability in the system.

They need to be taken to task by the UN or other regulatory bodies in the world, or else we may face a third coronavirus a few years later after all this is over.

As for the lab leak theory , I think it is possible, and I won't be surprised if the Chinese government had gone the extra mile in covering up its tracks and wiping out all evidences in this regard.

 

 

 

The point here is that the american scientists did not do their job.

 

Quote

Finally, in this time of unfortunate anti-Asian sentiment in some countries, we note that at the beginning of the pandemic, it was Chinese doctors, scientists, journalists, and citizens who shared with the world crucial information about the spread of the virus—often at great personal cost (8, 9). We should show the same determination in promoting a dispassionate science-based discourse on this difficult but important issue.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/372/6543/694.1


 

Quote

"At the time, it was scarier to be associated with Trump and to become a tool for racists, so people didn't want to publicly call for an investigation into lab origins," she said.

Now, more scientists are comfortable confronting the gamut of plausible theories — particularly given China's opacity about the topic — although many still caution that entertaining the idea of a lab leak requires clear scientific proof, which hasn't materialized.

"There has been no new evidence over the past 16 months that the virus had a lab origin," said Maciej Boni, an associate professor of biology at Penn State University, who specializes in tropical disease epidemiology and viral evolution.

https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/lab-leak-theory-science-scientists-rcna1191
 

 

[Leo Gura]

The problem is that there is a difference between a legit lab leak theory by scientists and then the right-wing versions of it which are just part of their anti-gov, nationalist, MAGA ideology.

When you peddle 100s of conspiracy theories a few of them might end up getting validated at some point. But even so, the MAGA crowd is not gonna treat this as an innocent lab leak, they are gonna use it as an ideological and political weapon to spread hatred, false distrust, and paranoia. Which is why conspiracy theories are so toxic. Even when they are right, they are wrong. It makes genuine science more difficult because now people have to also worry about how knowledge is weaponized and politicized and work to counter for it. That countering can itself misfire and that will of course get weaponize by ideologues and conspiracy theories.

Conspiracy theorists have this sick double standard where the established knowledge has to correct 100% of the time, or else some conspiracy is afoot. But the conspiracy theorist can be wrong 95% of the time and not care at all because all he sees is the 5% of the time he is right. So it's a gross perversion of how knowledge works. Knowledge is never perfect or certain. Yet dumb people pretend like it can or should be, and if it isn't something sinister is afoot.

Science and medicine makes plenty of mistakes, but conspiracy theorists make way more mistakes. That's what it all boils down to. We are looking for epistemologies which reduce the mistakes and self-deceptions. Conspiracy theories are not the way to acheive that.

[Radu97]

So Leo why do even left leaning news outlets who even went on joe rogan support this lab leak conspiracy theory? (Check krystal ball and saagar) 

 

I don't support this theory but I am just confused that even people who I thought were not going to go down this rabbit hole went down after all.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=__Czlg1xLJA

[Epikur]

The lab leak theory was always legit as a possibility but the scientists lied about it. The scientists already admitted that they lied. It is that simple. The reason was MAGA and maybe because of Fauci's interests.
 

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by Epikur

[Parththakkar12]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

When you peddle 100s of conspiracy theories a few of them might end up getting validated at some point. But even so, the MAGA crowd is not gonna treat this as an innocent lab leak, they are gonna use it as an ideological and political weapon to spread hatred, false distrust, and paranoia. Which is why conspiracy theories are so toxic. Even when they are right, they are wrong. It makes genuine science more difficult because now people have to also worry about how knowledge is weaponized and politicized and work to counter for it. That countering can itself misfire and that will of course get weaponize by ideologues and conspiracy theories.

Are you saying that conspiracy-theories are like a cancer to the existing epistemic order? Isn't that a good thing?!

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Conspiracy theorists have this sick double standard where the established knowledge has to correct 100% of the time, or else some conspiracy is afoot. But the conspiracy theorist can be wrong 95% of the time and not care at all because all he sees is the 5% of the time he is right. So it's a gross perversion of how knowledge works. Knowledge is never perfect or certain. Yet dumb people pretend like it can or should be, and if it isn't something sinister is afoot.

Just admit it, man. If your favorite elites say it's right, it's right. Otherwise it's wrong!

Why do you trust their narrative so much? Why is it so trustworthy? Is it just because these institutions and organizations have been around for a long period of time and they're so familiar? How is this 'good epistemology'?

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Science and medicine makes plenty of mistakes, but conspiracy theorists make way more mistakes. That's what it all boils down to. We are looking for epistemologies which reduce the mistakes and self-deceptions. Conspiracy theories are not the way to acheive that.

Here, are you sure you aren't making the mistake of dismissing 'anecdotal evidence' the way the mainstream scientific establishment does? It may just turn out that the 'anecdotal evidence' could be more and more widespread and people just don't see it because they're totally brainwashed by the media and they trust their favorite elites! And the 'science' doesn't agree for some epistemically dogmatic reasons.

Do you remember when I'd posited this theory? March 2020. You'd locked the thread for 'spreading conspiracy theories'. Now, you're on their side because your favorite elites agree!! And, they keep changing the narrative according to what serves them in the moment. All of these are geopolitical moves! Now, they're being the conspiracy-theorists and you're gonna nod along because they said so. Now, the war isn't against conspiracy-theories anymore, it's against 'vaccine misinformation' or something like that. I think it's too late for them!

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by Parththakkar12

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Are you saying that conspiracy-theories are like a cancer to the existing epistemic order? Isn't that a good thing?!

You will never reach truth by flinging shit at the wall.

Just because something is anti-mainstream does not make it right or true.

There is a lot of stuff way worse than the mainstream.

Krystal and Sagaar are a joke.

[whatishappeningtome]

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

When you peddle 100s of conspiracy theories a few of them might end up getting validated at some point. But even so, the MAGA crowd is not gonna treat this as an innocent lab leak, they are gonna use it as an ideological and political weapon to spread hatred, false distrust, and paranoia. Which is why conspiracy theories are so toxic. Even when they are right, they are wrong. It makes genuine science more difficult because now people have to also worry about how knowledge is weaponized and politicized and work to counter for it. That countering can itself misfire and that will of course get weaponize by ideologues and conspiracy theories.

100%. I like the way TYT talk about it in the video linked above. They basically just say yes the lab-leak is plausible while outlining that the people who have been peddling that theory have been dangerous right-wingers. I feel like they approach it very maturely. 

[Epikur]

2 minutes ago, whatishappeningtome said:

100%. I like the way TYT talk about it in the video linked above. They basically just say yes the lab-leak is plausible while outlining that the people who have been peddling that theory have been dangerous right-wingers. I feel like they approach it very maturely. 

Tyt and maturity is a vary challenging concept.
 

 

 

[Parththakkar12]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You will never reach truth by flinging shit at the wall.

Just because something is anti-mainstream does not make it right or true.

There is a lot of stuff way worse than the mainstream.

Krystal and Sagaar are a joke.

The important thing isn't the issue of who's right. The important thing is to see the epistemic structure, which is a structure of mind-control and to claim your mental autonomy back! The important thing is to not parrot the narrative of the elites (or the conspiracy-theorists, doesn't matter) and unconsciously act according to their agendas for humanity.

When you ask yourself the question of who benefits from this narrative and why, who owns it all, when you follow the money, you'll see who benefits from you believing what they're telling you to believe. Doesn't matter whether it's right or wrong for the purpose of this discussion, it's very important to look at who benefits and what their agenda is. Then, based on their next move, we get to plan and make our move in preparation for that future scenario!

[Danioover9000]

   From day one, this was expected to be the case. The only reason why this was contested much more in the USA is because the alt right, including Trump, spun this along with their narrative against China and the left in general. Like being guilty by association, anything they say or do is false, by association.

   

[Leo Gura]

10 hours ago, Parththakkar12 said:

When you ask yourself the question of who benefits from this narrative and why

Sagaar and Krystal benefit the most from their anti-mainstream narrative.

They are not selfless in what they do. Their whole careers hinge on it. And it certainly distorts their worldview and reporting.

Anti-mainstreamism and populism ARE survival strategies and they easily turn into devilry.

[erik8lrl]

Covid was in Europe and the US months before the first official case was comfirmed in China.

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202106/1226339.shtml

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-likely-in-u-s-in-mid-december-2019-cdc-scientists-report-11606782449

Edited June 20, 2021 by erik8lrl

[Epikur]

Quote

The National Institutes of Health earmarked $600,000 for the Wuhan Institute of Virology over a five-year period to study whether bat coronaviruses could be transmitted to humans, White House chief medical adviser Dr. Anthony Fauci told lawmakers Tuesday.

Earlier in the hearing, NIH Director Dr. Francis Collins told Rep. Andy Harris (R-Md.) that researchers at the Wuhan lab “were not approved by NIH for doing “gain of function research” before adding “we are, of course, not aware of other sources of funds or other activities they might have undertaken outside of what our approved grant allowed.”
 

https://nypost.com/2021/05/25/fauci-admits-nih-funding-of-wuhan-lab-denies-gain-of-function/



 

Quote

Fauci Faces More Criticism for Saying It's 'Obviously' in China's Best Interest to Determine COVID Origin

https://www.newsweek.com/fauci-best-interests-china-1597223

Edited June 20, 2021 by Epikur

[Eternity]

I tend to believe the leaked from the lab theory when I remember back to the first whistle blower who spilled the beans was a supervisor at the lab and had caught the virus himself, shortly dying of it after blowing the whistle.  Then the Chinese quickly pointed away from their lab and laid the blame on the nearby wet market where live animals were sold out of cages, and species were kept in tight quarters with different species.  That theory just sounded too far fetched and smacked of a Chinese cover-up.  Regardless of the timing in other countries, both theories stem from the first whistle blower from the Chinese lab.  Before that we all had little to no knowledge of the coming pandemic.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Eternity

[erik8lrl]

There is also the opposite conspiracy narrative, tho much less popular in Western media and suppressed. The theory claims the virus was leaked from the US at Fort Detrick Bio Lab since there was a confirmed safety breach and was shut down in August 2019, and they reported a respiratory illnesses outbreak in Virginia right after the lab shut down. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/05/health/germs-fort-detrick-biohazard.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2019/08/02/virginia-reports-higher-than-usual-number-respiratory-illnesses/

China, of course, has asked the US to let the third party scientists and researchers investigate Fort Detrick. The US has not yet responded and anything related to this topic is suppressed on the internet.

 

The scientists at WHO went to Wuhan and investigated/reviewed the lab and wrote a long report saying that a leak a very unlikely and the origin is most likely a natural cause.  Here is their report:

https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/who-convened-global-study-of-origins-of-sars-cov-2-china-part

 

Basically, all sides are trying to politicize this and benefit from it. Take everything with a grain of salt and only read scientific reports with thorough documentation on their methods and data.  

 

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by erik8lrl

[Epikur]

.@erik8lrl

WHO. You mean these guys:

Quote

GENEVA (Reuters) - World Health Organization chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said on Monday there was no need for measures that “unnecessarily interfere with international travel and trade” in trying to halt the spread of a coronavirus that has killed 361 people in China.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-health-who/who-chief-says-widespread-travel-bans-not-needed-to-beat-china-virus-idUKKBN1ZX1H3

[erik8lrl]

@Eternity The first whistleblower was not a lab researcher. He was a doctor working at the hospital. He texted his family and coworker about the potential that there is a virus spreading. The government told him not to spread the information because, at the time, they still didn't know for sure that this is a contagious virus and how it worked, but they were already doing scientific investigations to find out more about the virus. They didn't tell the public because it will likely lead to fear and people wanting to escape the city, thus potentially spreading it farther and faster. Which worked out later when they locked down the whole city after confirming it's a virus. The virus didn't really spread that far within China because of this. The doctor went back to work on the front line in Wuhan and died after contracting the virus. The government later released an official statement apologizing to the family and called him a hero after the public voiced their condolences. You don't really hear all these details and context in the media in the west.       

[erik8lrl]

@Epikur That was the early stage of the pandemic tho. Scientists say what they think to be the most likely, but it doesn't mean they are always right. They later updated all their guidelines as time went on, as we learned more about the virus. At the time, we are not even clear about how the virus spread.  

Edited June 20, 2021 by erik8lrl