Do Meditation Retreats cause an Ego Backlash?

[kieranperez]

2 hours ago, Vision said:

@kieranperez

What would an example of an extended practice be? Meditation and Yoga? Psychedelics? 

With ego backlash being a thing, how do monks... be monks? Do they even have ego backlashes?

I would really throw that term away and don’t get so hooked on it. Monks still fall back in their practice just like anyone who works on anything. Athletes have times where their motivation drops and their fitness backslides a bit and they can struggle a bit more when their training load increases. Same goes for monks and the spiritual path. New subtler and more fundamental forms of resistance or emotional content can arise in various ways. Having a committed container that is engineered in various sophisticated ways that has been fine tuned over the course of thousands of years help with that. People can hit points of legitimate madness on retreats. It just depends on the person, their karma, and many various factors that often can’t really be predicted ahead of time. 

When I say extended period of practice I mean over the course of months and years. Tibetan Buddhist monks and yogis go on isolated retreats in the Himalayas that can be more than 10 years long. You’re likely not going to transcend all those heaps of tendencies over a one week meditation retreat or even a month for that matter. Even after realization, the further fine tuning while take the rest of your life. 

[4201]

On 15/06/2021 at 3:55 PM, Vision said:

For people who have done meditation retreats, do you often experience an ego backlash afterwards?

I would be tempted to think creating such an event as an awakening or retreat instead of recognizing there is no event and that it's always now creates in a way the backlash because the ego have this event to cling onto as part of it's new life story. In a sense going on a retreat is creating a special moment in which the "me" achieves something and this might lead to lots of thinking about this new "achievement of mine".

Of course one could go out of the retreat with no idea (like trying to continue the meditation but in every day activities without ever conceptualizing the retreat event) but it's hard to not ever conceptualize about it ever. No matter how big of an ego backlash you get though, I would think the insights you get during the retreat are much more beneficial than the backlash are bad and I don't think the retreat itself would be the main cause of a massive backlash if any.

[WelcometoReality]

3 hours ago, Vision said:

@WelcometoReality What do you mean by this? Can you give an example? 

For example; suppressing the desire for sex or success would cause: 

An example from my own experience would be that I was a calm guy, I never got angry at anything. That was what I got told from a young age and that had become part of my identity. When an awakening happened this identity dissolved and after a blissful tranquil period there was alot of anger that came up. The first reaction was that there was something wrong. Awakening should be about love and unity, right? So I started seeking love and unity and suppress the anger.

After another awakening the anger started to come up again. This time I could see what was going on. I stopped suppressing the feeling of anger and instead started investigating it. What I discovered was that the negative emotions are the expression of beliefs. 

The anger came up because I believed that things were the way it shouldn't. I might get angry at my child because she SHOULD listen to me. Because I'm her father so I decide what she SHOULD and SHOULDN'T do. When I then inquired and saw the underlying belief the anger lost it's momentum. Check out Byron Katies the work for some more guidance into inquiry into beliefs.

So there is ego on the level of identity on top of the level of beliefs which are tightly fixed to emotion.

[gggkkk]

On 6/16/2021 at 0:33 AM, Vision said:

@Moksha @gggkkk

What has caused ego backlashes for you in your experience? 
 

Would this be the case with psychedelics too? 

Well it's homeostasis at work here. I also did psychedelics at my last retreat which also contributed to the backlash. Ego's job here is to make you fall off the path in various ugly ways and I am noticing that. 

In my experience psychedelics haven't really caused any severe backlashes. Usually after a trip I am fuelled up with motivation to do work. 

[lark]

@Moksha Always nice to read your posts!

                     People want to believe that awakening is the cure for all of their suffering, but it is only the beginning.

                     Couldn't agree more. Love!

[Moksha]

Thank you, @lark and welcome to the forum ? Awakening is the temporary end of suffering, since in that moment you step out of the matrix, and see the suffering for what it is. The challenge for most of us is that our awakenings are brief, and are punctuated by long periods of sleep. Awakening is only the first step of the enlightenment journey.

Thankfully, there are tools like meditation that build the necessary stamina to remain awake, regardless of the turbulence around us. The ego doesn't give up easily, and spiritual work requires profound sincerity and motivation. Gradually, you stay awake longer, and the cycle is reversed. Your life becomes mostly present, punctuated by brief periods of sleep.

Rumor has it that there are even a few that have learned to live in a perpetual state of presence 

[Vision]

On 6/17/2021 at 3:31 PM, Moksha said:

If you are anxious, depressed, OCD, angry, or simply bored, you haven't yet eventualized the reality of your awakening. Proof is in the pudding.

@Moksha

What practices do you do in regards to awakening? Could it really help the problems you mentioned that much? 

On 6/17/2021 at 4:46 PM, kieranperez said:

I would really throw that term away and don’t get so hooked on it.

@kieranperez 

What term away? Monk? 

On 6/17/2021 at 4:46 PM, kieranperez said:

Even after realization, the further fine tuning while take the rest of your life. 

What do you mean by "further fine tuning"? What does it entail? Working on your Life Purpose?

On 6/18/2021 at 1:21 AM, gggkkk said:

Well it's homeostasis at work here. I also did psychedelics at my last retreat which also contributed to the backlash. Ego's job here is to make you fall off the path in various ugly ways and I am noticing that. 

In my experience psychedelics haven't really caused any severe backlashes. Usually after a trip I am fuelled up with motivation to do work. 

What psychedelics have you taken? 

[Moksha]

On 6/25/2021 at 4:46 AM, Vision said:

What practices do you do in regards to awakening? Could it really help the problems you mentioned that much? 

The spiritual journey is unique for each of us. The Bhagavad Gita mentions several paths, but above all, meditation:

Meditation is superior to severe asceticism and the path of knowledge. It is also superior to selfless service. May you attain the goal of meditation, Arjuna!

- Bhagavad Gita 6:46

For me, suffering was the path to awakening. It was only after I woke up that I started practicing meditation, as an exercise for building the spiritual muscle to stay awake.

I recommend The Mind Illuminated by John Yates. It is one of the best sources I have found on moving through the meditation stages, until your mind is a still flame, no matter what storms are raging around you.

Meditation helps with anxiety, depression, compulsiveness, addiction, and every other disorder of the egoic mind. It reverse engineers mental conditioning, and increases your capacity for staying present. Like any physical workout, it requires commitment and effort, but when you begin realizing the rewards, it becomes self-sustaining.

[Vision]

@Moksha

How long did it take until you started noticing a difference in neuroticism? I feel like I'm not getting anywhere. I don't know if I'm doing it right.

[Moksha]

@Vision You are doing it right. There is a maxim that every meditation is correct. There is no such thing as a failed meditation. Each sit is a step toward the truth that is within, whether it seems that way or not.

Neuroticism is born from conditioning, and is the egoic impulse to seek happiness and peace in a relative world that can never deliver. Freedom is only directly realized. It is not an accomplishment, so much as an opening of your eyes after a long sleep.

The journey is different for each of us. For me, it happened when I woke up. In that moment, when you see clearly, there is no neuroticism. You are entirely present, and are free from anxiety about the future or depression about the past. 

The challenge is to remain in this moment. As long as you are here and now, neuroticism cannot exist. Awakening is important, but so is developing the spiritual vigilance to stay awake. That is where meditation comes in. ?‍♂️

[Vision]

On 28/06/2021 at 0:08 PM, Moksha said:

You are entirely present, and are free from anxiety about the future or depression about the past. 

The challenge is to remain in this moment. As long as you are here and now, neuroticism cannot exist. Awakening is important, but so is developing the spiritual vigilance to stay awake. That is where meditation comes in. ?‍♂️

With this, how do you stay motivated to survive and think about where you are going in the future? How do you think about your future vision, plans, strategy, and still stay present?

[Moksha]

11 hours ago, Vision said:

With this, how do you stay motivated to survive and think about where you are going in the future? How do you think about your future vision, plans, strategy, and still stay present?

Being and doing aren't mutually exclusive. Extremes exist where a person is mostly in the dimension of being (e.g., a reclusive monk) or in the dimension of doing (e.g., a single mom holding down 2 jobs while trying to raise her family). Aside from your role in society, some people are naturally inclined toward one dimension more than the other. I once heard Eckhart Tolle describe his predisposition for being, whereas his close friend Oprah Winfrey is highly gifted in doing. He has also differentiated these dimensions through the biblical story of Jesus visiting Mary (being) and Martha (doing).

For most of us, it is a balance between the two. That balance may change over time, depending on where you are in our spiritual journey.

The more grounded you are in presence, the easier it is to stay present while navigating the world of doing. Not only are you less likely to be possessed by the ego, but the quality of your work is greatly improved, due to directly channeling the Consciousness that you are. Creativity and energy naturally arise from presence. Insights will come to you more easily, and will guide your path.

You can still plan for your career, hobbies, etc. but it is all about the journey toward those goals, independent of achieving the goals themselves. Whether or not you become a world-famous violinist, you can still genuinely enjoy each step toward learning how to play the violin.

[Chrisd]

On 15-6-2021 at 9:55 PM, Vision said:

For people who have done meditation retreats, do you often experience an ego backlash afterwards?

No, and I've done 30-40 (between 1-10 days) of them.

[everythingisnothing]

I‘ve done a zen retreat for 5 days and it was one of the most challenging things in my life. I left with a few hours of deepened presence and a few insights about projection and impermanence. But it was not worth it, so that I would repeat it again. I didn’t notice a backlash though.

Instead I organized my own retreat with a friend and we had our own schedule, integrating mindful movement, the option to fall asleep and sit against the wall. It gave me almost the same presence I had after the zen retreat and it felt more like love and joy. I would definitely repeat that!?

[Chrisd]

On 20-6-2021 at 7:53 PM, lark said:

@Moksha Always nice to read your posts!

                     People want to believe that awakening is the cure for all of their suffering, but it is only the beginning.

                     Couldn't agree more. Love!

Just to clarify, you mean awakening as an experience? As in different from enlightenment? If not, I'd like to enrich your perspective. Enlightenment can be defined as the end of suffering. First case in point would be Gautama Buddha himself with his fourth noble truth: there is a path out of suffering.  Other cases proving the point are Roger Castillo, as he describes it in his videos:

And his teacher: Ramesh Balsekar , Gary Weber, and possibly Cornelius Christopher. 

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Chrisd

[Moksha]

1 hour ago, Chrisd said:

Just to clarify, you mean awakening as an experience? As in different from enlightenment?

Awakening as a direct experience is profound. But it doesn't guarantee perpetual vigilance. It is just the first step on the enlightenment journey. Learning to stay awake is the real work of spirituality.

[Vision]

On 7/1/2021 at 8:13 AM, Moksha said:

He has also differentiated these dimensions through the biblical story of Jesus visiting Mary (being) and Martha (doing).

Could you elaborate on this? 
 

On 7/1/2021 at 8:13 AM, Moksha said:

Extremes exist where a person is mostly in the dimension of being (e.g., a reclusive monk) or in the dimension of doing (e.g., a single mom holding down 2 jobs while trying to raise her family).

Why don’t we all aim to be mostly in the dimension of being like a monk?

 

On 7/1/2021 at 8:13 AM, Moksha said:

For most of us, it is a balance between the two. That balance may change over time, depending on where you are in our spiritual journey.

Would you say that as we spiritually develop ourselves, we orient ourselves more towards Being?

On 7/1/2021 at 8:13 AM, Moksha said:

You can still plan for your career, hobbies, etc. but it is all about the journey toward those goals, independent of achieving the goals themselves. Whether or not you become a world-famous violinist, you can still genuinely enjoy each step toward learning how to play the violin.

True. It’s all about the process. 
 

When it comes to meditation retreats however, the process is seldom enjoyable. What would you say about the act of forcing yourself to pushing through a meditation retreat as a means to an end (e.g. spiritual progress)?

[thisintegrated]

For Greens, yes.

And, statistically, 99.8% of people who go on such retreats are Green.

[Shmurda]

On 6/17/2021 at 10:31 AM, Moksha said:

... Calling nothing their own, they purify their hearts and rejoice. Well trained in the seven fields of enlightenment, their senses disciplined and free from attachments, they live in freedom, full of light.

- The Dhammapada 6:85-88

In case anyone is wondering, this is a reference to the "seven factors of awakening". You should study these factors and make sure they are present and at balance in your life if you want to be awakened. 

[Moksha]

10 hours ago, Vision said:

Could you elaborate on this? 

Tolle describes the biblical story of Jesus visiting Mary and Martha, who are sisters. Martha is running around the house, making preparations for a gathering, while Mary sits at the feet of Jesus. 

38 Now it happened as they went that He entered a certain village; and a certain woman named Martha welcomed Him into her house. 39 And she had a sister called Mary, who also sat at Jesus’ feet and heard His word. 40 But Martha was distracted with much serving, and she approached Him and said, “Lord, do You not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Therefore tell her to help me.”

41 And Jesus answered and said to her, “Martha, Martha, you are worried and troubled about many things. 42 But one thing is needed, and Mary has chosen that good part, which will not be taken away from her.”

- Luke 10:38-42

Tolle's point is that there is a time for being (Mary sitting at the feet of Jesus) and a time for doing (Martha busily engaged in preparing food).  Spiritual seekers often have a predisposition toward being vs. doing, but still find it necessary to navigate between these dimensions throughout our life, based on the circumstances of the moment.

Quote

 

Why don’t we all aim to be mostly in the dimension of being like a monk?

Would you say that as we spiritually develop ourselves, we orient ourselves more towards Being?

When it comes to meditation retreats however, the process is seldom enjoyable. What would you say about the act of forcing yourself to pushing through a meditation retreat as a means to an end (e.g. spiritual progress)?

 

Wish there was a universal answer, but it depends on each person's circumstances. Someone may become overwhelmed in the world of work, and suffer tremendously from stress, anxiety, and bone-deep weariness. If significant enough, the suffering can eventuate in their awakening, without any deliberate direction toward being.

Others may spend decades meditating in a monastery, with all of their physical needs freely provided, and still not awaken.

After his awakening, Tolle spent 3 years simply being. He sat on park benches and observed nature and people. Then he felt a profound need to ask the universe to accelerate his transition into doing. He was ready to act on the insights he had gained following his awakening, which eventually led to "The Power of Now".

The same overall pattern was true for me, different in some details, but I won't go into that here.

My perspective on meditation is that if you are forcing it, you aren't doing it right. It does require diligence, but the diligence naturally arises when you are ripe for the lessons that meditation will teach you. The conditioned mind responds most readily when gently and lovingly guided, rather than when fiercely reprimanded, like a stubborn child. When you begin to realize the fruits of meditation, it becomes its own reward, and the practice is self-sustaining.