One of the most important thing to understand about women

[bejapuskas]

@Windappreciator I think we agree. I thought I might have misunderstood you. I know very well what intrusive thoughts are like. But I take it as my responsibility to make the women around me feel safe and also to act in a way that does not exploit this feeling.

@Gesundheit2  Yeh I mean, it's fine. It is very hard to step outside of the box while you are still inside it. It is sad to me that we have such high cultural diversity here and we pay so little attention to it. It can be utilized to enhance learning but we do not do it. I also live in one of the safest countries in the world. But I guess the women here were not exaggerating and as far as I know, Emerald, mivafofa and Etherial Cat also live in the first world, yet they are victims of multiple rape / sexual assault occasions. It's really sad man. Stage Green is so demonized here.

[Preety_India]

There was a point in my life where I faced sexual assaults almost every day.

Now because of corona, some relief in that direction.

Try being a woman in India. It feels like hell.

Constant fear of rape.

Not exaggerating at all.

 

 

[Preety_India]

 

India is notorious for gang rapes 

 

[bejapuskas]

@Gesundheit2  I think this forum has some sort of stage Blue and stage Green shadow. I mean Leo says in his videos like everything is relative, take 100% responsibility, good = evil etc... And that's all nice, but one can certainly misinterpret what Leo is communicating and take it to the extreme, which is what people are doing. It's annoying how there are still some topics that are taboo, like people do not talk about sex in school as much. Like the topic is so important, but they spend more time explaining fucking atoms. That's hilarious, their value hierarchy is ridiculously stupid. Information about atoms is something most people will never need, but everyone needs to be educated about romance, intimacy, sex, gender... You just cannot possibly avoid these topics. As well as many other things like politics, race, emotional intelligence etc... I mean if everything is relative, then like the only thing that matters in terms of morality is getting what you want, except that idea sounds morbid. I guess people need to have this collective sense of self in order to really feel this.

[soos_mite_ah]

1 hour ago, bejapuskas said:

 I think this forum has some sort of stage Blue and stage Green shadow.

The longer  I'm on this forum, the more I feel that a lot of the people are are orange but they think they are yellow. They have the blue shadow because they are at orange but they also are resistant to green because it is seen as lower in consciousness compared to yellow. I feel that a lot of people on here are so quick to point out the short comings of green without fully integrating it into themselves. 

1 hour ago, bejapuskas said:

It's annoying how there are still some topics that are taboo, like people do not talk about sex in school as much. Like the topic is so important, but they spend more time explaining fucking atoms. That's hilarious, their value hierarchy is ridiculously stupid. Information about atoms is something most people will never need, but everyone needs to be educated about romance, intimacy, sex, gender... You just cannot possibly avoid these topics. As well as many other things like politics, race, emotional intelligence etc...

I also think it's important to take things like race, politics, and gender into consideration when discussing things related to romance, sex, and intimacy because those things don't exist in a vacuum (ESPECIALLY when it comes to gender issues). We need to stop treating issues like sexual assault and racism in dating as some type of one off horror story and see it in a more systemic way. I think that's what's wrong with this forum. For women, the stories on here don't shock us because it's so common but men tend to see this in a context of an isolated case which then results in them perpetuating a lot of the bs that further perpetuate the issue. 

[Igor82]

I read everything up until page 18; what a beautiful tread! I brought out the snacks for this one.

I think that all sexual and relationship problems between men and women stem from lack of understanding the truth of the other person's perspective. Where intimacy lies in expressing radical honesty - to share one's perspective with another. For if the man was truly interested in hearing the perspective of the woman, there would be no problem for the woman, vice versa. For some reason, men and women have a hard time understanding each other's perspectives. I judge men who don't understand the importance of understanding the woman for intimacy to even be enjoyed, to be unwise. 

From my experience of doing cold approaches with radical honesty, it seems obvious to me that the majority of women are unwilling to truly listen to the man's perspective, understandably as many men can be labeled "predictable" and "sneaky - hiding their true intentions". 

But tell me, whenever you as a woman feel the vibe that the man hides his intentions, or "just wants sex", do you ever tell him outright -your perspective- that "you think that he just wants to have sex with you and that he hides his intentions?" This will bring the problems right up to the surface to be processed. I'm saying that it's effective for intimacy to occur when all the "assumptions about the other person" are brought to light. Because assumptions are by definition false, where intimacy entails the correcting of assumptions.

Understanding each other doesn't happen until a person gets thoughts that match the reality about the other person. Both people can reach a full understanding of each other while still being "man and woman": Where they can understand that they are both turning each other on.

And so, the solution to all sexual and relationship problems is where everybody communicates in a way that makes other people understand them, where understanding leads to "consent" (understanding consent). Thus: 

• if you as a woman are dealing with a drunk guy, then maybe it's inappropriate for you to expect that he will understand your "subtle cues". Be more explicit with words.
• If you as a woman are dealing with men approaching you, seek to understand their perspective and probe that understanding by explicating your thoughts and feelings to him! This forces him to be honest.
• If you are a man, always explicate your truth. Same for women. Seek to be understood with your truth, especially in your intimate relationship investments.
• If you are a woman and you know that you live in a society where men are prone to be unwilling to understand your perspective, please be honest about it: while you wear a pepper spray to reduce risking having your physical boundaries be crossed.
• If you are afraid that if you express your feelings that the other person might dislike it; <- express that! 

I know that I am attractive (because I turn myself on). And so, Girls who reject me without understanding me are not willing to understand me. That makes me turned off. I, as a man, get turned on by women who are open to understanding my perspective, because it fits perfectly with my willingness to understand hers. I feel satisfied enough with the love I give to myself at the moment that I don't need an intimate relationship with a woman because I already have an intimate relationship with the woman within myself!!

And so, a woman who is not interested in understanding me is missing out on me. Here where I live in Sweden, the majority of women that I approach seem either:

1. Not willing to understand my perspective (for reasons; Projection, fear, boyfriend, busy, etc)
2. Showing unattractive features which makes me disinterested in the investment of understanding her perspective any further (in case of fulfilling the purpose of the approach which is to have an intimate relationship.)
3. A combination of 1 & 2.

It's rare for me to find a girl who is willing to open herself up to true intimacy and understanding right of the bat, where it's extremely rare for me to find a girl who radiates self-love, radical honesty & curiosity for the perspectives of men, where she explicates all her feelings and thoughts to him unconditionally, prompting him to do the same. Such a girl will attract a partner who values radical honesty and will unconditionally explicate their own perspective to her, where they both are full of self-love, they will enjoy a fantastic interdependent relationship. Although it's very rare that such people will even meet: As it seems like the majority are stuck in a state of unwillingness to truly and directly understand each other. Afraid of intimacy as it seems.

Note that a "subtle signal" ("implicit") is actually an explicit signal if the other person verifies that they understand. I love "subtle cues" and it's a great form of communication, only if it's clear that they are understood.

- - - - -

We are great at misunderstanding each other, until all the rape, abuse, pain and suffering will force us to empower effective solutions; such as simply telling the truth and prompting others to do the same.

All rape would cease if the people committing rape would truly understand how it feels to be the one getting raped.

 

[integral]

21 hours ago, Nahm said:

Yes it is indeed offensive. Can you put yourself in their shoes? Can you sincerely, viscerally imagine getting raped, and then listening to someone imply you should have been more responsible, because ‘no amount of education about consent is going to get that kid to keep it in his pants’?

Yes that interpretation is offensive. Standard blue/orange rape apologist paradigm. 

She is not responsible for the rape but its unavoidable many of the time, to be told this is often offensive, its a delicate subject, both have a responsibility in the matter, to do their best in making the best decisions they can and to be educated.

• no amount of education about consent is going to get that kid to keep it in his pants =  its unavoidable many of the time
• Both sides need to take responsibility = both have a responsibility in the matter, to do there best in making the best decisions they can and to be educated
• But this narrative is offensive to women. They don't want to hear it. = She is not responsible for the rape but its unavoidable many of the time, to be told this is often offensive, its a delicate subject 

I didn't realize how what i was writing was going to be skewed, nor did i know how to avoid all the pitfalls, Its not easy crafting the right sentence in this situation. To navigate the trauma. 

If that didn't clear this up, i give up. I just rewrote the same thing over and over different ways hoping the right interpretation would "click" for people. Never happened.  

No amount of education would of helped: Is a misunderstanding of what it means to be educated. A resilience from stress/trauma is worth educating, let alone a long list of other factors that would help. 

All the women on the forum know this. Great, it was never directed to them. There are men and women here as well and around the world. We are talking ages 14-20 education, We are talking deep relationship understanding, that people struggle with for a life time. We are talking multiple-cultures. Not just the direct experience or level of knowledge of the women on the forum in the cultures there in. Montreal being higher orange/green, the women i know are not living in chronic fear in a hostile environment. When my hot blond sister moved to Thailand i warned her to be carful not to be alone in certain areas, the culture is different, she dismissed it for being overly paranoid and fearful. In reality i was communicating a world she never experienced. 

if there is a silver lining, the comments the women have responded with had some great insights that added to the topic.

 

21 hours ago, bejapuskas said:

@kai0 I am glad you understand that rape is never alright. The reason why girls wear clothes like this is often exactly because they are slut shamed by their environments. They want to rebel against that by what they wear. Have you never rebelled? Isn't it kind of natural to rebel? 

There is some truth in the rape apologists paradigm, just like there is truth and insights as a foundation for all paradigms. Yoga pants are perceived by many men as a highly sexual piece of attire. That's a variable in the system. Can we state variables with out implied hidden implications? Does everyone see there is no hidden implications here? Implications are a separate exploration. 

I've communicated this to women I've dated and friends, random responses: 

• I have the right to wear wtv i want.
• I didn't know that, I wear it because its comfortable. - Conditioned to wear it by culture. Clueless.
• That sounds awful. - Sympathy 
• You must not like yoga pants then. - Insight into how i must feel. 
• So your saying its my fault if a man rapes me? - Experienced as blame
• Its not my problem.

When a man says, "Yoga pants rapes my field of vision, its exhausting", hes saying "Do you understand how i feel?", "Do you understand my experience?", he is not saying "Its your fault and responsibility"

Edited June 29, 2021 by integral

[RendHeaven]

@integral bro learn when to give up lol

[bejapuskas]

12 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

The longer  I'm on this forum, the more I feel that a lot of the people are are orange but they think they are yellow. They have the blue shadow because they are at orange but they also are resistant to green because it is seen as lower in consciousness compared to yellow. I feel that a lot of people on here are so quick to point out the short comings of green without fully integrating it into themselves. 

I also think it's important to take things like race, politics, and gender into consideration when discussing things related to romance, sex, and intimacy because those things don't exist in a vacuum (ESPECIALLY when it comes to gender issues). We need to stop treating issues like sexual assault and racism in dating as some type of one off horror story and see it in a more systemic way. I think that's what's wrong with this forum. For women, the stories on here don't shock us because it's so common but men tend to see this in a context of an isolated case which then results in them perpetuating a lot of the bs that further perpetuate the issue. 

@soos_mite_ah  Preach. There is this thread about toxic green where a user describes how they are triggered by toxic green without giving examples of toxic green. And many people except a few (for example Leo) just reply in a way that assumes they all agree on what toxic green is. It was kind of concerning for me to read that thread. I don't think people here understand Green. This forum is definitely Orange centered, people care about being right, social status, how others perceive them, proving themselves right... If we instead used the cultural diversity, considering each other's feelings and traumas, looked at things with more patience and non-judgemental mindset... 

And you are totally right about looking at things in a systemic way. One might say they believe in the equality of the sexes but they might simultaneously have an irrational racial preference that is not supported by any life expeience and is left unquestioned in their minds. Then one is not really a feminist because they do not perceive all women as equal. (I just don't believe in racial preference being a thing, it is nonsense) I get hit on by gay men a lot and I thought a lot about gender in the past and I think my reaction to when a gay man approaches me even though I am straight is not by any means a reaction of disgust. But like I don't see people reflecting on things like that here and connecting the dots. There is so much stage Blue xenophobia here. Questioning your biases does not just mean "becoming somehow enlightened", but it also means practical stuff, questioning the biases that kill people on the systemic level (such as homophobia, transphobia, racism, misogyny...) in one self.

[bejapuskas]

@Igor82 Do you think the girls on this thread have shown understanding of the male perspective from reading the first 18 pages?

@integral  Stop saying stage blue bullcrap. What you contribute to this thread is causing so much trauma to get triggered, it's disgusting you are still continuing to do this. You are only saying the obvious and giving advice to women that does not work. Mivafofa literally does martial arts as her life purpose and it does not help her. Education is the way and yes, in 1 on 1 relationships (where rape can also happen for your information) it makes a huge difference. 

[integral]

11 hours ago, integral said:

There is some truth in the rape apologists paradigm, just like there is truth and insights as a foundation for all paradigms. Yoga pants are perceived by many men as a highly sexual piece of attire. That's a variable in the system. Can we state variables with out implied hidden implications? Does everyone see there is no hidden implications here? Implications are a separate exploration. 

I've communicated this to women I've dated and friends, random responses: 

• I have the right to wear wtv i want.
• I didn't know that, I wear it because its comfortable. - Conditioned to wear it by culture. Clueless.
• That sounds awful. - Sympathy 
• You must not like yoga pants then. - Insight into how i must feel. 
• So your saying its my fault if a man rapes me? - Experienced as blame
• Its not my problem.

When a man says, "Yoga pants rapes my field of vision, its exhausting", hes saying "Do you understand how i feel?", "Do you understand my experience?", he is not saying "Its your fault and responsibility"

@bejapuskas Lets extract the points/ideas:

• To entertain an idea with out believing in it, To entertain a paradigm/perspective with out believing in it
• All paradigms have grains of truth to them, that are a foundation for the self-deception that warps reality to suit it. 
• Stating the variable in a system does not have inherit implications.
• Implications are a separate exploration. 
• Everyone want to know if people understand there experience and how they feel. It does not have alternative implications. 

Everyone see how this is not blue? <----- How I'm not giving advice to women about what to wear?

Understanding How Paradigms Work

Edited June 29, 2021 by integral

[bejapuskas]

@integral  The grains of truth in your ideas are the roots of inequality and corruption in society. We already know what happens if you entertain the points you are trying to make, it is reality and it is horrible. We understand. Especially the girls here understand these points through first hand experience, for example victim blaming, slut shaming etc... There is a need to have a strong moral foundation in a society, otherwise you would have been raped and killed long ago. You are not being profound here.

[Nahm]

@integral

I appreciate what you’re saying, and it’s entirely possible I am holding a bias which I am not seeing, and projecting onto or misinterpreting what you are saying. If so, my apologies. 

[Windappreciator]

On 28.6.2021 at 6:06 PM, bejapuskas said:

@Windappreciator I think we agree. I thought I might have misunderstood you. I know very well what intrusive thoughts are like. But I take it as my responsibility to make the women around me feel safe and also to act in a way that does not exploit this feeling.

@Gesundheit2

No shame in that. Thank you for doing so.

3 hours ago, integral said:

@bejapuskas Lets extract the points/ideas:

• To entertain an idea with out believing in it, To entertain a paradigm/perspective with out believing in it
• All paradigms have grains of truth to them, that are a foundation for the self-deception that warps reality to suit it. 
• Stating the variable in a system does not have inherit implications.
• Implications are a separate exploration. 
• Everyone want to know if people understand there experience and how they feel. It does not have alternative implications. 

Everyone see how this is not blue? <----- How I'm not giving advice to women about what to wear?

Understanding How Paradigms Work

People love it when you care about them and not simply spit philosophy onto them.

[Etherial Cat]

On 27/06/2021 at 2:50 AM, knakoo said:

Thank you for sharing all of this. I am genially impressed by the time and care you take trying to help people on this forum  

And yes the whole culture around consent is really quite sad...

This whole conversation reminds me how, as a teenage boy in a bus, an older man put a vest between me and him and tried to touch me. My first reaction was to freeze. Events like this probably happen to a lot of people.

Oh, thank you a lot for your kind words .

I really like engaging in this forum. It's like an applied philosophy space.  And a lot of people here are very thoughtful and we all seek for a better comprehension of how reality functions. It makes it especially worthwhile to engage in discussions.

But unfortunately, due to the fact that there aren't so many women posting, I spend a lot of time writing about what I perceive as toxic beliefs, inaccurate depictions or misconception about femininity or the feminine experience in general.

As written by other members on this thread, there is a serious problem of Green integration in this forum. And it's particularly bad because one can see that a lot of individuals are convinced to be criticising Green from above when they are in fact totally oblivious to Green concepts. And it makes me spend a lot of time explaining Green and why it is valuable. 

Green brings a lot of feminine energy back in the spiral as such as emotions, beingness, community, compassion, care... And it doesn't suit those who are struggling with their feminine. A lot of men here are trying to maximize on masculine energy and they see the feminine as as source of disempowerment and as something which comes secondary. So there is a lot of contempt towards Green. Especially because it is still under Yellow. And curiously, somewhat people forget that Turquoise correct again the imbalances of Yellow and "succeeds" where Green fails.

But the hardest thing when it comes to the forum, is that unconsciously or consciously some of these men really don't like when a woman or someone with a feminine energy tell them they are not holding the superior perspective. Because they see it as losing to someone feminine as some sort of humiliation... as per the rank it holds in their mind. Like they are being diminished in their own masculinity. So it makes it even harder to be heard. 

A lot of people here hold the belief that being masculine is to dominate and submit the feminine, when in fact the feminine is in control of what it wants and only surrender when it's correctly approached (...) And this pattern shows also a lot in the rape dynamic. Consent is respecting the autonomy and sovereinty of women, listening, being attuned and be willing to take a no if necessary. There is this feeling of entitlement towards femininity.

Other than that- sorry to hear about your experience as a teenage boy. Creepy stories like that happened to a few guys I know. They usually remain totally quiet about it because there is a lot of taboo surrending sexual aggressions from other men. 

Freezing is one of the defense mechanism we hold as human. The typical freeze, flight or fight. A lot of rape victim freeze.

 

 

[Etherial Cat]

On 27/06/2021 at 9:12 AM, Peter Miklis said:

That's sad. Sorry for your friend.

Yes. It's awful. 

She is deeply traumatized and her life is still massively impacted by it nearly 12 years after.

The guy who did it never got caught by the police, unfortunately. So she never got the chance to feel a sense of justice. She's eaten alive by the resentment she's got against him.

But an extra trauma for her was how she was received by the police. She was guilt tripped for being raped as she was out at night (her mother had refused to pick her up at the bus station and she had to walk the distance between it and her house alone). They also asked her what she was wearing as one of the very first questions. They werent properly trained to address rape victim.

One of the worst aspect of this story is that... nobody talked about it. Absolutely nothing happened. I used to live very close to her place and I didnt hear about the story anywhere, she had to tell herself the story through social media. Nothing in the local newspaper. Not warnings of all kind. And since that they I have concluded that most rape occuring are totally unheard off by most of the population, even those particularly gross ones that involves snapping a teenager in the street and raping them violently.

For it to be talked about, they've got to be reported to the press and interest them. The immense majority of them do not make the cut. And it's particularly bad because anyway the number of rape reported to the police is already low in itself. 

 

 

[Windappreciator]

@Etherial Cat optimally police minds are to be transcended to deal with rape victims.

[Etherial Cat]

27 minutes ago, Windappreciator said:

@Etherial Cat optimally police minds are to be transcended to deal with rape victims.

I'm not sure to understand you. What would be an example of police mind transcendence?

[Windappreciator]

@Etherial Cat Poor cat doesn't understand me. 

One can repeat what good morality maps to from some code and one can embody good morality and give form naturally.

[bejapuskas]

@Windappreciator  I also did not understand. What it police mind transcendence?