One of the most important thing to understand about women

[MatteO22]

29 minutes ago, integral said:

I'm saying ALL men have strong urges to do these things

Just cause me have them doesn’t make them acceptable to be acted out.

Pedophiles have urges to fuck children. And fucking a child will never be okay. 
 

What you’re saying is like… well some men have urges to beat their wives, we should embrace a culture of wife-beaters, we wouldn’t wanna oppress those men would we …

[integral]

@MatteO22 No im not lol. Im saying she is in shock of the male perspective. 

Everything i said was to add to emeralds testimony by showing the male perspective in these situations. I fully sympathize with the female perspective/struggle. 

All men have these urges and its shocking for women to even comprehend it. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by integral

[MatteO22]

7 minutes ago, integral said:

Im saying the desire is there, thats it. 

I think you’re dancing on the edge of being an apologist for rapists. Not to sound too dramatic but desire has nothing to do with anything.

 

Were not entitled to have all our desires fulfilled all the time. It’s only when you live in a reality where you feel entitled to your urges being satisfied, what you say will actually have relevance.

Even when you say ‘most men restrain themselves’ - as if they were some champions or something. To not have your desires fulfilled all the time is the most basic thing you learn early in life, where it’s much more important to make sure that your desires don’t violate the free will and freedoms of other people, and the moment they do you’re starting to enter the territory of abuse.

 

The priority to respect the free will of another person comes before everything else, thus the fact that men have these urges is not relevant in the given context. That’s the one thing that distinguishes you from an abuser - do I prioritise respect for others over my fleeting desires. 

[Etherial Cat]

1 hour ago, integral said:

This might be a kneejerk reaction/culture shock to the male perspective. 

I don't think there is a culture shock to the male perspective going on there. 

I'm a trained lawyer ?. I know exactly what qualifies as rape. If you penetrate someone while they are asleep and they haven't consented, this is it.

Of course, If your partner enjoys it and want sex, then you're lucky because it means that they were in. But If she/he wakes up and get offended, then what?

Meanwhile, "stimulating" a girl who is asleep is a potential sexual assault. Same applies for how it is received in a nutshell.

I think of course, depending on context and the relationship it's safe to assume your partner will be down for some of it. But sometimes, due to what I read on this forum I'm skeptical that these type of boundary breach are not occuring. So I just want to issue a caveat...

38 minutes ago, integral said:

@MatteO22 No im not lol. Im saying she is in shock of the male perspective. 

Everything i said was to add to emeralds testimony by showing the male perspective in these situations. I fully sympathize with the female perspective/struggle. 

Nope this is not the male perspective. I don't think a lot of guys I know hold your view.

33 minutes ago, MatteO22 said:

I think you’re dancing on the edge of being an apologist for rapists. Not to sound too dramatic but desire has nothing to do with anything.

 

Were not entitled to have all our desires fulfilled all the time. It’s only when you live in a reality where you feel entitled to your urges being satisfied, what you say will actually have relevance.

Even when you say ‘most men restrain themselves’ - as if they were some champions or something. To not have your desires fulfilled all the time is the most basic thing you learn early in life, where it’s much more important to make sure that your desires don’t violate the free will and freedoms of other people, and the moment they do you’re starting to enter the territory of abuse.

 

The priority to respect the free will of another person comes before everything else, thus the fact that men have these urges is not relevant in the given context. That’s the one thing that distinguishes you from an abuser - do I prioritise respect for others over my fleeting desires. 

Exactly what I was thinking. So thanks for writing this. 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Etherial Cat

[integral]

"It's selfish and rapey to feel horny and prey on an unconscious body. " 

@MatteO22 Nearly all men have experience this desire and restrained them selves or suppressed it or let it go or used better judgment to not act on it. I say this to help women understand the male perspective. This is likely hard wired some how and statistically means some men will act on it. I say this so to add to this topic, not to discredit it, broadening our understanding of the whole. 

I then added a bit of nuance mentioning a context where its acceptable.  

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by integral

[integral]

45 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

Nope this is not the male perspective. I don't think a lot of guys I know hold your view.

You've never been a 14-20 year old man. 

How many times do you think your father or uncle or brother or best friend looked at your ass? How many men and how many times do you think your ass is looked at every day by random people/coworkers? 

Saying this again to expand on the female perspective. It worst then you guys realize. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by integral

[Etherial Cat]

22 minutes ago, integral said:

You've never been a 14-20 year old man. 

How many times do you think your father or uncle or brother or best friend looked at your ass? How many men and how many times do you think your ass is looked at every day by random people/coworkers? 

What's your point here ?  That it's okay for them to rape my ass If I fall asleep ? 

Beside, I don't mean to be rude but I don't think it is very common to look at relative as sex material.

41 minutes ago, integral said:

"It's selfish and rapey to feel horny and prey on an unconscious body. " 

@MatteO22 Nearly all men have experience this desire and restrained them selves or suppressed it or let it go or used better judgment to not act on it. I say this to help women understand the male perspective. This is likely hard wired some how and statistically means some men will act on it. I say this so to add to this topic, not to discredit it, broadening our understanding of the whole. 

I then added a bit of nuance mentioning a context where its acceptable.  

 

I find it strange that you are fixating on "It's selfish and rapey to feel horny and prey on an unconscious body. "

Because there is nothing uncommon about it. It's even like a "duh" thing. What do you have to object against it?

What you seem to be saying for the last posts is that men desire sexually women ( which we already know). That some of these men will act on it. Which we also know.  But i dont get what is your train of thought beside that? 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Etherial Cat

[integral]

I give up. 

[Windappreciator]

@Etherial Cat He has a point, cat. Men desire your body even if you sleep or are not in the mood or even if you don't find him attractive.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Windappreciator

[bejapuskas]

7 hours ago, integral said:

@Emerald I've never done any of these things do to being raised well. But there was definitely a very strong urge to do them when i found my self in any of does situations. Just trying to add to what was said. Its not a blame game, there is something hard wired about this and its very hard to resist. The men at blame are the ones that didn't. 

@integral  It is kinda stupid when somebody talks about a problem they have and you say "oh, but it is not my fault, I never did this". Do you realize how inconsiderate that is? Imagine a friend comes to you and says: "I need to tell you something, I am seeing things, hearing things, I have schizophrenia, I am afraid to tell my parents because I think they would judge me or send me to a psychiatrist. I feel so bad because what is happening to me is not in my control." And you answer like: "Yeah, but why are you saying this to me, I did not cause your condition..? Sure, some guys can potentially put bunch of LSD into your drink and cause some sort of hallucinations to awaken in a person, but not me!" - Here, you missed the point. Do you see what I am pointing at?

3 hours ago, integral said:

I'm saying ALL men have strong urges to do these things, single, in these kinds of situations especially younger men. Most restrain themselves. Relationships are different, your already having sex, the urge is no longer there, its instead done as a fun game. 

That's not a good relationship advice. You better communicate with your partner. You never know, so many girls have been fingered in their sleep and you might just assume after having sex with them 20 times that they would love this. And you do it and they wake up and their traumatic reaction is triggered. Also not all men have strong urges, there are also people who don't want sex.

3 hours ago, MatteO22 said:

@Etherial Cat also in my example, it was the guy who was sleeping (‘sleep humping’) and the girl engaged in sex with him. So technically the girl in this case would be the offender ? Anywho of course it’s a very rare and extremely unique case. But it just shows how weird and difficult the sexual dynamics can be.

 

I also had a female friend who always complained how she hated that guys in nightclubs just touch and grab you all the time (which I agree with), and yet once when she was drunk and was hugging me goodbye, she grabbed my butt… what a hypocrite! ? 

Men can certainly get sexually abused. In fact, some members on this forum have and they have shared their stories. But I guess the number of women who deny this is lower than that of men denying women get raped this often... You get my point, no? But of course, if a guy gets raped by a girl, it is equally horrible. 

[bejapuskas]

2 hours ago, integral said:

All men have these urges and its shocking for women to even comprehend it. 

Women know very well about urges. But it is just not sexy to act on them when they do not feel like it. 

If anybody here denies that men can be raped, then I will give them a warning, but so far that has not happened, in fact, many of these female users here have shown understanding of the "male perspective". It's chill, nobody is denying your reality here. I know maybe people have done that to you in the past and you might be hurt, but please don't be. We are different people from those who have denied your reality, yeh?

[bejapuskas]

@Windappreciator  She already knows. And it does not justify action nor does it count as consent.

[MatteO22]

1 minute ago, bejapuskas said:

@integral  It is kinda stupid when somebody talks about a problem they have and you say "oh, but it is not my fault, I never did this". Do you realize how inconsiderate that is? Imagine a friend comes to you and says: "I need to tell you something, I am seeing things, hearing things, I have schizophrenia, I am afraid to tell my parents because I think they would judge me or send me to a psychiatrist. I feel so bad because what is happening to me is not in my control." And you answer like: "Yeah, but why are you saying this to me, I did not cause your condition..? Sure, some guys can potentially put bunch of LSD into your drink and cause some sort of hallucinations to awaken in a person, but not me!" - Here, you missed the point. Do you see what I am pointing at?

That's not a good relationship advice. You better communicate with your partner. You never know, so many girls have been fingered in their sleep and you might just assume after having sex with them 20 times that they would love this. And you do it and they wake up and their traumatic reaction is triggered. Also not all men have strong urges, there are also people who don't want sex.

Men can certainly get sexually abused. In fact, some members on this forum have and they have shared their stories. But I guess the number of women who deny this is lower than that of men denying women get raped this often... You get my point, no? But of course, if a guy gets raped by a girl, it is equally horrible. 

For sure, I was sort of erratically sharing a story I had in my mind that was out of context.

 

Regardless the comment I made was timed unfortunately, I haven’t been reading a lot of the discussion when I made it. 

I wasn’t even trying to make the point that women can rape too, which is true but maybe a topic for another time. When I made it I was a little all over the place  oops! ??

 

but hey, I’m drowsy from my post covid vaccine symptoms so I get a pass haha 

[Windappreciator]

@bejapuskas I am aware that we are culturally mostly beyond the point of using solely desire for a body as justification.

But siding with integral for a bit, I feel like women would do better to emotionally actually accept this.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Windappreciator

[integral]

8 hours ago, integral said:

@Emerald I've never done any of these things do to being raised well. But there was definitely a very strong urge to do them when i found my self in any of does situations. Just trying to add to what was said. Its not a blame game, there is something hard wired about this and its very hard to resist. The men at blame are the ones that didn't. 

Its interesting how this was misinterpreted. i don't have a position. 

I was adding to emeralds position. Look closer. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by integral

[Etherial Cat]

2 minutes ago, Windappreciator said:

@bejapuskas I am aware that we are culturally mostly beyond the point of using solely desire for a body as justification.

But siding with integral for a bit, I feel like women would do better to emotionally actually accept this.

I fail to understand why you assume we don't know that men desire our bodies?

You'd have to clone Stevie Wonder and raise him in a sensory deprivation tank to find a human being unaware of this fact.

The whole point of the conversation is sexual assault. That means undesired sexual intercourse and they are very much something to hold men responsable for If a woman sleeps/is unconscious.

@integral

has just been stating that men have desire all over the place, like it tells us something we didnt know.

Rapist have desire. So what? Does it mean we need to start wearing the Burqa? 

What it does is that it solely give excuses for why women get assaulted. It's rape culture rethoric.

 

 

[Etherial Cat]

Beside I wasn't bothered by the first part of his post but more concerned about the second part where he "admitted on stimulating" girls in their sleep.

Again, depending on context this can work. But it's so borderline that it felt like normalizing some grey behaviour right under a post talking about assault.

Like it was stated before, a lot of men do not realize when they cross the line. Doing stuff to your girlfriend/fiancée/wife while she sleeps can be very creepy as well. 

[MatteO22]

1 minute ago, Etherial Cat said:

Again, depending on context this can work. But it's so borderline that it felt like normalizing some grey behaviour right under a post talking about assault.

Like it was stated before, a lot of men do not realize when they cross the line. Doing stuff to your girlfriend/fiancée/wife while she sleeps can be very creepy as well. 

I just wanna say that I agree, the first comment I made regarding the guy ‘sleep humping’ wasn’t meant to somehow justify non-consensual sexual activity when someone is asleep. I was more or less making a joke because I was in a funny mood, but it wasn’t anything of substance. 
 

Sometimes I can forget how far people can go to justify abusive behaviour just so they can avoid evolving through their outdated paradigm and experiencing shame, guilt and other uncomfortable feelings. 
 

So even if by some you’re being told otherwise, you’re right in what you’re saying regarding sexual assault and consent. The arguments I’ve seen being thrown at you today are just excuses and avoidance of the reality that for many is too vulnerable and uncomfortable. 

[Windappreciator]

24 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

 

 

46 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

I fail to understand why you assume we don't know that men desire our bodies?

You'd have to clone Stevie Wonder and raise him in a sensory deprivation tank to find a human being unaware of this fact.

The whole point of the conversation is sexual assault. That means undesired sexual intercourse and they are very much something to hold men responsable for If a woman sleeps/is unconscious.

@integral

has just been stating that men have desire all over the place, like it tells us something we didnt know.

Rapist have desire. So what? Does it mean we need to start wearing the Burqa? 

What it does is that it solely give excuses for why women get assaulted. It's rape culture rethoric.

 

 

No cat, not understand but accept, be fine with it emotionally not just recognize.

I don't deny that inserting into a sleeping woman without knowing if she likes it is rape.

It is not rape culture rhetoric cat. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Windappreciator

[integral]

50 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

has just been stating that men have desire all over the place, like it tells us something we didnt know.

I was communicating the mindset of the men that don't act on it. That some women might not realize is even happening. They might think they are not being fantasied about in does situations with their trusted friend that didn't act. I thought this added something. 

The second point is not advice, its not a justification, i do not recommend it. If you have good connection and you know exactly how your partner will react then its fine. I agree its even better to communicate it before hand. Its also a perspective people might not realize exists.

I speak in perspectives. There is no one here. lol

Edited June 24, 2021 by integral