One of the most important thing to understand about women

[Shin]

Just now, mandyjw said:

You are so bad. 

I just don't think that the people who needs to understand her comment, will understand a post that abstract and conceptual.

Only guys who already understand what she's complaining about would be able to decipher that comment imo.

[aaalex]

I would love to give some examples based on my experiences as a 23 year old woman who grew up in Scandinavia and currently living in Spain.

One thing I’ve noticed and learned in some of my male ”friends” over the years is that 99% all of them have been or are sexually attracted to me and will wait for the opportunity, if it ever comes. Always when I’ve left a relationship there has been some male friend who’ve tried taken the oppurtunity almost immediately, taking their shot at me when I’m most vulnerable. Which makes me sad thinking I had some authentic connection to with that individual, just to find out they were just waiting to fuck me all along.

This has made me hard trusting “male friends” and I now choose my male friends with extreme caution and will not continue the friendship if I sense there is anything I could do to “lead them on”, when I don’t want anything sexual with them. Sadly, this has happened alot and most of these dudes were typically ”a nice guy” and not some creeps.

Going back to being in a relationship, I’ve preferred being in long relationships over being single. Mostly because of unhealed childhood trauma in some ways but mainly because I’m like, super duper horny for being a female and being in a relationship is more safe than being single and hitting it off by some strangers. 

That does not mean I was always safe even being in a freaking relationship. I was together with a guy who was super childish and also was on steroids so his horniness and being too masculine was too much to handle. He did not treat me well with my emotional needs so I was not that turned on him in the end. He wanted to have sex so bad and was so needy about it, I did not have any birth control and used to use that as an excuse to not have sex with him. Sometimes though, I gave in and had “decent” sex with him but I didn’t really enjoyed it and would have preferred not having it. But I felt obligated.

At one point when we were going to sleep and he wanted to fuck, I said to him I wasn’t feeling it because of all the shit we were going through. We went to sleep and I woke up with him touching/massaging my vagina in my sleep, thinking I would change my mind in my sleep, not being able to give consent (?). I broke up with him.

 

I’m from Sweden so our society are quite different, men are men everywhere in the world but Swedes are known for being afraid of confrontation / afraid of conflicts. We have alot more of “Nice guys” pretending to have good intentions but then they’ll prey you as soon as they can. Maybe this is normal everywhere but I’ve travelled alot for longer periods to different countries in Asia and I live in Spain at the moment and male behaviour / how male approach you is super different. For example, in my Experience, males in Spain are more outgoing and can literally tell you to your face that they are interested and want to fuck. Most guys in Sweden tend to build a friendship first, thinking they might have shot sometime in the future, if opportunity comes.

I also experience that if I’m too nice in guneral to a guy will make them think I want them to hit on me immediately and in some cases I’ve had to make an excuse or literally just walk away because of this. Which is sad because I am a very loving person who thinks everyone needs love, even “idiots” who think they can use girls when they are most vulnerable. One example of this was when I smiled to random dude on the bus, which I can do to anyone regarding gender. It ended up by him trying to attack me by going of at the same bus stop as me. I was afraid of running away and indicated that I was going to scream if he tried. I think I was so hard to attack as he left me alone when I started to cry hysterically and was very afraid.

I was sexually abused several times by a male in my family when I was at an institution for drug addicts when I was a teenager. It happend during my visits to my home and I was afraid of saying anything because I was already being a drug addict which people tend to think are not trustworthy. I told my family years after and they did not take that so seriously but this happens everywhere in society.

 

The list goes on sadly by exampled but I am trying to keep the list short.

Edited June 18, 2021 by aaalex

[aaalex]

Even though my shitty experiences with men (which are one of the reasons I turned into spirituality) I don’t see myself as a victim anymore which is liberating. <3

I truly believe that no one is born this way and that we as a society and individuals, are teaching each other “This is the way!”.
I know this because I had a really dysfunctional childhood where I had to unwire my own behaviour patterns after I realized that you can’t scream or abuse your loved ones. But I had no other way of knowing as I was mimicking my own parents, this was my “normal”. The human experience is so more complicated than you’ll normally think.

If you want to solve a problem you need to go deep to the root, not blaming gender, masculinity / femininity (even though they play some role in this issue).

 

this forum and Leo was helped so much regarding my traumas with men and I am forever thankful for this, and forever thankful that this thread was created. 

[Etherial Cat]

2 hours ago, Shin said:

I just don't think that the people who needs to understand her comment, will understand a post that abstract and conceptual.

Only guys who already understand what she's complaining about would be able to decipher that comment imo.

Was it really that complex?

Tldr : Men act often from needy perception, and do not perceive the subjectivity/needs of women and tend to trespass the boundaries consciously or unconsciously.

That's also why a lot of woman complain about being "objectified". This is derived from "being not seen".

Exemples:

1) I say the blackball/redpill is garbage. Right after that, a man comes and tell me that if I say that is because I'm a delusional femoid and my fate is to enjoy the cock carrousel in my 20s until I'll settle down for a beta cuck when I'll expire. I try to argue that none of my friends have been riding the cockcarousel in their 20 because we've all been in LTR.  But still, blackpill it is ! I'm told my dream man is Chad psychopath and there is nothing to avoid my condition.  <- My subjectivity is totally overruled by his insistance that I am how he imagine I am. Intimacy is not working. I can't feel good around this person and I close off.

2) I walk in the streets. A pick up artist comes to me and ask me to remove my headphone to have a chat. I clock him and we talk pick up. After a while of discussing pick up technics, he tries to test if I'm down to fuck by giving me a big hug. That's a technic see if I'm ready to get physical but I guess he didn't know I also knew about that one. It's corona time so I tell him I'm not interested. He still wants to test my receptivity and proceed anyway. <- My personal sovereignty is totally overruled by his desire to fuck. My boundary has been trespassed. I can't trust this person and I close off.

I hope it's clear enough.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Etherial Cat

[Shin]

1 hour ago, aaalex said:

This has made me hard trusting “male friends” and I now choose my male friends with extreme caution and will not continue the friendship if I sense there is anything I could do to “lead them on”, when I don’t want anything sexual with them.

I also experience that if I’m too nice in guneral to a guy will make them think I want them to hit on me immediately and in some cases I’ve had to make an excuse or literally just walk away because of this. Which is sad because I am a very loving person who thinks everyone needs love, even “idiots” who think they can use girls when they are most vulnerable.

If you're attractive, there is no way a guy wouldn't want to fuck with you, so that's not really an option.

What you can do though, is to be more selective and learn which kind of guys are more susceptible to just be friend with you for your ass, rather than because you're a potential good friend.

I mean, if a guy is really a friend, and he really cares about you as a person, he wouldn't try to date you as soon as you break up or even a few weeks after, no matter how attracted (or in love) to you he is.

I don't think you should stop being nice to people just because of those rare situations, but yeah, depending on where you live, smiling at a stranger in the street can be associated very fast with giving a signal that you're attracted. In those situations maybe just also learn by using stereotypes which kind of guys are more susceptible to be overly pushy and asses (not simple I suppose, I have no idea how you can do that tbh ).

Thank you for sharing, and I'm happy that you're feeling liberated towards this as of now

Edited June 18, 2021 by Shin

[mivafofa]

I'd like to add in to the examples too. That was few years ago so I was still kinda clueless. But I remember inexplicably needing to create some space from this guy, so this the first subtle boundary crossing that comes in mind. 


After our first official hangout, I was teasing him about his faith and strong belief in astrology after he failing to guess my astrology twice. What I wished he wouldve done is either tease back or laugh it off with me, or show me some receipts he kept talking about.  ("Your water" was an astrology inside joke, reference of Your receipts/evidence)

Instead his answer : spanking me

I was joking around astrology and he JUST had to go there... In the moment I laughed it off because I was clueless. He spurted this suggestion out of nowhere and took on this spank challenge on his own..
And while I rejected casually and wanted to safely go back talking about astrology, he personally commited himself to this self-prompted challenge I never agreed to. And he started to escalate from there. Could you tell which type of boundary was being crossed there?
I had the creepy feeling he just needed an excuse to get physical and he was being overly aggressive about it.

Next morning I woke up.. literally and figuratively. I woke up to "... Did he just invite himself to get naughty with my ass..?" And he even called me "beyotch" a couple of time as a joke when I was trying to tease him... Somehow this was not sitting well with my conscious.  So the next day I grew cold towards him. I unconsciously needed to create a sort of wall between us. Then I realized how he wasn't giving me enough space either.

He texted me on Line. I wouldn't look up. Then he texted me on sms to look up his Line msgs + insisting to call me... That was crossing my boundaries in a subtle way by not respecting my time and space.  From that I followed my instinct to never meet him again.

------

Another subtle way I can think of on top of my head, (@Etherial Cat kinda talked about it), is when a guy is too pushy in his arguments, it usually comes with a subtle aggressive attitude (Purposely invalidate you or your feelings instead of trying to understand you, in order to push his argument forward). In this instance, he's taking up too much space at the cost of hers, and it almost "feels like" he's forcing his way onto her but with arguments. 

These examples all boils down to the woman not feeling safe physically and/or emotionally, which urges her to close off.

Edited June 18, 2021 by mivafofa

[RendHeaven]

4 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

I walk in the streets. A pick up artist comes to me and ask me to remove my headphone to have a chat. I clock him and we talk pick up. After a while of discussing pick up technics, he tries to test if I'm down to fuck by giving me a big hug. That's a technic see if I'm ready to get physical but I guess he didn't know I also knew about that one. It's corona time so I tell him I'm not interested. He still wants to test my receptivity and proceed anyway. <- My personal sovereignty is totally overruled by his desire to fuck. My boundary has been trespassed. I can't trust this person and I close off.

Has this actually happened to you??

Because that "pick up artist" is a garbage, shit-tier picker-upper (not even an artist lmao).

The whole point of pick up (done right) is that the man meet all of the woman's emotional needs first and foremost!

[RendHeaven]

@mivafofa EW, DEAR LORD.

I deeply apologize on behalf of all men 

[Shin]

11 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

Was it really that complex?

Not for me, but I was just thinking that guys who have huge problems to be sensitive to women would most likely not understand any of those sentences you wrote that's all

One hardcore incel and one hardcore and horny pick up "artist", does that happen often (like on a weekly or even daily basis) ?

[MatteO22]

10 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

I say the blackball/redpill is garbage. Right after that, a man comes and tell me that if I say that is because I'm a delusional femoid and my fate is to enjoy the cock carrousel in my 20s until I'll settle down for a beta cuck when I'll expire.

This is one of the funniest things I’ve read this week ?? you killed it. I can’t ????. Jesus. Save me lord ?????

 

12 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

My personal sovereignty is totally overruled by his desire to fuck. My boundary has been trespassed. I can't trust this person and I close off.

I get this. It’s people feeling like it’s okay to violate your boundaries. Not to shift the conversation from men but one of the people in my life who has this tendency has historically been my mother. So again, I don’t mean to dismiss female issues with toxic masculinity, not at all they’re a big problem. But this is often a human issue, not always a gendered one. Granted, women may express it differently, men may be experts at violating physical boundaries. My mom would often violate emotional and psychological ones. 
 

Ive never had a woman really violate my physical boundaries, and I’m sure I have done it many many years ago at certain points. 

[Shin]

6 minutes ago, mivafofa said:

I'd like to add in to the examples too. That was few years ago so I was still kinda clueless. But I remember inexplicably needing to create some space from this guy, so this the first subtle boundary crossing that comes in mind. 


After our first official hangout, I was teasing him about his faith and strong belief in astrology after he failing to guess my astrology twice. What I wished he wouldve done is either tease back or laugh it off with me, or show me some receipts he kept talking about.  ("Your water" was an astrology inside joke, reference of Your receipts/evidence)

Instead his answer : spanking me

I was joking around astrology and he JUST had to go there... In the moment I laughed it off because I was clueless. He spurted this suggestion out of nowhere and took on this spank challenge on his own..
And while I rejected casually and wanted to safely go back talking about astrology, he personally commited himself to this self-prompted challenge I never agreed to. And he started to escalate from there. Could you tell which type of boundary was being crossed there?
I had the creepy feeling he just needed an excuse to get physical and he was being overly aggressive about it.

Next morning I woke up.. literally and figuratively. I woke up to "... Did he just invite himself to get naughty with my ass..?" And he even called me "beyotch" a couple of time as a joke when I was trying to tease him... Somehow this was not sitting well with my conscious.  So the next day I grew cold towards him. I unconsciously needed to create a sort of wall between us. Then I realized how he wasn't giving me enough space either.

He texted me on Line. I wouldn't look up. Then he texted me on sms to look up his Line msgs + insisting to call me... That was crossing my boundaries in a subtle way by not respecting my time and space.  From that I followed my instinct to never meet him again.

------

Another subtle way I can think of on top of my head, (@Etherial Cat kinda talked about it), is when a guy is too pushy in his arguments, it usually comes with a subtle aggressive attitude (Purposely invalidate you or your feelings instead of trying to understand you, in order to push his argument forward). In this instance, he's taking up too much space at the cost of hers, and it almost "feels like" he's forcing his way onto her but with arguments. 

These examples all boils down to the woman not feeling safe physically and/or emotionally, which urges her to close off.

 

So fucking needy

 

 

[Etherial Cat]

4 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Has this actually happened to you??

Because that "pick up artist" is a garbage, shit-tier picker-upper (not even an artist lmao).

The whole point of pick up (done right) is that the man meet all of the woman's emotional needs first and foremost!

Yes. 

I don't know if a good pick up artist would manage to be of any help with my emotional needs. I need people to be genuine, authentic and be interested in my welfare. Most pick up artist are just interested in lowering down your boundaries for a while and then will go hunt another girl.

I'd say, I am too emotionally intelligent and sensitive for pick up to work. The pick up is only a facade that is hold for a while, until the guy shows his true face. I'm always interested in someone's true face at the get go.

[mivafofa]

Just now, Shin said:

 

So fucking needy

 

 

Ah no haha, i screwed up the order of the images placement here lol it was in context.  This is not that needy compared to what other shit I get from other men. The issue was not neediness here it was the boundary crossing thing. Here i edited back in

 

[Etherial Cat]

7 minutes ago, Shin said:

One hardcore incel and one hardcore and horny pick up "artist", does that happen often (like on a weekly or even daily basis) ?

I haven't been out in a while due to corona. This exemple was from last year.

I also got flashed by a man in a park who showed me his dick while I was walking last September. He started masturbating in front of me.

Men who hold incellish beliefs about women are more common than you'll know. Incels are an exaggeration, but males tend to spread crazy narrative and rumors about "how women are for real" and it misses a lot of the underlying reality behind. Yet, they are adamant that they are true.

[Shin]

4 minutes ago, mivafofa said:

Ah no haha, i screwed up the order of the images placement here lol it was in context.  This is not that needy compared to what other shit I get from other men. The issue was not neediness here it was the boundary crossing thing. Here i edited back in

 

If this is normal cringe,

I NEED MORE !

 

[RendHeaven]

1 minute ago, Etherial Cat said:

I need people to be genuine, authentic and be interested in my welfare.

Believe it or not, these qualities are not mutually exclusive with the act of "picking up" women.

In fact, the real "art" imo comes from deeply embodying these qualities.

4 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

Most pick up artist are just interested in lowering down your boundaries for a while and then will go hunt another girl.

Sadly, correct.

6 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

I'd say, I am too emotionally intelligent and sensitive for pick up to work.

I believe you.

Just keep your heart open - virtuous men exist 

[Etherial Cat]

8 minutes ago, MatteO22 said:

This is one of the funniest things I’ve read this week ?? you killed it. I can’t ????. Jesus. Save me lord ?????

 

I get this. It’s people feeling like it’s okay to violate your boundaries. Not to shift the conversation from men but one of the people in my life who has this tendency has historically been my mother. So again, I don’t mean to dismiss female issues with toxic masculinity, not at all they’re a big problem. But this is often a human issue, not always a gendered one. Granted, women may express it differently, men may be experts at violating physical boundaries. My mom would often violate emotional and psychological ones. 
 

Ive never had a woman really violate my physical boundaries, and I’m sure I have done it many many years ago at certain points. 

Yes. Boundary violation is probably one of the most common plague in our society. And you are totally right about female violating often emotional and psychological boundaries.

Our biggest issue as a collective is that we all act more or less from needy perception and fail to see the needs of others. And it's how a lot of the social violence is perpetrated. What the world needs more is intimacy.

The problem with a lot of men is that they aren't encourage to dive deep into their emotion and a lot of them lack emotional intelligence. And society (which is led mostly by misaligned masculine energy) teach men how to suppress their feminine side. So some of them become very bad at respecting boundaries.

[Etherial Cat]

8 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Believe it or not, these qualities are not mutually exclusive with the act of "picking up" women.

Yes, I totally agree. But then, does it still deserve the pick up appellation? 

Another thing that I don't like about pick up is that there is fundamentally manipulative element about it. Like an oddish desire for control. Also, it's mostly directed toward several women (like literally the art of chasing women). There is a factory farming style that I really dislike about it and find untrustworthy. 

8 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

 

Just keep your heart open - virtuous men exist 

I know! There are plenty of extraordinary men out there.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Etherial Cat

[MatteO22]

2 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

Yes. Boundary violation is probably one of the most common plague in our society.

Yeah… learning boundaries is one of the deepest processes that create healing. It is rare when people really ‘get’ boundaries and what they’re really all about, and how they actually create intimacy and not walls. A wall is not a boundary a wall is a pushing away - even when people say ‘I have my boundaries up’ - while being somewhat defensive - of course when we feel threatened we are all entitled to our walls, but boundaries (a definition I’ve heard recently that I love) are an interdependent passage way that creates the rules of intimate engagement between my heart and yours. It’s like saying ‘wanna dance ? Well this is how it’s done’. Respecting people’s boundaries is like learning and respecting the moves of Waltz in order to dance. Without knowing the moves, perhaps you’re dancing but it’s a mess and someone is probably gonna get stepped on. 

[peqkno]

Just throwing this in here: This is one of the more (most?) insightful threads I read in this sub-forum for a long time (ever?) - together with that other one which got deleted.

Thanks to everyone participating in this conversation, and all women who share their experiences! Quite some perspective change / behavior change / empathy-unleashing for me from reading this. (And yes, been "guilty" of some of the behavior described. Apologies, I didn't get any of this. )