layers of truth

[Dodo]

Just now, Mason Riggle said:

I'm one to say that 'choice' is nonsensical.  It doesn't map onto reality.   

I am one to say you cannot map reality, and that any map is wrong, it can be relatively right, but reality is too mindfucky to map 

[Dodo]

14 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Dodo semantics are important.  These subtle differences can be huge, especially when it comes to causing egos to disappear, as the illusion of ego often arises as a result of the language humans use.  

Consider that when we say, "I am thinking.." this gives rise to the notion of a 'thinker' in addition to 'thinking', however if we say, 'thinking is occurring', this leaves no room for any 'thinker' to creep in. 

Semantics are huge. 

What about peeing? Why is thinking so important, it is such a small portion of our experience! There is a pee-er. The one out of which the pee comes! Aha! 

 

But have a look at this here - the game of life. The original entry can be different, causing different results in the game later on.  In some of those the game continues indefinitely, in others it completes quicker. In third, it can create a whole other game of life on a higher level(the video posted)

Now what I claim is that perhaps the Universe or God is more advanced than you and actually has a choice what game of life to put forward and where it will be headed.

You can tell me all about how your thinking comes out of nothingness and not a thinker, but you cant tell me why events in the world happen as they do. You can't tell me why we use electricity, how we are advancing the way we do and how we "evolve". You can tell me only about your direct experience, you cannot tell me anything about the game of life. 

You can talk to me about what its like to be one character inside the supreme game of life, and honestly, we have no clue what it is to be outside of the game of life, thats how huge it is.

Here is a 2d representation: 

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Dodo

[Mason Riggle]

@Dodo it can't be mapped 100% accurately.. but maps can be 'better' and 'worse'.. 

I don't get to say, 'In reality, horses are born inside out until Santa turns them the right way round'.. and suggest that it's just a 'map' and doesn't matter how closely it maps onto reality.  It's just as good as your map. 

[Mason Riggle]

3 minutes ago, Dodo said:

You can tell me all about how your thinking comes out of nothingness and not a thinker, but you cant tell me why events in the world happen as they do. You can't tell me why we use electricity, how we are advancing the way we do and how we "evolve". You can tell me only about your direct experience, you cannot tell me anything about the game of life. 

I can say it in these terms.. whatever is occurring now, must be occurring just as it is, and could not be occurring other than how it is. 

[Dodo]

@Mason Riggle The problem here is you are having an investigation over yourself and then project the same qualities and attributes to the entire universe. It is a common problem in nonduality - you just assume it is you, because you have no other point of reference .

[Dodo]

3 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

I can say it in these terms.. whatever is occurring now, must be occurring just as it is, and could not be occurring other than how it is. 

Yeah but that is for you! From your perspective! What if I told you the Universe can make it occur other than how it is, for you it will still be how it is , simply because you have a limited perspective and can only see one thing at a time  The universe has more depth than us and it can make the impossible even if you can't. To say that it can't is to say you know the Universe's perspective! Far from the truth tho. Well i am not saying it can for sure, I am saying I have seen things to lead me to believe it. 

Im asking, what if you saw the game from a higher level, and see how the universe changes things constantly! But you only see a continuity of "how it is" from our lazy perspective as being here now always!  

Edited June 17, 2021 by Dodo

[Mason Riggle]

@Dodo and what if I said there is no separation between 'me' and 'that which is not me', and that 'my words' are actually 'the Universes words'.. similar to the way you don't consider these words as 'coming from your device', even though that's the most proximate medium that's currently delivering them to you. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Shin]

The second we try to manipulate a lucid dream, we wake up or die in it.

The second we just let everything be as it is and just enjoy it, all sort of crazy shit happen

[Mason Riggle]

4 minutes ago, Dodo said:

Yeah but that is for you! From your perspective!

From any perspective, the Universe is exactly how it is, and never other than how it is. 

[Dodo]

5 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Dodo and what if I said there is no separation between 'me' and 'that which is not me', and that 'my words' are actually 'the Universes words'.. similar to the way you don't consider these words as 'coming from your device', even though that's the most proximate medium that's currently delivering them to you. 

uuuuuuuuuuuugh, I get you man, I mean thats a common saying in nondual circles. I have heard so many times, but seriously it is easy to prove man.. Nobody has ever proven it directly to me which is weird. "There is no separation bla bla" well so is the case for my words in your paradigm... From your paradigm you should ask yourself "why is the Universe telling me that what im saying is crap".. 

But thats not my paradigm, because I clearly know that I would be lying if I said I am the entire Universe. If there is no separation, prove it by telling me something about me which only I would know. Remember, you are claiming that you are truthful when you say that you are not separate from me. Then I am not asking something big of you. Please, I await. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Dodo

[Mason Riggle]

@Dodo just because we are not separate, does not mean the organism Mason Riggle can know what the organism Dodo is thinking.  

There is no separation the same way a 'whirlpool' is not separate from a river.  The whirlpool is a function of the river.. I am a function of the entire Universe.  The words I type are a function of the organism Mason Riggle.. but it's all one big system happening all together, and the 'parts' can not be 'singled out' as the 'original cause of' any other part.. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Dodo]

4 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Dodo just because we are not separate, does not mean the organism Mason Riggle can know what the organism Dodo is thinking.  

There is no separation the same way a 'whirlpool' is not separate from a river.. you can't take a whirlpool out of a river and show it to me.  The whirlpool is a function of the river.. I am a function of the entire Universe.  The words I type are a function of the organism Mason Riggle.. but it's all one big system happening all together, and the 'parts' can not be 'singled out' as the 'original cause of' any other part.. 

ok! Now thats better, you'r a function of the Universe, not the Universe! We are getting somewhere!

Now is it possible that a function of the Universe investigates and finds that everything is "as it is always", but why would it assume that it is the same of the Universe?

If you've done coding you will know that functions are a small part of the entire program, and the programmer absolutely has a choice how to write a function and can even make changes after it is done!

 

From the function's point of view, it will just be how it is, it only ever knows "life" when the code is running, it will not know when the programmer has stopped the program to change the code for a while.... 

Now here  im saying God is the programmer, the program is the Universe and we are functions, that would be a good map.But I am nondual in the sense that I believe the programmer and the code are one, as in there is not some guy sitting and coding, but the code is coding itself

Edited June 17, 2021 by Dodo

[Mason Riggle]

1 minute ago, Dodo said:

ok! Now thats better, you'r a function of the Universe, not the Universe! We are getting somewhere!

Now is it possible that a function of the Universe investigates and finds that everything is "as it is always", but why would it assume that it is the same of the Universe?

If you've done coding you will know that functions are a small part of the entire program, and the programmer absolutely has a choice how to write a function and can even make changes after it is done!

From the function's point of view, it will just be how it is, it only ever knows "life" when the code is running, it will not know when the programmer has stopped the program to change the code for a while.... 

But don't you get that 'the programmer' is just another function?  And that it's turtles all the way down? 

[Dodo]

Just now, Mason Riggle said:

But don't you get that 'the programmer' is just another function?  And that it's turtles all the way down? 

I edited my post to show about the programmer 

[Mason Riggle]

5 minutes ago, Dodo said:

I believe the programmer and the code are one, as in there is not some guy sitting and coding, but the code is coding itself

^this is perfect.  And since the code is coding itself.. it will always code itself exactly how it desires/wants/likes to, and never any other way. 

[Dodo]

5 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

^this is perfect.  And since the code is coding itself.. it will always code itself exactly how it desires/wants/likes to, and never any other way. 

the problem is that it is not a perfect analogy also, as what this model shows is basically a matrix model, not reality. I dont believe reality is a matrix even though it could be experienced that way (I've had neo experience). It is really so mystical that even stuff like that which make sense are so far from the truth. It boggles my mind! 

But thats what I said, that it does whatever it likes to - that it appears how it likes to... But I am not trying to put it in a box and say "this is how it is" , it is bigger than me, and it is not my place, as a function, to comment on the entire code and the force that moves us in a certain direction. It is obvious we are moving in some direction and there are some better than others, I would assume. And we have a limited view here, when there might be bigger functions that deal with that bigger stuff so we don't have to. I would hope that is the case! 

Much love to you 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Dodo

[Mason Riggle]

10 minutes ago, Dodo said:

But thats what I said, that it does whatever it likes to - that it appears how it likes to...

Well.. technically you said that it 'can' do whatever it likes to - that it 'can' appear how it likes to.  I think it's a more accurate map to say it 'does' do whatever it likes to.  It's a subtle difference, I agree.. but I think an important one, as long as we're peeling back the layers of truth here.. 

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Dodo]

4 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

Well.. technically you said that it 'can' do whatever it likes to - that it 'can' appear how it likes to.  I think it's a more accurate map to say it 'does' do whatever it likes to.  It's a subtle difference, I agree.. but I think an important one, as long as we're peeling back the layers of truth here.. 

 

it can appear how it likes to is an equivalent statement to it does whatever it likes to. Really you are way too pedantic about wording. Its your mistake to put too much emphasis on the "can" 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Dodo

[Dodo]

4 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

Well.. technically you said that it 'can' do whatever it likes to - that it 'can' appear how it likes to.  I think it's a more accurate map to say it 'does' do whatever it likes to.  It's a subtle difference, I agree.. but I think an important one, as long as we're peeling back the layers of truth here.. 

 

I think there are other relative truths which are more important... Like some beings stealing ideas from our infinite imagination and creating movies and making movies from our pain and sufferings which generate awesome ideas..  

I like to watch Loki now, it seems like my kind of story, I feel like they used my seeds in that one

[Mason Riggle]

 

2 minutes ago, Dodo said:

it can appear how it likes to is an equivalent statement to it does whatever it likes to. 

 I see subtle differences.. the word 'can' implies choice.. it implies that it has the option of appearing how it likes, or not.  This seems like an error of language to me, which causes illusions like 'free will'. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Dodo said:

 Really you are way too pedantic about wording. Its your mistake to put too much emphasis on the "can" 

Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion, man.