Why does the anti-vax perspective exist?

[7thLetter]

This is not an anti-vax thread, I simply just would like to know why people are against the COVID vaccine or all vaccines in general.

And I don't want to hear any toxic comments saying, "Well you might as well ask yourself why does ignorance exist?"

I personally haven't taken the COVID vaccine yet, because I would say that I'm just way too open-minded to not explore the anti-vaccine perspective so I'd like to fully understand it first before I decide to have my body injected with any sort of fluids. The pro-vaccine perspective is obvious, so then that leaves me questioning the anti-vax perspective.

Also, I see no urgency to take the vaccine other than the urgency from all the fearmongering on the news about the virus and health officials pushing us to get vaccinated.

Based on Wikipedia & Worldometers.info linked below, depending on the country, the mortality rate for COVID-19 is about 1-3%? So all this fear for.. what again sorry?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:COVID-19_pandemic_data

Plus not only do those reasons above have me delay getting the vaccine, I also consider myself quite a healthy young adult in my mid twenties. I gym 4 times a week, I my supplements daily, organic multivitamins, zinc, vitamin D. And my diet is quite good, I trust my own immune system.

But I get it, "take the vaccine to prevent getting the vulnerable sick and to prevent further mutation of the virus."

So if 80% of the population needs to be vaccinated for a successful elimination of the virus then my province should be fine right? 75% of my province in Canada is already vaccinated, so do I take it because of the social pressure of everyone else taking it or can I stay quiet and rely on my own ability to take care of my own health? 

I doubt we'll have 100% of the global population fully vaccinated so why is it okay for the remaining 10-25% of the population to remain non-vaccinated? Who would be these people and why would they choose not to take it?

Here are some further questions:

I've already asked why does the anti-vax perspective exist, but why, is it because they have some sort of unknown truth about the vaccine that we simply do not know of?

Is there potentially an unknown moderate-serious long-term side effect of the vaccine?

We've all heard the "it's rushed" objection and the answer of "oh its already been in development before COVID." But correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the COVID vaccine not fully approved yet? Is it a good idea for us to take a vaccine that isn't fully approved, just to "potentially" protect ourselves from a 1-3% mortality rate from a virus?

So why do these pharmaceutical companies have to have some sort of legal protection in place to prevent themselves from getting sued if the vaccines eventually does cause some long-term side effects/damage to these individuals?

And just a comment, I get that most if not all people in a semi-developed country has previously taken a vaccine in their lives but this one is different, these COVID vaccines haven't been fully approved yet, again correct me if I'm wrong.

I hold quite a bit of uncertainty here, it's difficult to believe that this virus exists since we can't physically see it ourselves. We only know that it collectively exists within' our own minds and that it exists within' all the media coverage. I don't doubt it exists though, it's just that no one that I personally know has gotten it, and I only a few celebrities that I know of have gotten it and/or have spoken publicly on it. Also, its just odd how most well-known celebrities or elites haven't announced that they've taken the vaccine, why is that so? I've only heard of some washed-up actors/celebrities who were relevant only in the early 2000s now in their 50's, taking the vaccine.

Again, I'm not anti-vax, I'm just here to potentially have some questions answered, these are legit questions & objections that I have.

Some final comments, I do believe the vaccine works and I believe its necessary to have the masses vaccinated ASAP, but I still think that a healthy lifestyle and daily supplementation beats vaccination, this might be an ignorant statement but prove me if I'm wrong. With that being said, maybe we can say at least 60% of the population live unhealthy lifestyles and that also includes the elderly so in that case that's why I would say a vaccine is necessary. We can't just get everyone on earth to start eating healthy and start exercising.

Lastly, although I do believe the vaccine works, I still have all these questions and objections above. I personally see the vax as more of a potential risk than the virus itself.

Thanks for reading.

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2021 by 7thLetter

[Opo]

Read the threads about this all the questions have been answered. 

[Carl-Richard]

It's privilege. People have become too complacent with their cushy lives.

[Nightwise]

It's interesting. I remember this topic having far more comments than it does now. I also remember having written something here which now appears to also have been removed, even though what I said I tried to be fairly nuanced and objective about it.

I don't care if you're for or against vaccinations. Personally I'm undecided but I'm leaning more towards the mainstream narrative and I will probably end up taking the vaccine. I am however as of now contemplating whether to take the vaccine now that it has become available to me by studying different sources, for and against, and I have seen actually very intelligent people being able to have a mature discussion about the risks and dangers of vaccinations and the current situation who, quite frankly, are stage Yellow thinkers or at the very least have quite a bit of Yellow in them (even if they are not centered there), even though society may coin them as indeed conspiracy thinkers.

I'm not saying they are correct, and I'm not saying they are wrong. I'm just saying that those who subscribe to conspiracy theories aren't automatically dumb or uneducated; Although many of them may be.

Leo, moderators, please read carefully what I'm about to say and I urge you to take some time to seriously consider and contemplate about what I'm about to write. I'm not saying you need to take everything I write here exactly as I say it, but use your own wisdom to discern for yourself what is valuable and not valuable about what I have written in this post.

I don't like what I see happening on this forum, because this looks like censorship. I'm not defending anti-vaxxers; I'm defending freedom of speech. I'm not even taking that notion of 'freedom of speech' as if it were some absolute Good that overrides all else, because I understand the need for the forum to have order and to be regulated.

I understand that there may be a consensus that risk of infecting people with conspiracy-alike narratives may be seen a greater cost than abolishing the freedom of speech in this particular area, but I beg to differ. 

I think that whatever we are in opposition towards to the extent that we judge, deny, ridicule, ignore or even censor something, there is a shadow that is going to be created. With the people in my community in my personal life that are against vaccinations or hesitant towards it, I want to have a mature, curious and inquisitive dialogue about why it is they think that way without needing to be against or for the perspective that they are sharing. Right now we have a situation where people are getting into fights, losing their career, breaking up their relationships, and losing long-standing cherished intimate friendships, and even getting publicly ridiculed and shamed because there is a basic disagreement with someone opposed to his/her environment about something like whether one should get a vaccination or not.

To silence, intimidate or shame someone is not going to do anyone any good. It will create more conflict and division for all parties involved. That is not going to be solution to resolve the sometimes intense conflict that we're dealing with in this day and age.

The only way we are going to resolve our conflict —Not appear to resolve our conflict by sweeping the voices of opposition under a rug— is by actually listening to each other perspectives, to have mature discussions about it, to bring the shadows into the light not by avoiding the conflict, but by bringing the conflict into the light and dealing with the conflict in a conscious and mature way. In other words: We are curious and genuinely open to what the other has to say, but we are not naïve as to take what they say on face value. We do ask critical questions, but we do so because we are curious and inquisitive, and we care more about the Truth than either to defend or to imbibe a certain narrative.

Only if we are willing to at least be open that there is the possibility that the opposing party of what we tend to believe in may have at least some Truth to it, and that we are open enough to explore what that Truth may be, then we are going to come to a true resolution, to a true comradery; even despite our tendencies to lean towards one particular narrative or the other.

And unfortunately, on this forum, a forum that has an image that it has the intentions to get each other to the highest Truth, this is currently not happening right now.

And that's why I ask you, Leo, the moderators, but also other readers of this post, to revise your position on how you handle certain alternative narratives such as vaccination criticism.

[Carl-Richard]

@Nightwise There was a data loss that occured almost a day ago that erased the last 2 days of posts. It's not just this topic that was affected

[7thLetter]

@Nightwise Yeah if you haven't seen Leo's recent thread, apparently there's been a loss of data that removed 2 days worth of activity on the forum. A little odd how it happened with this thread being started along with a couple other vaccine discussion threads, but I doubt it was intentional.

Also this thread was locked because it was "turning into anti-vax garbage." Wouldn't mind if the discussion kept going now that the thread is open and the "anti-vax" comments have been removed but I guess we'll see what happens.

Here's Leo's thread:

 

[TheAlchemist]

This might sound a bit whacky, but I have often wondered how much of the anti-vax movement stems simply from discomfort with sticking needles into the body, and that discomfort being attached to elaborate stories that are just coping mechanisms to avoid that uncomfortable feeling. That might be one of the original causes (usually unconscious) for the suspicion, then dozens of other ideas/memes get attached to the original one. 

I have a difficult time imagining the anti-vaxx movement being such a big thing if "vaccines" were deployed simply as a nasal spray or oral pill. Fortunately that seems to be the direction where vaccine technology is headed towards in the future. 

[Sucuk Ekmek]

I don't think that as an anti perspective. It seems more like a decline of a certain world view, narrative or culture or even ontology. I do think our knowledge and definition about "being healthy" will change. Newer datas are coming out but our current paradigm is not quite ready for that. 

 

 

[Trayambakam]

A distinction needs to be made between Anti-Vaxers and Anti-Covid Vaxers 

As to why someone would consider not getting the Covid Vaccine there does appear to be many doubts regarding it.

 

[Consept]

I honestly think it's an anti-government thing, I often wonder what would happen if the government from the start took the position that many covid conspiricists take, so imagine that the government said covid wasn't serious, the death rate is so low, we shouldn't lockdown or wear masks. I honestly believe the same conspiricists would be saying the government is hiding things, they're delaying a vaccine, they're minimising the disease etc, I can't imagine them agreeing with the government under any circumstances. 

Which then tells me that it's not about truth it's really a protest and resistance to the government, which is cool but I don't believe it to be an honest search for truth. 

[Peter-Andre]

On 6/12/2021 at 11:58 AM, 7thLetter said:

I personally haven't taken the COVID vaccine yet, because I would say that I'm just way too open-minded to not explore the anti-vaccine perspective so I'd like to fully understand it first before I decide to have my body injected with any sort of fluids. The pro-vaccine perspective is obvious, so then that leaves me questioning the anti-vax perspective.

Be careful with assuming that since there are two sides to an issue, that both sides are equally valid. Sure, there are a lot of people who don't believe in vaccines. But who are they? Are they biologists, virologists or similar? If not, why should we take their claims seriously. That's the problem with the anti-vaccination side; it's not really backed up by any substantial evidence, and yet, lots of people now don't know if they can trust vaccines or not because there are still lots of people saying they are bad for you, without any proper evidence on their side.

While it's great to explore different perspectives and opinions on controversial issues, there is only so much time to study different perspectives and a virtually unlimited supply of different perspectives to explore, so you have to pick your battles wisely. Instead of focusing too much on the anti-vaxxer perspective, how about spending that time learning about different perspectives on vaccine distribution. There are legitimate debates about which groups should be vaccinated before others for example.

There are also interesting discussions about how society should adjust back to normal after the pandemic goes over, as well as what we can learn from this pandemic and our response to it, and how we might deal with similar issues in the future.

But we can't really get to that point if we're still debating whether vaccines are effective or not.

[sholomar]

Throughout the history of the evolution of our species, humans were backstabbed by individuals they thought they could trust, so it's wired into our DNA to a degree to question authority. That's the simple answer, really.

Why are there people who feel the need to force their lifestyle preferences on the entire population and have some socialist collective? Those same biological drives.

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by sholomar

[Tanz]

It's completely understandable and normal for people to be suspicious of power and authority. Especially when there is a history of corruption with government. If we lived in a more conscious, selfless society there would be less or no anti vax people.
Greed powers a culture like America and the system incentives that behavior.

The financial system. Lobbyists in government makes people paranoid when they look at the unfair optics of life. A narrative and conspiracy spins from that.

The solution for antivax people would be to correct those incidous things and create universal healthcare and a society that can profit and benifit having healthy people. Cancer and heart disease makes a fuck load of money. And as long as people are profiting out of human suffering, there will be a spectrum of people that are conspiracy theorist 

[Rajneeshpuram]

Antivax movement is derived of critical thinking.

The more educated the people the more critical thinking. In the most "first world" cointriues of Europe, like Switzerland or Germany is where more people is manifesting against the official version. 

Then we got the other side of the spectrum. In south america there is no critical thnking, just mass thinking like sheeps. And they believe everything that Tv tells them.

[Consept]

12 hours ago, Rajneeshpuram said:

Antivax movement is derived of critical thinking.

The more educated the people the more critical thinking. In the most "first world" cointriues of Europe, like Switzerland or Germany is where more people is manifesting against the official version. 

Then we got the other side of the spectrum. In south america there is no critical thnking, just mass thinking like sheeps. And they believe everything that Tv tells them.

Anti vax was also quite popular in Nigeria for example until they kept getting polio outbreaks, do they also have the developed critical thinking skills you mentioned? 

[Tanz]

4 hours ago, Consept said:

Anti vax was also quite popular in Nigeria for example until they kept getting polio outbreaks, do they also have the developed critical thinking skills you mentioned? 

You gotta look at their history.  The continent of Africa has been done wrong by western countries for centuries so its easy for them to be paranoid.  Blood Diamonds, Slave trade, lithium mines, and other minerals, old white men hunting lions and rhino's for sport.   

[Eternity]

I don't know about the vax in Africa.  But I do know that there are so many conspiracy stories out in the conservative media here in the U.S. due to Trump giving  out false information from the start of the pandemic that the less than fully educated portion of our population doesn't know what to think.  Now, Trump was the one who spread rumors about his political opponent, Hillary Clinton, such as she was running a pedophile ring of vicious cannibals from a pizza a shop in the basement (there was in fact no basement in said pizza parlor and no pedophile ring).  Trump also claimed that the propellers of wind energy "farms" caused cancer (I don't know why) and proposed we drink bleach or Insert special lights into our bodies to cure Covid 19.  His fans were and still are willing to believe any thing he says and he said we didn't need any vax . Meanwhile this last January he and Melania quietly went and got their vaccines before many of the rest of us could get ours.   Trump's fans still insist they side with Trump against the vax even though he is in reality not against it.  He's just a pathological liar and lies for the  power trip he gets from influencing a large portion of gullible folk.

The fact is that there is a very tiny number of people who get side effects from the vax.  And it is keeping people out of hospitals at about 90-95% effectiveness rate. There is another surprising phenomena about Covid 19: younger, very fit individuals tend to get the worst cases.  It is not known why.  The experts  are very puzzled by this.  I would certainly rather deal with the possibility of maybe having some effect later on with the vax than having to be put in the hospital on a breathing tube, on my stomach in an induced coma for weeks only to die a tortuous death in the end.  Also it was the easiest shot I've ever had.  I literally felt nothing when the needle went in, as did my husband and everyone I know who had it.  I had a sore shoulder the next few days as is usual with other shots like flu shots and others and  felt nothing else.  It's a snap and judging by the success rate it's not a gov't conspiracy.  I trust our current president on this.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Eternity

[Consept]

7 hours ago, Tanz said:

You gotta look at their history.  The continent of Africa has been done wrong by western countries for centuries so its easy for them to be paranoid.  Blood Diamonds, Slave trade, lithium mines, and other minerals, old white men hunting lions and rhino's for sport.   

I know the history and reasons for it, my family is Nigerian which is why I used the example, I'm not really criticising them I'm just saying being anti vax is not necessarily a sign of higher development as was stated in the post I was replying to. 

[Ima Freeman]

@7thLetter @7thLetter

I highly recommend this book to understand why there is such a big anti-vaccination movement in the USA:





Ethyl-mercury was used in childhood-vaccines as a presevative till the early 2000s. In the 90s more vaccines were added to the schedule increasing the level of mercury infants were exposed to. Sometimes as much as 62,5mcg a day.

Btw, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) recommends consuming a daily maximum of 0.1 mcg of mercury per kilogram body weight. 
And this figure is for oral consumption, not for injection into the body.

Today there are still very controversial ingridients in vaccines like aluminium-hydroxide and aluminium-phosphate.

There are no metal compounds in the COVID vaccines as far as I know.

But investigating past controversis is crucial for understanding why people are against vaccination.

[Consept]

1 hour ago, Ima Freeman said:

@7thLetter @7thLetter

I highly recommend this book to understand why there is such a big anti-vaccination movement in the USA:





Ethyl-mercury was used in childhood-vaccines as a presevative till the early 2000s. In the 90s more vaccines were added to the schedule increasing the level of mercury infants were exposed to. Sometimes as much as 62,5mcg a day.

Btw, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) recommends consuming a daily maximum of 0.1 mcg of mercury per kilogram body weight. 
And this figure is for oral consumption, not for injection into the body.

Today there are still very controversial ingridients in vaccines like aluminium-hydroxide and aluminium-phosphate.

There are no metal compounds in the COVID vaccines as far as I know.

But investigating past controversis is crucial for understanding why people are against vaccination.

What would you say about the fact that theres a lot more mercury and aluminium in breast milk than there is in any vaccines?