Critique of The Rational Male and Red Pill Ideology

[aurum]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Also, the notion that a high consciousness woman would not be attracted to status and leadership is like the notion of a high consciousness guy not being attracted to nice tits.

You can bullshit yourself all you want but you're not above such things. And also don't confuse your inability to get such things as you not wanting them if they were readily available to you.

But we also need to acknowledge that there are likely degrees to which this is true. For some women, status is way more important than others. Likewise with men and "nice tits", which is already a subjective notion. And that as people raise in consciousness, it's accurate to say these things become less important.

[Flowerfaeiry]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

What's sad is a hot woman getting fucked by a weak man.

Fucking yes.

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

a girl suffers more if she gets attached to a piece of shit guy than if she gets to a weak guy.

Strength doesn't mean he's a piece of shit. And yea, a woman needs to be aware and not fall in love with a straight up asshole.

[Nos7algiK]

4 hours ago, aurum said:

But we also need to acknowledge that there are likely degrees to which this is true. For some women, status is way more important than others. Likewise with men and "nice tits", which is already a subjective notion. And that as people raise in consciousness, it's accurate to say these things become less important.

Exactly, I'm not going to say it's a universal rule the higher your consciousness is the less you want these things. But, there is a good chance that these aspects of life aren't seen as attractive in one's eyes but rather mundane and mean very little to the very essence of an inter-personal connection between yourself and a potential lover. The more one becomes higher consciousness, the more one knows themself, and the more authenticity becomes the object of attraction.

It has nothing to do with being "above it" and that is silly to say. No one's going to say "Ah, but you see you have nice tits. Sorry you just aren't good enough for me". But, rather the tits themselves mean almost nothing to the factors in why you would be attracted to her and if she does have nice tits it's not even a bonus, it's just how it is.

Implying that someone only feels this way because they can't get a woman with large breasts is silly and a very low tier deduction of what is actually happening. An argument you would hear on Reddit or something where they person really thinks they got ya there. Instead of having faith in the words of the other person considering they are stating their own personal preferences as a person.

Though it's entirely possible someone could literally be the reincarnation of Jesus and be all about them tits and that status.

[Karmadhi]

@Knowledge Hoarder @Flowerfaeiry Yes ofc a weak guy can be an asshole too but strenght should not be an indicator whether a girl should sleep with a guy or not for her sake, KINDNESS is.

You can be strong and kind or weak and scumbag, of course you can. I just said that if you use strenght as an indicator of a good mate partner in 2021 then you might deal with a scumbag, if you use kindness then you will not deal with a scumbag. A scumbag is worse than a weak guy in 2021, i mean we do not live in tribal days anymore you will not die because the guy is weak. 

Basically i said prioritizing strenght over kindness will create bad results FOR THE GIRL. We are talking about the female agenda here. A guy should try to become strong too, i agree with that while remaining a decent person. But if you guys had a sister would you rather her date based on how strong the guy's personality is or based on how he treats her. 

And please do not confuse kindness with niceness those are totally different things. You can be nice with a girl and still be a piece of shit person, niceness with an agenda is not real niceness it is fake shit. Paying for someone's shit 24/7, kissing their ass and allowing them to treat you badly doesnt make you a kind person, it makes you a nice idiot.

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Karmadhi

[Hulia]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Also, the notion that a high consciousness woman would not be attracted to status and leadership is like the notion of a high consciousness guy not being attracted to nice tits.

You can bullshit yourself all you want but you're not above such things. And also don't confuse your inability to get such things as you not wanting them if they were readily available to you.

I am a living example. I am not attracted to status and leadership. Absolutely. 

I find status-guys even annoying, a tie - absurd, suite - ugly, expensive car - ridiculous.

I absolutely don´t understand, how somebody can be attracted to these guys. Maybe if you are a student or a housewife, who has "0" experience in dealing with these pricks. 

But nice tits are ok with me  

[Emerald]

21 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course they will.

Open a fake dating profile, post that in the profile, and you will have chicks begging for dates. I've actually done it.

A dude can get laid from status alone in the same way that a chick can get laid from "symmetrical features, oval face shape, large eyes, full lips, and a .6 waist to hip ratio".

You're being like one of those incel guys who quote dating profile statistics to say why only Chads get girls.

If you look at dating profile statistics as gospel, you'd think that women are mostly or only attuned to looks. And that's because surface level stuff is all there is in a dating profile sense. 

And so, when Incel guys are like "ONLY the top 20% of guys looks-wise get all the girls", it's because they're looking at dating profile statistics and seeing that as an absolute truth about female sexuality.

But I know you're smarter than that Leo. I know you'd just as much call them on their bs as I would.

But when it comes to status, you look at dating profile statistics as proof of your theories around the ultimate objectivity of female sexuality. You're trying so hard to prove that female sexuality works the same way as male sexuality, when it does not. 

And I mean that in its content as well as its overall patterning. We aren't just men who happen to be attuned to different qualities. It's a different mode of relating and attraction altogether.

So, where's the consistency here?

It's a bunch of malarky when Incels use dating website stats to support their distorted coping mechanism ideas about female sexuality, but it's absolute truth when you use it to support your distorted coping mechanism ideas about female sexuality?

The fact of the matter is that, if you're trying to build status to meet women, you will meet women who are seeking status. You will also gain more mass appeal and you'll be less likely to hit a woman's dealbreakers, so it's useful. But status (though attractive to me in an objective sense) is never what ends up snaring me. 

Now, some women are really attuned to that. But other women aren't as much. 

I can certainly recognize that status is attractive. But am I attracted to ALL high status men? Absolutely not. And that's because the subjective factors of my sexuality outweigh the objective factors.

Now, I understand that it may be comforting for you to believe that female sexuality is a predictable machine. That's a big security blanket that would be very difficult to let go of. 

But overall, it's a lot less straightforward than male sexuality. And that's something that you will never fully solve or hack your way out of. It doesn't matter how many books you read on the topic. It doesn't matter how much personal development you do. And it doesn't matter how good you get at approaching. It will never act as a consistent machine in the way you like to think it does. 

[Ghost]

11 hours ago, gettoefl said:

beware there are two survivals

survival of ego and survival of dream

kill the ego, enjoy the dream

you need dollars as well as sense to enjoy the dream and all the beautiful souls in it

so do your work, on both fronts, for maximizing your few breaths here

 

 

Beautiful, thank you.

[TK2021]

50 minutes ago, Emerald said:

 

These objective qualities(status, looks, money, charm etc.) act as a barrier for women before they even CONSIDER the subjective(deeper personality). And as you said, the subjective qualities can't even be changed. Tho I don't really agree with that.

 

In simpler terms: you gotta fix the outside, before people care about the inside.

 

Now there's some truth to what you write, but I honestly get the vibe from your posts that you are kind of ashamed of your sexuality deep down. I feel like you're still unconsciously slut shaming yourself. Otherwise there wouldn't be such motivation for these texts of proving how your sexuality is somehow so evolved and less primitive. I mean what motivates you truly to write all these posts? I can't believe that it is just innocently and unconditionally motivated by trying to educate. You are deeply invested in particularly this - and I wonder why such investment? What do you gain from it?

[Gesundheit2]

@TK2021 We're all a work-in-progress.

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, TK2021 said:

These objective qualities(status, looks, money, charm etc.) act as a barrier for women before they even CONSIDER the subjective(deeper personality). And as you said, the subjective qualities can't even be changed. Tho I don't really agree with that.

 

In simpler terms: you gotta fix the outside, before people care about the inside.

 

Now there's some truth to what you write, but I honestly get the vibe from your posts that you are kind of ashamed of your sexuality deep down. I feel like you're still unconsciously slut shaming yourself. Otherwise there wouldn't be such motivation for these texts of proving how your sexuality is somehow so evolved and less primitive. I mean what motivates you truly to write all these posts? I can't believe that it is just innocently and unconditionally motivated by trying to educate. You are deeply invested in particularly this - and I wonder why such investment? What do you gain from it?

I suppose there's always a chance I could be unconsciously holding onto slut shamy view. When I was a teenager I was really judgmental about that kind of thing because I lived in a very conservative redneck town. And you'd get ripped to shreds as a woman by other women and some men if you were seen as slutty. And I also had a fair amount of sexual traumas. So, I totally could have some holdovers from that time period.

But I don't have any conscious shame about my sexual past. I've had relationships, flings, one-night stands. And I very much enjoy sex. And there's not too much that I won't try. And I was always very precocious when it came to all things sex and romance. I'm pretty well an open book about the topic.

And I don't see "primitive" sexuality as negative or less evolved. I quite like the more primal elements of sexuality because it is untouched by civilization. That's the core of the deep sexual urge. And this is a very important component. And when you're in the loving embrace with your partner, you can tear the civilized humanity off of yourself and just let go. It's very cathartic.

So, I don't see my posts as being reflective of slut shaming myself. It's more of a desire to be seen accurately and without distortion. There's a lot of over-emphasis of certain aspects of female sexuality and a lot of under-emphasis or omission of other aspects of female sexuality.

It just irks me a lot when I see men totally misunderstanding female sexuality and then falsely believing that they're right about it... and be stubborn to hear anything different. 

[Gesundheit2]

3 minutes ago, Emerald said:

There's a lot of over-emphasis of certain aspects of female sexuality and a lot of under-emphasis or omission of other aspects of female sexuality.

It just irks me a lot when I see men totally misunderstanding female sexuality and then falsely believing that they're right about it... and be stubborn to hear anything different. 

Maybe consider using the term "my sexuality" more often instead of "female sexuality".

[Javfly33]

10 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

@Leo Gura

I love how you tend to favour strenght over kindness. Like a girl is being dumb for fucking a weak guy rather than fucking a piece of shit guy. A girl suffers more if she gets attached to a piece of shit guy than if she gets to a weak guy. Of course aim to be strong and kind but if i had a sister i would rather have her date a weak kind guy than a strong asshole, for her sake. I have seen more girls suffer from dating scumbags than i have seen them suffering from dating weak guys. I doubt that is just me.  You do not seem to be very critical of scumbags in the dating scene  when actually they create more issues than "weak" guys do. 

Being weak is an issue for a guy, he will suffer because of that. A girl will not suffer.

"What is said is a hot women getting fucked by a scumbag that gives 0 shits about her" would be a better response i think.

 

 

Have you seen "Nocturnal Animals"?

It talks in a brilliant way about why women do not choose weak men. Its a fucking brilliant movie.

[universe]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

The fact of the matter is that, if you're trying to build status to meet women, you will meet women who are seeking status. You will also gain more mass appeal and you'll be less likely to hit a woman's dealbreakers, so it's useful. But status (though attractive to me in an objective sense) is never what ends up snaring me.

Isn't that exactly what Leo wrote like status is the hook and the rest is personality?

Like in this video he also says that status & looks are not as important (17:30)

 

[TK2021]

54 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I suppose there's always a chance I could be unconsciously holding onto slut shamy view. When I was a teenager I was really judgmental about that kind of thing because I lived in a very conservative redneck town. And you'd get ripped to shreds as a woman by other women and some men if you were seen as slutty. And I also had a fair amount of sexual traumas. So, I totally could have some holdovers from that time period.

But I don't have any conscious shame about my sexual past. I've had relationships, flings, one-night stands. And I very much enjoy sex. And there's not too much that I won't try. And I was always very precocious when it came to all things sex and romance. I'm pretty well an open book about the topic.

And I don't see "primitive" sexuality as negative or less evolved. I quite like the more primal elements of sexuality because it is untouched by civilization. That's the core of the deep sexual urge. And this is a very important component. And when you're in the loving embrace with your partner, you can tear the civilized humanity off of yourself and just let go. It's very cathartic.

So, I don't see my posts as being reflective of slut shaming myself. It's more of a desire to be seen accurately and without distortion. There's a lot of over-emphasis of certain aspects of female sexuality and a lot of under-emphasis or omission of other aspects of female sexuality.

It just irks me a lot when I see men totally misunderstanding female sexuality and then falsely believing that they're right about it... and be stubborn to hear anything different. 

I see. I think that primitive sexuality is quite negative for evolution. It's quite objectively less evolved to be sexually attracted(read: to have a biological reaction to procreate)to a person with great tits than intelligence. It's also quite negative for our species that most women are attracted to barbaric displays of power. I think most conflicts would end if our sexualities were actually more evolved. I think deep down we know this and are ashamed of it.

Even as a man I have a hard time accepting the fact that the people who are further developed mentally, spiritually etc. really don't have much correlation with my sexual urges towards them. My dick will get harder for a stage beige girl than a stage turquoise girl just if she has a better body, or deepthroats better. I think this is a massive flaw and my relationships and motivations have truly suffered from it. Now I can't even imagine what it would be like as a girl to have to admit these things with all the cultural conditionings etc. shaming and the need to be more integrated to the herd due to survival threats. I'm sure personality matters more for girls, but the to the extent you are trying to paint a picture of - I just don't buy it. Even the personality stuff is iffy. One could be attracted to a very harmful personality because of traumas and conditionings. And it certainly is more the case of being attracted to the wrong personality than the right personality for most people.

I take it that you are a single mother? Now I am not saying that this directly causes bitterness towards men - but I certainly would be extremely surprised if there wasn't ANY bitterness from that. The need to see yourself only sexually turned on by some guy with specific values etc. personality, could actually be an unconscious way of pedestalizing yourself above men, who hurt you by not being attracted enough to you for objective/primitive reasons. This way at least you are higher and holier than these guys sexually. And they are also not worthy of your true attraction. Now I'm not saying this is exactly what is happening. It is just one example out of hundreds how your mind could be playing games regarding this.

[Karmadhi]

@Javfly33

24 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Have you seen "Nocturnal Animals"?

It talks in a brilliant way about why women do not choose weak men. Its a fucking brilliant movie.

Yes i have, it is a good movie but not applicable to real life. Please do not use such extreme examples. I can also mention A LOT of PUAs that kill it with girls and have legit rape charges and cheat 24/7 and use it as an example of what a strong guy gets you. Please.

@Emerald Leo is saying that some specific things are more attractive for girls than others. He is not saying that ALL girls are attracted to such things but most are. There are guys that have much better results with girls than others. Why so? Because of specific factors. Now these factors come in different flavors. However you cannot say things like confidence, non-neediness, humour, good looks, status, competence etc are not attractive in general. Maybe not every single girl will like a guy for X thing but it is just general trends. Leo has said many times that filling X factor will not guarantee anything but it will increase your chances.

[coca]

4 minutes ago, TK2021 said:

  It's also quite negative for our species that most women are attracted to barbaric displays of power.  

Can u provide a few examples ?

4 minutes ago, TK2021 said:

I take it that you are a single mother? Now I am not saying that this directly causes bitterness towards men - but I certainly would be extremely surprised if there wasn't ANY bitterness from that. The need to see yourself only sexually turned on by some guy with specific values etc. personality, could actually be an unconscious way of pedestalizing yourself above men, who hurt you by not being attracted enough to you for objective/primitive reasons. This way at least you are higher and holier than these guys sexually. And they are also not worthy of your true attraction. Now I'm not saying this is exactly what is happening. It is just one example out of hundreds how your mind could be playing games regarding this.

This.

[TK2021]

24 minutes ago, coca said:

31 minutes ago, TK2021 said:

  It's also quite negative for our species that most women are attracted to barbaric displays of power.  

Can u provide a few examples ?

I mean just look at history. Just look around. It is absolutely horrifying.

If you want some autistic scientific proof, here is some:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/147470491301100122
TL;DR:
In a study of 1212 women, it was concluded that women in their peak fertility prefer needlessly violent men. 

I have some great anecdotes of this too, but I think this is enough for now.

It's almost as if being nice or kind isn't worth anything in regards to a woman's sexual attraction - it is actually a NEGATIVE. You are punished for being nice even if you are strong. Say for example you are threatened violently and you de-escalate the situation peacefully. She will not respect and be as attracted to you on a sexual level as much as if you had violently destroyed this other person. And not just that. According to this study if you just needlessly make others suffer, you are sexier.

Edited August 31, 2021 by TK2021

[coca]

@TK2021 I find this to be the case with young ladies, 30 and under.
Things start to change once their body count increases and looks start to decline, and they realize that they need to start taking someone seriously if they don’t wanna be left alone on the streets with plummeting desirability.
This is where lower value males swoop in and make long term commitments, while men with options and self respect continue to run through 18-30yos.

Leo once said that if women were sexually attracted to kindness, all war would immediately end and we would have peace ☮️ on earth ?, but alas, endless war .

Edited August 31, 2021 by coca

[TK2021]

15 minutes ago, coca said:

@TK2021 I find this to be the case with young ladies, 30 and under. 
Leo once said that if women were sexually attracted to kindness, all war would immediately end and we would have peace ☮️ on earth ?, but alas, endless war .

I find this to be the case with all ladies. Even the old ones. But I don't know all ladies, so I won't generalize that far.

A funny anecdote: I was hanging out with my Granpa's sister in a coffee shop last winter. A man started bugging us that we are sitting too close together regards to quarantine rules etc. whining to the waiters to move us, just being a piss-ant in general. So when this man left, I followed him outside and slapped him around hard, yelling at him and losing my temper. This behavior was unnecessary and probably counterproductive. It could've been solved much better. But my Granpa's sister caught a glimpse of this, and when I returned - the glimmer in the eyes of this old lady and the underlying respect she gained for me (even though she didn't approve of it verbally) was just really sad. 

Now I'm not telling this to prove any wide-arching point. I'm just saying that even nice old ladies love some unnecessary violence. In this case my Granpa's sister could've as well have been a male. I'm just telling that I have been turned into a less sensitive, less empathetic and more violent person, thanks to what women reward. It is because I am weak and need their rewards. Sex and procreation for man is a great reward. Many sociopathic behaviors have been INGRAINED in me because it has been so well rewarded and conditioned into me by women (and also men; but that's another can of worms we don't wanna open here and get sidetracked).

[Etherial Cat]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Also, the notion that a high consciousness woman would not be attracted to status and leadership is like the notion of a high consciousness guy not being attracted to nice tits.

You can bullshit yourself all you want but you're not above such things. And also don't confuse your inability to get such things as you not wanting them if they were readily available to you.

Status and leadership are of course attractive. Who isn't attracted to ressource and value? The ego is designed for accumulating survival goods to fulfill its agenda.

I'm not above such things. But I can tell you that status comes behind high consciousness in my priority list. Those who "made it" like you through a conscious business and are sustaining a conscious lifestyle are a marginal 0.1%. High consciousness guys were I come from are a rare good already, so imagine how rare are conscious guys with high status!

You know well that that a lot of people who've got status and leadership are devilish or born into it, if not the two. In fact, that's the huge majority of it. And am I attracted to this, especially? Hell no!! The first case is repulsive, and the second is nothing intrinsic to someone's worth on the survival market.

This is why I get annoyed when I'm told that status is so important. Yes, status as a derivative for success is attractive as hell, but not all type of status and wealth are sign of having found a good man! Plenty of high status men are trash!

I was born and raised in a city where there are plenty of millionaires and billionaires around. Me and my girlfriends dated guys whose family owned private jets. Heirs to fortune and even celebrities, or even elite sport players. And I've met a lot of men with comfortable status earned through being successful in their careers.

But among those, some are psychos. Some are having huge family complex ruining their relationship with life. Some are just not that interesting. Some are work alcoholics. Some are totally emotionally unavailable. Some are just not compatible, etc ... 

And my experience with it is that a lot of the regular high status men are fucked up and extremely difficult to be in a relationship with. To put up with it, you need to really love status and money and be rather low consciousness yourself.  And not minding selling your integrity for that "compensation".

So far, retrospectively, none of those high status guys I've met were a good match for me. I would have been miserable with them and the only reason why I'd have picked them instead of others is for the cash. Which would be a way to fully commodify my life.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Etherial Cat