You can't actually ever experience nonduality

[RMQualtrough]

@Endangered-EGO Both, I've had a total dissolution of self when I smoked a breakthrough dose of DMT while tripping on 500ug of LSD. I recall afterwards, it occurred to me that no matter who gets there it won't matter anymore, because NO part of them is there. What is a lifelong Buddhist monk when everything Buddhist monk is gone? What is a junkie rapist when everything junkie rapist is gone? They are the same. Identical. Once "there" which ALL people will inevitably go to, everything and everyone is identical.

I've had "cessation" I THINK (at least as far as we can tell, like general anaesthetic it's impossible to say if we just lost memory) from DMT also. On that occasion on the second pull doing the one hitter type method with the Glass Vaporgenie, the world exploded black, neon squiggles flew off into the black, then next thing I knew I was "coming to" some time after with no sense of anything between. Very odd.

I have also been under general anaesthetic twice...

It is possible the cessation is a loss of memory. That would be unproveable. But logically I think that is what nonduality really is.

When I had dissolution experiences, it bothered me that there were visuals at all, because the fact there was a vision meant there was still observer and observed. Even if the subjective sense of separation vanished.

[Endangered-EGO]

@RMQualtrough YES, cessation and dissolution comes with a partial or total loss of memory, but nothingness doesn't, you're literally awake in the dream. Its not like being asleep or under anesthesia, you're fully there in eternity.

 

That's the peace you're missing. You remember it also, there's no loss in memory. The key thing is you can't differentiate the waking stste from the dream state. That's the experience needed to realise that reality is not distinguishable from a dream. Which is 100% nonduality. No edging.

 

I have no experience with psychedelics, so I couldn't tell you, I also don't advise taking psychedelics. Just know that cessation and dissolution is TOTALLY different from nothingness. There's more to "IT"

[Mason Riggle]

3 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

We are the one thing there is, there's no way we couldn't be. We always are. Everything is in fact... 

^this part of what you said is True. 

We (plurality) are then one thing (singular) there is. 

Even imagined duality is the one thing there is when it's imagined, and that's what you (Everything there is) are. Always. 

It (Everything) is Always (eternally) Now. 

[4201]

You can't have both nonduality and create a duality of you separate from an experience. But experience is not the duality you create about it. That duality exists purely for communication (I experienced this flower yesterday!), the experience itself is nondual and not separate from you.

Edited June 11, 2021 by 4201

[Adamq8]

I have a question for you

If the ground is nothingness aka no experience whatsoever, no observer, no conciousness, then what makes the nothingness become somethingness.

How does it become experience?

Try to imagine non existence, if its the ground, how can anything be?

Then somehow something makes "non duality" become "duality"

I dont think that this pure cessation has anything to do with any ground of existence at all, it is just another experience in a form of a "non experience"

Like Leo says, there is also infinite conciousness which is very different from the nothingness of cessation. 

Which is the one that tells you more about the nature of reality?

Perhaps neither, only that conciousness has an infinite range of knowing itself.

Here is where buddhism and hinduism often clash, new age buddhism is making a biased claim in that cessation is the most important. 

To me it feels like a spiritual suicide since sone buddhists just say that the psycho-physical is all that there is, Aka atomists/materialists.

If GOD is nothingness etc, why does it become this? Why does it seemingly produce an infinite variety of experiences objects subjects etc.

Maybe our ordinarie waking conciousness is the ground of existence? Just a contemplation exercise. 

Either we are GOD which is eternal/immortal/infinite. 

But it does feel off that GOD could kill itself with a cessation "forever" it is obviously not the case, I think cessation is a good night sleep sorta thing.

 

[RMQualtrough]

56 minutes ago, Adamq8 said:

I have a question for you

If the ground is nothingness aka no experience whatsoever, no observer, no conciousness, then what makes the nothingness become somethingness.

How does it become experience?

Try to imagine non existence, if its the ground, how can anything be?

Then somehow something makes "non duality" become "duality"

I dont think that this pure cessation has anything to do with any ground of existence at all, it is just another experience in a form of a "non experience"

Like Leo says, there is also infinite conciousness which is very different from the nothingness of cessation. 

Which is the one that tells you more about the nature of reality?

Perhaps neither, only that conciousness has an infinite range of knowing itself.

Here is where buddhism and hinduism often clash, new age buddhism is making a biased claim in that cessation is the most important. 

To me it feels like a spiritual suicide since sone buddhists just say that the psycho-physical is all that there is, Aka atomists/materialists.

If GOD is nothingness etc, why does it become this? Why does it seemingly produce an infinite variety of experiences objects subjects etc.

Maybe our ordinarie waking conciousness is the ground of existence? Just a contemplation exercise. 

Either we are GOD which is eternal/immortal/infinite. 

But it does feel off that GOD could kill itself with a cessation "forever" it is obviously not the case, I think cessation is a good night sleep sorta thing.

Total cessation of God with zero experience ever could not be possible, because of the nature of infinity. If something can exist it will and evidently experience can exist. Because of the nature of time, that also means that experience is always happening now because the passage of time is an illusion.

So although inside spacetime we could cease to be localized beings, that cessation is reliant upon time. From outside time, eternity is a block (or point). So the experience you are having right now is permanent, eternal, and imprinted into that block of infinite time. It is always being experienced... The book is already written you are just flicking through the pages...

The big bang happend and at that moment where was the observer? Are atoms able to observe anything? Perhaps consciousness is more useful as a moniker because it can lie dormant.

I read before Sir Roger Penrose say that for a photon of light in a vacuum, it would subjectively experience infinite time immediately. Which sounds a lot like cessation (there is no experience of passed time just like two parts of a movie reel pasted together). They are made of what we are calling consciousness but experientially they are dormant in "cessation".

That might be of some importance.

Perhaps it is not so much that the thing can be dormant or cease to be, but it can be set up in such a way that experience cannot happen because there is no appearance of duality. There is no experience of no-experience just a time gap. In that time gap, the substance itself, perhaps that has gone nowhere. There is just a gap because there is nothing to experience.

Perhaps to contradict millenia of spiritual teachings, the fundamental nature of reality isn't consciousness it is GOD. And consciousness is simply the property OF God. That God nothingness can exist when experience ceases, because it is the ground below consciousness. God being simply the most apt term, lest I call it literally "__".

The question of "why is there something rather than nothing" is very enduring. Perhaps everything IS nothing. Maybe there ISN'T a something outside of nothing. Maybe nothing IS everythingness. Maybe that's what nothingness literally is, infinity. Not even infinite consciousness (although that would be part of it), just infinite potentiality or something. Though I fear infinite potentiality might be wrong too, maybe that too is just part of it. Perhaps it is LITERALLY nothing and this is some utterly insane paradoxical thing... The paradox being that Nothingness IS Somethingness. Such insane paradoxical answers satisfy me the most because of the oddity of the fact of existence itself even being a thing to begin with. I don't think it could exist via normal logic.

Edited June 11, 2021 by RMQualtrough

[Mason Riggle]

3 hours ago, Adamq8 said:

How does it become experience?

 

Infinity (nothingness) is limitless.. it's without limits.  'Experience' is one of the things infinity can be, because it can be literally anything. 

Consider: if you had a bag, that contained infinite different objects... if you began pulling objects out of this bag, and you did it for an infinite amount of time, eventually, one of the objects you would pull out would be the reality being experienced now. 

[Adamq8]

4 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

Infinity (nothingness) is limitless.. it's without limits.  'Experience' is one of the things infinity can be, because it can be literally anything. 

Consider: if you had a bag, that contained infinite different objects... if you began pulling objects out of this bag, and you did it for an infinite amount of time, eventually, one of the objects you would pull out would be the reality being experienced now. 

Yeah I agree that it is limitless, limitless in what it can experience.

What I dont really "agree" upon is that this nothingness can do stuff that is not an experience if you get me?

For it to be it has to be an experience, now I mean existence,even if it just a void with no content etc.

If you mean otherwise you postulate a nothingness (non existence) we are trying to get behind conciousness and then report back about it.

Like materialism claiming there is objects outside of our experience that produces our experience but there is no way to proof it or to experience it.

Experience is here and now always.

It is a thing tk become concious of infinity, sure some say it is even not conciousness it is being, but I use the word interchangebly. 

Non being/being/nothing/everything/conciousness/awareness etc. 

Infinity is the best explanation but how is it possible to be anything without awareness?

[RMQualtrough]

12 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

Infinity (nothingness) is limitless.. it's without limits.  'Experience' is one of the things infinity can be, because it can be literally anything. 

Consider: if you had a bag, that contained infinite different objects... if you began pulling objects out of this bag, and you did it for an infinite amount of time, eventually, one of the objects you would pull out would be the reality being experienced now. 

Nice one.

[RMQualtrough]

@Adamq8 Can't consciousness exist without being conscious of anything (and hence sort of be dormant as "nothing")?

When the big bang happened what was the awareness of an atom like? An atom is fundamentally made of it, so it IS it. But it isn't displaying that property of being aware of anything. So it's dormant?

I see the issue though.

At that beginning I only assume nothing in the entire universe was conscious of anything else and yet here it is.

I suppose matter is one of the unlimited things nothing can be too... Why can't everything just be nothing and not even consciousness. Literally everything out of that magical bag of unlimited things...

Edited June 11, 2021 by RMQualtrough

[Mason Riggle]

24 minutes ago, Adamq8 said:

What I dont really "agree" upon is that this nothingness can do stuff that is not an experience if you get me?

Nothingness is limitless... there are no limits to what it can do (be).  Infinite possibilities. 

[RMQualtrough]

@Mason Riggle I think the word possibilities kills the theory. It is better as just infinity, for the sole reason that something being possible doesn't mean it will happen. But if something is infinite it MUST be all those things or it wouldn't be infinite.

Stick on nothingness is infinite IMO.

I also like the term limitless and unlimited as used by you.

Edited June 11, 2021 by RMQualtrough

[Mason Riggle]

@RMQualtrough yeah for sure.. I was hesitant to write the word 'possibilities'.  It's not quite right to say 'nothing has the potential to be everything', because 'nothing' already is 'everything'. 

[The0Self]

When you stop imagining x to be real, it is what it is, unknowable.

[Dodo]

16 hours ago, Tim R said:

You never left nonduality. "Experience" only appears as duality so long as you insist on there being "experience". You don't need to enter general anesthetic or deep sleep or whatever.

Here it is.

yea but when you stub your toe, where does nonduality go. Is there really no one who stubbed their toe?

Who goes to the toilet? Awareness does not go !

Edited June 11, 2021 by Dodo

[Mason Riggle]

@Dodo even when there seems to be duality or multiplicity, that seeming is the 1 thing there is. 

[Dodo]

9 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Dodo even when there seems to be duality or multiplicity, that seeming is the 1 thing there is. 

Ok I mean I can entertain this as a mental exercise, but its really not experiential? Or is it? To me it seems like the king is naked and we are just scared to call it how it is... I stubbed my toe. What's the problem with duality? Its the ultimate nondual thing to accept duality and play ▶ 

[Mason Riggle]

@Dodo there's nothing wrong with duality.  It's the only way 'nothing/everything' (the one thing there is) seems like 'something' (many things) at all.   Just recognize that there's not difference between the two.  'Seeming like many things' IS 'the one thing there is'.  Existence (seeming like somethingness, rather than nothingness/everything) depends on it. 

Edited June 11, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[gettoefl]

realize that duality is another word for separation

non duality is all is one

you don't experience it you are it

do you experience your arm?

[Mason Riggle]

@gettoefl exactly.  This is a bit confusing linguistically, however.. 

When it's boiled down, it ends up being 'experience experiencing itself'.. or 'the dream dreaming itself'.. or 'creation creating itself'.. it's a strange loop. 

1 pretending to be 2. 

Everything/Nothing seeming like Something.

God imagining he is separate from himself to know himself.. 

etc.. 

Edited June 11, 2021 by Mason Riggle