Why we still keep Acting like we have Free Will?

[Mason Riggle]

@Dodo There is no separation between 'you' and the 'environment'.. You are part of my environment, and I am part of yours.. but it's all the same environment... There is just 'the environment' of which you are a part, behaving how it will. 

[Dodo]

6 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Dodo there are a whole set of conditions that have to occur for you to imagine 'adding 1' that you have nothing to do with.. could you do it IF you were a fish? Could you do it IF you had no concept of '1' or 'adding'?  

No and thats another big question : Why am I a human and not a fish? Is it my imagination is primary to my body expression? If I had the imagination of a fish, maybe I would be a fish. 

It could be that from your worldview that what I am is the body, and from that body is risen a mind, from that mind - consciousness - then yeah, body is primary and we are all robots...

But maybe it is flipped the other way around and it is exactly due to our freedom of will in consciousness that all of this even exist as this complex human form that feels so free ... 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Dodo

[Mason Riggle]

1 minute ago, Dodo said:

No and thats another big question : Why am I a human and not a fish?

You are how you are because conditions of reality dictate as such.. Reality can never be 'other than how it is'. 

Consider, if you were me, you would doing exactly what I am doing right now, because you would be me. 

[Dodo]

3 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

You are how you are because conditions of reality dictate as such.. Reality can never be 'other than how it is'. 

Consider, if you were me, you would doing exactly what I am doing right now, because you would be me. 

The problem here is not that I disagree with you. You are using exactly the same stuff that I have used in the past. So really you are me, but some years in the past. YOu've listened to the same influencers and these things have become like truths to you. But they are not. There is no way of checking other than to say that we already are the same being expressed in different form. But that is nonsensical to say as well, because that would mean the spider that bites you is also you and it really means nothing to say You then. There is no thing that is the same in me, in you and in every insect on Earth (except emptiness itself) . 

Right now you have an egoic identity which is You. I have another egoic identity which is Me. The emptiness that connects us, is not really us. It is the space in which both of us exist. Saying that my egoic identity in your body would do the same things is an error. I do not agree with it. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Dodo

[Mason Riggle]

@Dodo I think you perhaps missed something along the way. 

Even if you were 'God' with total freedom to do anything you want.. if you are not free to want 'other than what you do want'.. where is the freedom? 

This is why God = Love = Truth.

Reality is how it is because that's how it Loves to be... if it loved being some other way, it would be that way. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Dodo]

Just now, Mason Riggle said:

@Dodo I think you perhaps missed something along the way. 

Even if you were 'God' with total freedom to do anything you want.. if you are not free to want 'other than what you do want'.. where is the freedom? 

I think you miss a point too! You are talking about being free to choose what you dont want... Ofcourse you are free to choose what you dont want. Many do it every day. They go to work, even if they dont want. They do millions of acts that they do not want for different reasons. 

I would be better at showing you freedom of will in personal conversation, because you will be able to see my unconscious movements as well as the conscious ones, seeing that in reality, I am free to do what has not occurred to me, and am doing it already. 

[Dodo]

4 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Dodo I think you perhaps missed something along the way. 

Even if you were 'God' with total freedom to do anything you want.. if you are not free to want 'other than what you do want'.. where is the freedom? 

Do you constantly think about beating your heart or breathing? No, but you do it. You don't do it? How do you know you're not the one who does it? Maybe you have a wrong identification. Maybe you are the one who beats the heart and breathes the breath as well as the conscious stuff too. 

[Mason Riggle]

1 minute ago, Dodo said:

I think you miss a point too! You are talking about being free to choose what you dont want... Ofcourse you are free to choose what you dont want. Many do it every day. They go to work, even if they dont want. They do millions of acts that they do not want for different reasons. 

 

This is not correct.  People might 'think' they are doing what they don't want to do.. but they are really doing exactly what they want to do.. which is doing something they think they don't want to do. 

It's just that there is some stronger 'want' they don't recognize.. I don't want to wash the dishes.. but I do, because my desire for the dishes to be washed is greater than my desire to 'not wash them'. 

Wanting and 'not wanting' are the same thing..  

[Mason Riggle]

4 minutes ago, Dodo said:

Do you constantly think about beating your heart or breathing? No, but you do it. You don't do it? How do you know you're not the one who does it? Maybe you have a wrong identification. Maybe you are the one who beats the heart and breathes the breath as well as the conscious stuff too. 

The only thing I ever do is 'be myself' and I never have to try to do it.  I happen automatically.  I couldn't 'not be myself' if I tried, because 'trying not to be how I am being' is just more 'how I am being'. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[The0Self]

Simply, you don’t want the end of apparent separation. It’s death.

There isn’t anyone who has free will. There also isn’t anyone who doesn’t have free will. There isn’t anyone period lol. Only way that stays hidden is the experience that what appears is real and meaningful and is leading to a future that’s better based upon my correct choices that I make through free will.

You do not want to break that illusion, but unfortunately for you, there isn’t actually an illusion.

There are experiences and glimpses that can happen, where free will is seen through completely, even while a me still seems to be in play. They don’t last very long but they certainly can happen. Happened to me quite a bit.

Edited June 10, 2021 by The0Self

[Mason Riggle]

"Why we still keep Acting like we have Free Will?"

Because we have no choice! 

[Dodo]

40 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

The only thing I ever do is 'be myself' and I never have to try to do it.  I happen automatically.  I couldn't 'not be myself' if I tried, because 'trying not to be how I am being' is just more 'how I am being'. 

Ok but you see what you're saying is that you have decided, from your own free will to not "try to be how you're not" because its more of "how you are" if you did that. So that means its perfectly cool to do that. 

Why are you choosing not to? Free will. More of that free will, but you unconsciously think it's not free, because you've not explored to the limits and beyond them. (or you have and forgot)

I can be on both sides of this argument. It's about perspective and thinking that any one of the two points of view has won the argument is not correct. 

 

[The0Self]

Literally no pointer works, so don’t even try to get it; there’s truly nothing to get, but:

There’s already just what’s immediately appearing, and there isn’t anyone separate from what appears to do anything about it, and it’s obvious, and the obviousness has no affect on what appears, because it isn’t separate either.

[Mason Riggle]

@Dodo  I am something that is happening, not 'doing'.  Sure the organism 'Mason Riggle' does things, but it does them all by itself. There is no 'me' hiding somewhere inside my organism 'doing my organism'.  It doesn't have to 'try to be itself'.. it just is itself.  A thinking, breathing, growing system. 

What you take to be the 'thinker' of thoughts is just more thoughts.. what your organism imagines to be the 'doer' of what it's doing doesn't exist. 

There is no separate 'you' inside your organism somewhere telling your organism what to do.. your organism functions automatically, exactly how it will, and no other way. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Dodo]

48 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

The only thing I ever do is 'be myself' and I never have to try to do it.  I happen automatically.  I couldn't 'not be myself' if I tried, because 'trying not to be how I am being' is just more 'how I am being'. 

I agree no free will in the past. Anything that happened happened there is no point to think about how it could be different, unless that knowledge can be applied now for the better. Otherwise its a waste of time. 

But the scalpel of no free will ends there. Scalpel of no free will cannot enter the present moment,  as it is too small for it.

If you think my thoughts appear and then I write them, that's misunderstanding of how my mind works. There are so many things happening, but one thing is certain. Everything that comes out of the present moment is fresh and new. 

Even a regurgitated thought of the past is fresh and new. And I can write thousands of words without even having a conceptual thought in my mind. The fingers just go about the keys and write. 

Anything I write to you is fresh and new. And yes, I did not gather what im saying from an infinite database that im aware of beforehand so I can say I've chosen every word with complete freedom of choice. Thats not what free will is to begin with. Its a misperception of free will that you have to know everything in order to be free in your choice. 

[Dodo]

6 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Dodo  I am something that is happening, not 'doing'.  Sure the organism 'Mason Riggle' does things, but it does them all by itself. There is no 'me' hiding somewhere inside my organism 'doing my organism'.  It doesn't have to 'try to be itself'.. it just is itself.  A thinking, breathing, growing system. 

What you take to be the 'thinker' of thoughts is just more thoughts.. what your organism imagines to be the 'doer' of what it's doing doesn't exist. 

There is no separate 'you' inside your organism somewhere telling your organism what to do.. your organism functions automatically, exactly how it will, and no other way. 

That would be the case for a robot, not for an alive being! You misperceive what human is.

[Mason Riggle]

@Dodo 'fresh and new' doesn't mean 'free will'.. a tree somewhere is sprouting fresh and new flowers as we speak.. do you think this means trees have free will?  Could it have grown it's flowers some other way than how it is, just because the one it's growing now has never been grown before?

Edited June 10, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[The0Self]

2 minutes ago, Dodo said:

That would be the case for a robot, not for an alive being! You misperceive what human is.

Everything functions the same way. It’s already just what seems to appear. Already. As in there’s no separate time for a choice to have been made “about” it. Apparent choices are not separate from what is immediately appearing without cause.

[WelcometoReality]

2 hours ago, LastThursday said:

Ah yes free will.

Free Will™ is nothing but ownership of action. For as long as you believe in a "you" then "your" actions belong to you, and so were freely dictated by you. When the smokescreen of a "you" clears, then action belongs to no-one and so free will evaporates.

And then there is only movement from and with wholeness

1 hour ago, Dodo said:

Do we then conclude that the murderer is a murderer so that the judge can play out his delusion of being a judge? Or for the hero to play out its delusion of being a hero? Kind of making the criminals the real heroes! Wow, they signed up for that?? That's crazy. Selfless souls, to be portrayed as evil, but having no choice. 

Judgements fall away. Good and evil fall away. Heroes fall away.

[The0Self]

1 minute ago, WelcometoReality said:

Judgements fall away. Good and evil fall away. Heroes fall away.

?