Why we still keep Acting like we have Free Will?

[SQAAD]

Even after 4 years of spiritual work i find myself acting and behaving like i have free will. And i think this happens to many other people who pursue spirituality. Even though i have observed that free will is an illusion , still practically i am not to a point that i truly embody it... To some degree i am but still not enough.

Despite knowing that Everything is absolutely Inevitable and i am just watching a movie that has already been filmed, i still get mad, feel regrets, put blame on myself and etc. I know that all these feelings of regret and remorse are normal and helpful for survival. But still i am caught up in the illusion.

If tomorrow i get cancer for example, it's not like my 1st reaction would be 'Oh great that was inevitable and i can't blame myself'. That would take much  more Consciousness to do. I don't believe there are many spiritual people who truly embody that free will is an illusion.

Any thoughts?

Edited June 10, 2021 by SQAAD

[Godishere]

Maybe you don't actually want that? 

[LfcCharlie4]

Because, Consciousness is absolutely free.

when you see through the illusion of the separate self, the question of free will naturally drops away, and then you simply have absolute Freedom as consciousness. 

[kinesin]

You seem to be under the impression that a person who truly recognises the absence of free will would behave differently.  Why would that be the case?  You're a human being, so naturally you're going to do all the typical things a human being does like get mad, feel regrets etc.  Even after you recognise the lack of free will, you're still a human being.

[Mason Riggle]

32 minutes ago, kinesin said:

You seem to be under the impression that a person who truly recognises the absence of free will would behave differently.  Why would that be the case?  You're a human being, so naturally you're going to do all the typical things a human being does like get mad, feel regrets etc.  Even after you recognise the lack of free will, you're still a human being.

^exactly.   Nobody acts like they have free will, because there is no such thing as 'acting like you have free will'.   No one has any idea what 'acting like they have free will' is like.    

Consider what it would be like for a whirlpool to discover it wasn't causing itself to swirl around.. what would that change for the whirlpool? Would it suddenly stop swirling? Of course not. 

There are certain behaviors, of course, that were influenced by 'the belief in having free will', that change when that belief is dispelled.  For example, when it's recognized that no one is authoring their own thoughts, it ceases making sense to treat others as if they are personally responsible for being how they are, and so things like 'judgement' also stop making sense.. and so a being who is successful in consistently dispelling their own belief in 'free will', will be more successful at 'not judging'.. not because 'not judging' is a good thing to do.. but because the alternative no longer makes sense. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Mason Riggle
grammar

[LastThursday]

Ah yes free will.

Free Will™ is nothing but ownership of action. For as long as you believe in a "you" then "your" actions belong to you, and so were freely dictated by you. When the smokescreen of a "you" clears, then action belongs to no-one and so free will evaporates.

Edited June 10, 2021 by LastThursday

[WelcometoReality]

@SQAAD Few are willing to let freedom go because having freedom feels good and letting freedom go feels bad. Which is the main driving force of the personal will. Letting go of freedom Into total stuckness is the way to truth.

[Mason Riggle]

@WelcometoReality yes, recognizing that there is no freedom, is counterintuitively... absolutely liberating!

[gettoefl]

you love the story too much, the illusion is too intoxicating to give up

even when you have seen the separate self as false, you still have the choice to live falsely, everyone else lives so, right?

integration of true self is harder than realization of true self

the former takes work, pain and grace

Edited June 10, 2021 by gettoefl

[Dodo]

10 minutes ago, WelcometoReality said:

@SQAAD Few are willing to let freedom go because having freedom feels good and letting freedom go feels bad. Which is the main driving force of the personal will. Letting go of freedom Into total stuckness is the way to truth.

 

7 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@WelcometoReality yes, recognizing that there is no freedom, is counterintuitively... absolutely liberating!

Do we then conclude that the murderer is a murderer so that the judge can play out his delusion of being a judge? Or for the hero to play out its delusion of being a hero? Kind of making the criminals the real heroes! Wow, they signed up for that?? That's crazy. Selfless souls, to be portrayed as evil, but having no choice. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Dodo

[Mason Riggle]

@Dodo what happens happens.. is happening.. and continues to happen.. exactly if, when, and how it WILL..

[Dodo]

Just now, Mason Riggle said:

@Dodo what happens happens.. is happening.. and continues to happen.. exactly if, when, and how it WILL..

yeah I know the famous Ramana Maharshi quote "everything that can happen will happen, try and stop it" etc etc.. But that can also be seen as you claiming that it will happen in this way rather than that way,.. And if it happens to happen the other way, you simply say "Well this is how it is supposed to happen"

The thing is you can claim this is how it is supposed to happen, because it cannot happen in two ways, but that doesn't mean anything, since we can make an impact and change things. They would have been different if we didn't act etc etc. But you would say "There is no "woulds" but there are! In the smallest and in the largest of scales, there definitely are "woulds"! 

I offer you 2 plans of action: 1) Cut your own hands 2) don't

See how there is a difference based on whatever you choose. I know what you will choose, but for the sake of argument, there are 2 possibilities now and it is up to you! If you choose number 1), you will have to type with your feet. 

If you choose 1) you cannot choose 2), if you choose 2) you cannot choose 1), meaning in both cases it will be what it is. But there is quality difference between the choices. So talking about no free will etc, is only cosmetic, it is not actual. 

 

[Mason Riggle]

@Dodo if the Justice System was no longer based in the idea that individuals are personally responsible for their actions, it would switch from a more 'retributive' system to a more pragmatic system, where it removes people from society to protect society, acts as a deterrent, and focuses more on rehabilitation, than punishment.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Mason Riggle]

4 minutes ago, Dodo said:

since we can make an impact and change things. They would have been different if we didn't act etc etc.

Any attempt to change what's occurring is just more 'what's occurring'. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Dodo said:

. But you would say "There is no "woulds" but there are! In the smallest and in the largest of scales, there definitely are "woulds"! 

Woulds, Coulds (and Shoulds) are always actually, 'would ifs' and 'could ifs' (and 'should ifs')...  This 'would' happen IF conditions are such that it happens.  This 'could' happen IF conditions are such that they do happen.  Conditions at any moment are whatever they are, and never other than what they are. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Dodo]

3 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

Any attempt to change what's occurring is just more 'what's occurring'. 

 

 

Woulds and Coulds are always actually, 'would ifs' and 'could ifs'...  This 'would' happen IF conditions are such that it happens.  This 'could' happen IF conditions are such that they do happen.  Conditions at any moment are whatever they are, and never other than what they are. 

That would be true if everything you do and happens depends on environment and conditions. You forget you can make new thoughts out of nothingness. We have unlimited imagination to work with. There is always free will when you can make a duck out of nothingness in your mind.

We are definitely robots, what you are explaining is how a robot society would work.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Dodo

[Mason Riggle]

2 minutes ago, Dodo said:

There is always free will when you can make a duck out of nothingness in your mind.

What will you think next? Do you know before the thought arises? Where is the freedom? 

[Dodo]

4 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

What will you think next? Do you know before the thought arises? Where is the freedom? 

Hi, Sam Harris, but I have been through all this stuff earlier in my journey. I was always arguing against free will with my friends and everyone. I know the tests proposed by Sam Harris and how convincing it all is. 

Still

I can create a thought right now, which does not exist anywhere else. The real question is, where is the absence of freedom? 

You are absolutely free to think about things that you do not even know about. You dont have to know your next thought for it to be free. 

I can imagine non-conceptual thoughts and add 1 to it, it has never existed anywhere else. Trust me, if it existed exactly this way before, it was without the addition of 1. If it existed with the addition of 1, I add another 1. 

Tell me how is there no freedom, if I can think of something that has never been thought of before? Who feeds me this unique and personalised information? 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Dodo

[Mason Riggle]

@Dodo

1 minute ago, Dodo said:

 

I can imagine non-conceptual thoughts and add 1 to it, it has never existed anywhere else. Trust me, if it existed exactly this way before, it was without the addition of 1. If it existed with the addition of 1, I add another 1. 

Tell me how is there no freedom, if I can think of something that has never been thought of before? 

'Can IF'.. you can imagine... IF that occurs.    If it never occurred to you to 'add 1', could you do it? 

[Mason Riggle]

@Dodo there are a whole set of conditions that have to occur for you to imagine 'adding 1' that you have nothing to do with.. could you do it IF you were a fish? Could you do it IF you had no concept of '1' or 'adding'?  

[Dodo]

3 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Dodo

'Can IF'.. you can imagine... IF that occurs.    If it never occurred to you to 'add 1', could you do it? 

You are dissecting too much. 

I would have added a dot. It could be many different things added to it to make it unique. I ask you who or what these things occur to? It must be me, the one who has freedom of will. Otherwise, it could not occur to me, I would just be a robot that follows the environment. The environment has an impact, but we have freedom element which is rather invisible so you can't really point to it.

You will know it if you realise you can create something from nothing in your mind. It can happen with or without occuring to you that you can. You can just notice it! The freedom is the space in which mind happens. And it is infinite...

Determinism / no-freewill is a phase and a way to feel good about what has happened. It is true we cannot change the past. Its ok to look at past deterministically. But not at present. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Dodo