Brains affect the content of consciousness because we're localized inside the dream?

[RMQualtrough]

I was just doing a little thought experiment assuming that this waking world is literally a dream.

All of it, all matter etc is part of the dream.

All aspects of us apart from pure consciousness (the dreamer) are part of the dream. Seeing is part of the dream. Hearing is part of the dream. Physical matter can be responsible for causing our localized selves to see or hear because our localized selves are localized inside this dream.

So for example, say we had a dream and in that "universe", there is a brain and the laws of the dream dictate that if you stimulate the left frontal lobe or something, the sensation of fear appears. Well because we are then localized selves inside that universe, that would be our experience if inside the dream we were to do that.

The localized self adheres to the setup of the "dream" (universe) it is inside of. In this "dream", something called matter exists which form brains and brains cause seeing. Because we are ALSO inside this dream, we require a brain to see. Inside this dream is space and time, which we experience because it is part of the dream we're localized in.

Sheer consciousness I am considering is literally void/nothingness (because without experience there is no longer an experiencer), and yet it's also everythingness at the same time. Everything exists inside nothingness. Nothingness is God. Nothingness is Absolute? When the localized form ceases to have experience, all that is left is that sheer consciousness/void/nothing.

We came from "nothing" and still are nothing?

[The0Self]

Only thing is there’s no cause and effect, only apparent correlation. An apparent quantized moment of zero time is not substantial enough to carry causality. Infinite moments each carrying zero causality still amounts to zero causality. Time-self-thing is a completely empty, dependently-arising, self-contained tripod leaning only on itself.

4 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

Physical matter can be responsible for causing our localized selves to see or hear because our localized selves are localized inside this dream.

Physical matter is not responsible for anything, because it’s not separate from anything, so it can’t relate in time with anything — only apparently correlate.

Edited June 9, 2021 by The0Self

[RMQualtrough]

52 minutes ago, The0Self said:

Only thing is there’s no cause and effect, only apparent correlation. An apparent quantized moment of zero time is not substantial enough to carry causality. Infinite moments each carrying zero causality still amounts to zero causality. Time-self-thing is a completely empty, dependently-arising, self-contained tripod leaning only on itself.

Physical matter is not responsible for anything, because it’s not separate from anything, so it can’t relate in time with anything — only apparently correlate.

But everything we know apart from consciousness and qualia is inside the dream of spacetime. Matter is part of the dream as well as cause and effect.

We ourselves are inside the dream called spacetime so we can be manipulated by matter, since that's the laws of this particular dream.

Our localized forms have brains (v important to note brains are made of matter which is made of "God", so brains ARE part of the dream). In this dream called spacetime, subjective perception of the universe around us happens by sense organs and brains which allow these localized pockets of consciousness to experience these perceptions.

It's not that qualia doesn't exist as part of infinity already, it's just not perceived by things localized inside this spacetime without brains etc.

[The0Self]

@RMQualtrough But qualia is inseparable from its apparent physical correlates.

The only dream is that there is a dream, or that something is happening to me and therefore real. The physical universe just appears — it’s not a dream.

[Adamq8]

What if there is nothing but experiencing?

Experience experiences experience ???

What if the universe is only experience and experience has always been forever and ever.

What if nothingness is just a construction?

Not saying that this is true.

Have you ever in your entire life had something that is not an experience?

What if prior to your birth you had a different experience but the memory is not clear on that?

What if the universe is a field of phenomenal conciousness and there is naught else but experience?

The universal mind, the unconcious in jungian terms,  it is not unconcious as in not conciousness, but it is not a self reflective conciousness, "meta conciousness " but it is phenomenal conciousness, just like in a dream, you only know you are dreaming when you become lucid, exactly like in life when awakening occurs, then you become lucid also.

There is nothing else but phenomenal conciousness and it is always moving and changing aka impermance. 

The universal field is a transpersonal infinity of phenomenal conciousness, that is obvious in psychedelic trips, dreams,  NDE's etc.

What if reality is experience and there is nothing else?

Conciousness is the substratum of reality, it can go infinitely "low" and infinitely "high"

There is no limit to what kind of experiences thats possible.

Everything is brahman and that thou art. 

 

[RMQualtrough]

1 hour ago, The0Self said:

@RMQualtrough But qualia is inseparable from its apparent physical correlates.

The only dream is that there is a dream, or that something is happening to me and therefore real. The physical universe just appears — it’s not a dream.

Dream is metaphorical here. From inside of the dream is duality.

I saw Leo say in a video, that "God" is what is looking through our eyes. I get that. That thing is one and absolute.

The eyes and human it is sensing is finite and localized. Like in a dream we humans have, how could you possibly experience anything without being localized somewhere? E.g. something Spira said, if there is a dream of a beach, the moment you see the beach you are somewhere localized inside that dream. The second you have any experience there is duality.

Without duality when things return to a total nondual state, there is cessation.

Call this universe the "science dream". This is a dream where math, matter, space and time exists. Experience that happens inside here conforms to the universe it is happening in. It just so happens that in here, matter came together to create forms. The matter IS consciousness but it has no experience so if we could experience an atom's relative view it would be permanently in "Nirvana" (void/nothingness). It does not mean it is not consciousness it just has no experience (I am assuming).

When matter formed complex lifeforms and experience began to occur, consciousness is localized inside where that experience happens.

Like the dream of a beach thing, say there is some disembodied sight receptacle floating around a mountain, as soon as that exists, consciousness is localized into that point where there is experiencer and experience (the experience being the vision of the mountain).

Complex lifeforms are millions or perhaps billions of points of experience working together as a singular unit.

As you destroy the brain you are wittling away elements of localized consciousness. When localized consciousness is destroyed it stops being localized and is immediately sent back to the One, Absolute, Infinite, "God".

There is no issue I can see with brains literally causing localized experience. It is not creating the qualia or consciousness itself.

Or is there an issue with that theory?

[RMQualtrough]

1 hour ago, Adamq8 said:

What if there is nothing but experiencing?

Experience experiences experience ???

What if the universe is only experience and experience has always been forever and ever.

What if nothingness is just a construction?

Not saying that this is true.

Have you ever in your entire life had something that is not an experience?

What if prior to your birth you had a different experience but the memory is not clear on that?

What if the universe is a field of phenomenal conciousness and there is naught else but experience?

The universal mind, the unconcious in jungian terms,  it is not unconcious as in not conciousness, but it is not a self reflective conciousness, "meta conciousness " but it is phenomenal conciousness, just like in a dream, you only know you are dreaming when you become lucid, exactly like in life when awakening occurs, then you become lucid also.

There is nothing else but phenomenal conciousness and it is always moving and changing aka impermance. 

The universal field is a transpersonal infinity of phenomenal conciousness, that is obvious in psychedelic trips, dreams,  NDE's etc.

What if reality is experience and there is nothing else?

Conciousness is the substratum of reality, it can go infinitely "low" and infinitely "high"

There is no limit to what kind of experiences thats possible.

Everything is brahman and that thou art. 

I am theorizing it's deeper than experience. It's just "nothingness". It is consciousness by nature but without experience there isn't experiencer. Consciousness then exists but in a manner similar to how we experience general anaesthetic?

Anyway consider this...

Consider that humans are the ONLY things in the entire universe that can see red. If all humans stopped existing, the qualia of red can't be found anywhere anymore, it vanishes.

If a human is magically born again, red reappears.

In between those stages, the qualia of red "ceases". I am theorizing that in that period where there are no humans it returns to the Absolute/God where it """doesn't exist""". God contains ALL and infinite qualia whether they are being experienced or not.

Right now you can envision there very literally are infinite colors but they are all in God and not being experienced. But they have the potential to be.

In some other reality perhaps it is.

But where red "goes to" when nothing experiences it is the default and the Absolute. It is where our localized forms come from and go to. This dream is a dream of the "science universe" and experience happening inside this dream is localized here so adheres to the rules of this dream. E.g. gravity etc. And brains are just one such thing that exists which has "experience". Where there is experience there must be "experiencer", and the qualia is pulled from "God" (nothingness). Kill the brain and localization of experience etc ends and it goes back to where that red goes when nothing perceives it.

What do you think of that?

Perhaps consciousness isn't fundamental. Perhaps consciousness is just a possible quality of "God". And God is nothing.

Edited June 9, 2021 by RMQualtrough

[Adamq8]

@RMQualtrough But the general anaesticia is a "jump" In concious awareness, there is no possibility to remain in an unconcious state since it is like time travel.

What does that say about the nature of conciousness in my opinion? That conciousness can not experience unconciousness. 

But still there are people who has OBE's or remain as a silent witness through anesthesia as well so it is not really a valid argument for nothingness either, my GF was awake during surgery even tho she didnt feel anything and she was put to sleep.

A more valid point would be the cessation in meditation, but that as well may last for an eternity but it is not possible to "experience" it in that manner.

I like your theory btw.

Some teachers/lineages talk about the Absolute prior to conciousness but they also claim that it is an awareness with infinite potential and that conciousness is its agent.

Perhaps it is the case of a nothingness that exist or that it is being and non being at the same time and both and neither as it is said.

Perhaps nothingness is the "ground", maybe it is more of a principle then a being.

Like pure GOD in it self might not be a being but an creative principle that has no other choice then to actualize its infinite potential since it is not a being.

If that is the case then it is safe to conclude imo that conciousness is reality and it has always been since the Absolute is outside of time and space and it does what it does since it is what it is haha if you get me.

God is perhaps existence and non existence but transcend both.

It is a radical thing which kinda is impossible to grab. 

But the Absolute produces dreams and different universes and it is not two and then you are IT always and forever since time is the dream.

To paraphrase Donald Hoffmans statement : We are like kids in an infinite candy store ready to explore for all of eternity ??

There is no end to conciousness since there is no possibility to experience the absence of conciousness forever, then it is just experience happening to no one.

I think that it is possible to experience without a body and brain,  why wouldnt it?

What would say that is not possible?

You can experience yourself as a glass of orange juice lol.

So experience is the only thing that can happen since the Absolute is more or less like non existence to us, it is a principle and a produces infinite dreams and universes.

Nice conversation btw i really enjoy it. ?

[Adamq8]

But then we have the other side of the coin and if we borrow a terminology from the hindus,  a saguna brahman.

That is brahman with infinite qualities, infinite being with infinite conciousness and infinite experiences. 

Which is an infinite mind as well. 

I really like the saguna/nirguna brahman teachings.

Nirguna is more of a principle and saguna is the active part of brahman.

Nirguna=non being perhaps 

Saguna = GOD as it is traditionally known.

Perhaps you created the universe and this is a play since there is nothing to do.

Either bliss forever within itself or create exciting dreams where there are others and you forgot your true nature.

I think the both theories can be combined into one unified whole which can include Nothingness and everythingness.

An infinite fractal and it is also a holon.

That makes sense to me ? 

Infinite candy store with infinite possibilitys of horror,bliss,excitment,universes etc.

[RMQualtrough]

@Adamq8 Nice reference to Donald Hoffman. I enjoy his speeches.

I think though that with many teachers, what makes the idea inaccessible to "hardnosed scientific" type people, is that they say experience only has correlation in physical matter in a way that makes it seem like they're implying physical matter has no bearing at all on experience.

I don't think you need to deny the science of the external world or neuroscience etc. for nonduality to be true.

In fact, because this "dream" (the universe) IS God, science is perhaps one of the most divine practices of all alongside meditation, as exploration of the science of this universe is very literally an exploration of God, since God IS it.

I do not see any issue if the brain does in fact control what this "localized form" experiences. I do not see that it is any issue whatsoever or that it is contrary to nonduality in any way. Matter is made of consciousness, the brain is simply millions of years of evolution constructing a sort of superorganism where millions of points of experience work as one unit.

There isn't a combination problem because the little points of experience don't vanish... The combination problem is like hypothesizing that animals like horses are just one single giant cell. In reality, it is millions of cells, none of the smaller cells vanish when they come together as that horse.

23 minutes ago, Adamq8 said:

@RMQualtrough I think that it is possible to experience without a body and brain,  why wouldnt it?

What would say that is not possible?

Not only do I think it's possible, I think it is FACTUAL.

I think most robots are conscious.

Think of this... If there is a little robot vacuum cleaner, it moves around on wheels and has a laser sensor that detects when there is an object ahead so that it can turn.

When that laser detects a wall and sends a signal to the robot's chip, it turns. Why? Because it is AWARE that there is a wall ahead. It has KNOWLEDGE that a wall is ahead. If there was zero awareness that a wall is ahead, it wouldn't turn it would just run straight into it because it doesn't know the wall is there.

Because it is so alien to us this is almost impossible to understand, but I do not see how it could be any other way. By dictionary definition, that little robot is displaying an act of awareness. How could it not be?

So inside that robot there is a localized form of consciousness. When the robot is turned off, the localization is no more, like a whirpool in a river (whirpools being localized in the stream) going away leaving just river.

When our brains are turned off, the localization is no more.

Consciousness and qualia all exist inside God which is "nothingness" and the "place" where things go when there is nothing to experience them like the example of red.

[Adamq8]

2 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

@Adamq8 Nice reference to Donald Hoffman. I enjoy his speeches.

I think though that with many teachers, what makes the idea inaccessible to "hardnosed scientific" type people, is that they say experience only has correlation in physical matter in a way that makes it seem like they're implying physical matter has no bearing at all on experience.

I don't think you need to deny the science of the external world or neuroscience etc. for nonduality to be true.

In fact, because this "dream" (the universe) IS God, science is perhaps one of the most divine practices of all alongside meditation, as exploration of the science of this universe is very literally an exploration of God, since God IS it.

I do not see any issue if the brain does in fact control what this "localized form" experiences. I do not see that it is any issue whatsoever or that it is contrary to nonduality in any way. Matter is made of consciousness, the brain is simply millions of years of evolution constructing a sort of superorganism where millions of points of experience work as one unit.

There isn't a combination problem because the little points of experience don't vanish... The combination problem is like hypothesizing that animals like horses are just one single giant cell. In reality, it is millions of cells, none of the smaller cells vanish when they come together as that horse.

Not only do I think it's possible, I think it is FACTUAL.

I think most robots are conscious.

Think of this... If there is a little robot vacuum cleaner, it moves around on wheels and has a laser sensor that detects when there is an object ahead so that it can turn.

When that laser detects a wall and sends a signal to the robot's chip, it turns. Why? Because it is AWARE that there is a wall ahead. It has KNOWLEDGE that a wall is ahead. If there was zero awareness that a wall is ahead, it wouldn't turn it would just run straight into it because it doesn't know the wall is there.

Because it is so alien to us this is almost impossible to understand, but I do not see how it could be any other way. By dictionary definition, that little robot is displaying an act of awareness. How could it not be?

So inside that robot there is a localized form of consciousness. When the robot is turned off, the localization is no more, like a whirpool in a river (whirpools being localized in the stream) going away leaving just river.

When our brains are turned off, the localization is no more.

Consciousness and qualia all exist inside God which is "nothingness" and the "place" where things go when there is nothing to experience them like the example of red.

 It does make alot of sense when you put it that way and I cant say other then I mostly agree on what you are saying here.

Like what can possibly exist without an awareness of its surrounding?

Experiences ive had clearly points to the fact that it is conciousness that it is extremely empty/nothingness like space and everything in it is imagined in one way or another.

It is like empty space but full of possibility. 

It has a certain order or structure to it.

Atleast this dream universe has.

I wonder what dreams might come next it is just "sad" that I wont know how this dream went when another one starts. 

Perhaps there is some sort of akashic record with all the memories from this dream and others which one can access, I certainly see it as a possibility.

Either way conciousness is immortal and eternal no matter if its in pure nothingness or in "GOD" mode.

Tat tvam asi ?

 

[The0Self]

11 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

There is no issue I can see with brains literally causing localized experience. It is not creating the qualia or consciousness itself.

Or is there an issue with that theory?

No problem with that. Something can be considered the cause of an illusion (which isn’t actually happening) — that still fits with the reality that there is no cause and effect. Sure.

[Windappreciator]

@The0Self causality seems to be a form of correlation