how to heal pedophiles/killers/rapist/violent people

[tatsumaru]

30 minutes ago, mivafofa said:

I find it funny, almost exhasperating, yet unsurprising that the people who speak highly about rehabilitating psychos, never actually encountered one. 

The main limitation here is your lack of experience. @Windappreciator @tatsumaru  To find a real functioning solution to a problem, you first must truly understand 200% the danger it involves and the complexity the task implies. Do you realize your jolly theories hold absolutely no value when you have no experience in the matter?  You guys are acting the same as bystanders telling how to coach a ballerina better. Who do you think will know better how to make a ballerina excel? A random good coach? Or an equally good coach with years of ballet experience? 

All you guys do is theorizing and not even consider the warnings of people who actually faced these situations and tried countless time to resonate with stage red, DID do the dirty work you didn't do. Come back with experienced insights. And you guys still think your fairy tale theories could work nonetheless. That's being idealistic with a lack of pragmatism. 

You know what, let me throw one for fun too: "We could prevent injuries in wars by making the soldiers immortal" There. your only limitation is your imagination 

You say that but you can't even access to their frequency. If you did, you would've understood better what it implies. Try embodying stage red for a day. Be egocentric, predatory, ruthless, exploitative, power hungry, out for blood, dangerously corrupted. Can't do? Well what do you think you can accomplish now you can't even do step 1 

I empathize with your situation and I am sorry if you've gone through a hard time trying to help some like that without success. Feel free to vent if you need the immediate relief. However It does seem to me like you are struggling with some unresolved trauma from the past that tends to flavor most of your replies.

Also why are you so fascinated in reverting back to red? There's no need to go back in evolution to understand what the best course of action is, if that were true then solving infectious diseases would require us to revert to being bacteria. If you feel like you need to punish someone for having hurt you or to exact revenge on someone, realize that an eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind. “Problems cannot be solved with the same mind set that created them.”.

P.S.
Also what's with the prejudice telling everyone what they've experienced or haven't experienced? I understand that you are hurt, but this is very immature. Do you believe that if a person isn't feeling like you after being hurt then that means then they haven't experienced what you have experienced? By that logic everyone who's been hurt should hold an eternal grudge and declare the impossibility of uplifting society throughout their whole life. Maybe that's not the best way?

[Windappreciator]

@mivafofa

It is not my intention to deny the atrocious acts psychopaths and alike commit, I am all for protecting people from such harm. 

Should anything I said trigger something personal I deeply am sorry for that.

When I first wrote the post it was directed at Leokovski so I did not consider to formulate my response in more detail.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Windappreciator

[mivafofa]

17 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

Also why are you so fascinated in reverting back to red? There's no need to go back in evolution to understand what the best course of action is, if that were true then solving infectious diseases would require us to revert to being bacteria. If you feel like you need to punish someone for having hurt you or to exact revenge on someone, realize that an eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind. “Problems cannot be solved with the same mind set that created them.”.

I suppose you're talking about another thread where I gave up because you couldn't understand what was being tackled there.  It's called self-defense. @Preety_India was asking for self-defense tactics against stage red. Not about transcending and solving. It's too soon for that. You can transcend and solve maybe after you're protected and safe. Before that it's dangerous and honestly, impractical.

And I'll ask back, why are you so avoidant to revert back to red? If you had such a strong foundation in your current stage, then you would have no problem going back and forth. Instead, you're afraid as if your integrity would crumble the moment you revert. It just shows how shaky your substructure is. When substructure is deficient, your higher layer is very much based on a façade. You could've learned something down there to strengthen your structure, but no... you're too caught up at your perceived goodness and treating lower stage as beneath you. There are utilities to be learned at every stage, no matter how corrupted it is. Stage red has the strongest sense in boundaries. You'd need that facing psychos. You need to protect yourself and survive before saving anyone.

I'd recommend you visit a 3rd world country and live there for a while. It will humble you. 

 

@Windappreciator @tatsumaru With the greatest intention I'm sure, you guys care too much about what you interprete as my feelings or traumas or triggers lol.  You think too much about me rather than the message itself. I don't know what to tell you other than it's off-topic (irrelevant). 

[Preety_India]

3 minutes ago, mivafofa said:

I suppose you're talking about another thread where I gave up because you couldn't understand what was being tackled there.  It's called self-defense. @Preety_India was asking for self-defense tactics against stage red. Not about transcending and solving. It's too soon for that. You can transcend and solve maybe after you're protected and safe. Before that it's dangerous and honestly, impractical.

And I'll ask back, why are you so avoidant to revert back to red? If you had such a strong foundation in your current stage, then you would have no problem going back and forth. Instead, you're afraid as if your integrity would crumble the moment you revert. It just shows how shaky your substructure is. When substructure is deficient, your higher layer is very much based on a façade. You could've learned something down there to strengthen your structure, but no... you're too caught up at your perceived goodness and treating lower stage as beneath you. There are utilities to be learned at every stage, no matter how corrupted it is. Stage red has the strongest sense in boundaries. You'd need that facing psychos. You need to protect yourself and survive before saving anyone.

I'd recommend you visit a 3rd world country and live there for a while. It will humble you. 

 

@Windappreciator @tatsumaru With the greatest intention I'm sure, you guys care too much about what you interprete as my feelings or traumas or triggers lol.  You think too much about me rather than the message itself. I don't know what to tell you other than it's off-topic (irrelevant). 

Great answer. Appreciate. A lot of people take brutality for granted. 

 

[Windappreciator]

@mivafofa ? smooches

[bejapuskas]

@Preety_India @mivafofa  I guess guys don't usually understand so well because they are victims of this type of abuse less often, although sometimes still yes. And it's sad. I just think it is unfortunate that it is a kind of a taboo to talk about this from the female perspective and nobody educates guys about this, not even in sex education, it's all taken for granted. I have even heard some stories of kids who literally thought rape is fine.

[mivafofa]

34 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

nobody educates guys about this, not even in sex education, it's all taken for granted. I have even heard some stories of kids who literally thought rape is fine.

Yeah and I saw some ppl thinking unsolicited smooches in a middle of an argument is fine ?

*goosebumps*

[tatsumaru]

1 hour ago, mivafofa said:

I suppose you're talking about another thread where I gave up because you couldn't understand what was being tackled there.  It's called self-defense. @Preety_India was asking for self-defense tactics against stage red. Not about transcending and solving. It's too soon for that. You can transcend and solve maybe after you're protected and safe. Before that it's dangerous and honestly, impractical.

And I'll ask back, why are you so avoidant to revert back to red? If you had such a strong foundation in your current stage, then you would have no problem going back and forth. Instead, you're afraid as if your integrity would crumble the moment you revert. It just shows how shaky your substructure is. When substructure is deficient, your higher layer is very much based on a façade. You could've learned something down there to strengthen your structure, but no... you're too caught up at your perceived goodness and treating lower stage as beneath you. There are utilities to be learned at every stage, no matter how corrupted it is. Stage red has the strongest sense in boundaries. You'd need that facing psychos. You need to protect yourself and survive before saving anyone.

I'd recommend you visit a 3rd world country and live there for a while. It will humble you. 

 

@Windappreciator @tatsumaru With the greatest intention I'm sure, you guys care too much about what you interprete as my feelings or traumas or triggers lol.  You think too much about me rather than the message itself. I don't know what to tell you other than it's off-topic (irrelevant). 

Not sure why you believe that Spiral Dynamics is some sort of elevator or like some swiss army knife where you switch paradigms depending on the situation. Every higher level integrates the lower ones so that you never need to regress again. But every higher level also filters out the junk that lower paradigms had. There's no situations in which going back to a lower paradigm makes any sense. To be able to truly regress to a lower one you would actually have to forget why you transcended it in the first place. That's like saying, "sometimes when you are dealing with children, you have to go back to first grade and forget how to write" or something like this. Every paradigm is equipped to deal with all the challenges that the lower ones are. Your integrity would HAVE to actually crumble for you to be able to embody the mindset of a dictator (red). If you are feeling fine about red that's not because you are able to revert back to it, that's because you haven't ever transcended it in the first place.

1 hour ago, mivafofa said:

I'd recommend you visit a 3rd world country and live there for a while. It will humble you. 

Do not mistake your victim mentality for humility.

[mivafofa]

2 hours ago, bejapuskas said:

@Preety_India @mivafofa  I guess guys don't usually understand so well because they are victims of this type of abuse less often, although sometimes still yes. And it's sad. I just think it is unfortunate that it is a kind of a taboo to talk about this from the female perspective and nobody educates guys about this, not even in sex education, it's all taken for granted. I have even heard some stories of kids who literally thought rape is fine.

I just wanted to say, despite the non-concerning-you joke I made after, I really appreciated what you said there. Not many men seem to be aware of this fact and too many women ends up having to learn it the hard way. 

Consent should be included in sex education for both men and women. Countless women get coerced into sex or manipulated into it only to later realize much later it was rape during therapy, or while dealing with ptsds. A lot of men don't even know what consent is. They think if the woman is wet = consent. Or the man has an erection = consent. Men who face sexual assaults get ridiculized and diminished. Their reality laughed at and their pain trivalized from priviliedged people who never gone through the abuse themselves. And sadly, just like you said, most guys just can't understand it. Then they come with their high horse on how to deal with the situation. How to heal better. How you should've reacted better. How the blame is ultimately on you because you weren't strong or spiritual enough. What a privileged ignorance* 

So anyway, thanks for bringing awareness on the table. 

Edited June 11, 2021 by mivafofa

[Hap E-Boi]

Growth is always possible.

Not seeing this is a form of dogma.

Autism, ASPD, Pedophilia, not being curable is a very orange way of thinking: "it's a disorder, it's incurable" And so the prophecy is fulfilled.

When I was a child I was diagnosed with Aspergers as well as other disorders, and I've dwelled in stage red for most of my life, at least on an emotional level. Also I felt attracted towards men and I was having a lot of sex with different men. Not that any sexual orientation is wrong, but I was often putting myself in danger, even being raped several times and another time I've caught a bug. Cognitively I was rather green, but this gave me some eco-fascist ideas... think of Varg Vikernes.

Several years ago I had one foot in blue because I converted to Christianity. I wanted to better my life after I remembered my Christian stepmother giving me some hints before that. On an emotional level I was gradually becoming blue, but I had to crawl back my cognitive understanding of logic and science in order to fit in the blue dogma, also I developed some internal homophobia. Even thought I don't identify with any of those ideas anymore, I'm still thankful for myself because It reduced my risk taking behavior. Note that my stepmother was not homophobic at all, I feel like she dwells on the border with orange as I can use logic with her. At that time I also made statements that returning to the ways of Christ will solve the climate crisis.

At some point, because I had serious gut issues I cut gluten, diary, MSG and processed foods out of my diet. I added fatty fish, MCT oil, zinc supplements. It gave me an ego dissolution experience for one week, my internal homophobia went away, my interest in video games as well, etc. I felt loss of all desire, seeing of the truth which is beyond words, the "reason" for suffering, I felt infinite love and awareness beyond my body, to the point the whole universe became one. Also my sexual attraction shifted towards women, but I'm way less interested in sex in general. Not judging anything that came before.

Now knowing what to work towards and having more mental headroom, I gradually worked my way through orange. I was kinda over-labeling myself and others with things like narcissism n stuff, making statements that more technology will solve the climate crisis. However, recently being pushed to green due to the onset of electrohypersensitivity. forcing me to abandon a lot of orange "luxuries", making me see how empty and damaging they are. How Elon Musk is a danger to this planet, how electric cars are again an excuse from orange to cling to our luxury. I can think yellow most of the time, learning about spiral dynamics, seeing a bigger picture that what I just said is only partial truth, that even orange is not bad and has freed us from the most "toxic" form of dogma, which on his turn has freed us from the most "toxic" form of ego, it's all a process. Also I realized to solve our climate crisis we need a bit of all tiers, not just green. Furthermore I noticed how suffering pushes forward. I meditate A LOT and I'm able to since I'm on benefits. Often I have second tier experiences, but no way have I integrated this stuff yet.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Hap E-Boi

[kieranperez]

First off, the basis of the title is misleading because it’s only indicating and specifying particular actions (rape, pedophilia, murder, etc.) and not asking about the numerous different motivations and variables and psychological determinants that may lead many different individuals down such paths of action. Which, quite frankly is the wrong question nor helpful. 

It would also be helpful to be concrete and specific with what it is we’re actually talking about when we speak of things like healing. Psychological cases and motivations that lead people down those kinda paths can be incredibly varied. The short answer is that some of them can heal and be rehabilitated into healthy functioning individuals and some clearly cannot. The case for the former is quite simple and that is that we’ve all heard of people who have been through horrific upbringings end have caused immense suffering only to then turn their lives around 180 degrees and actually become a force for positive change and so forth. So we know some can. We also know those people out there that you simply can’t change. Hell, you don’t even need to be a murderer or rapist. That’s true for so many people living very ordinary lives. The guys that can’t stop gambling or drinking or really let go of their bad temper and so forth. One of the first things that needs to be in place is the motivation and drive to actually want to change. You can’t heal or change people who don’t want to heal or don’t want to change. 

Now, let’s go into more complicated territory. Let’s talk about issues like those that are clinically say  psychopathic or sociopathic or narcissistic personality disorder. Those kind of people that have legitimate brain deficiencies that don’t register nor have existent capacities for things like empathy, guilt, shame, and so forth. Let’s be clear, there is such a thing as healthy shame and guilt and those with psychopathy or sociopathy don’t have that. At all. If you ever actually meet such a person, you can actually see that aspect of their personality (in comparison to others) for who the lights just aren’t on in that sense. Such people are highly predatory and manipulative by temperament. They also have a very vague and undeveloped sense of self and a very weak ego structure, which is actually incredibly important. If you’re going to work with a narcissist, psychopath, or sociopath (which is a terribly foolish idea unless you’re a trained professional), helping them to feel like things shame and guilt and even depression is actually a good sign. It’s true that successful therapeutic intervention can facilitate progress in the sense that they can create coping strategies and even have tools to develop their sense of self but these kinds of people are going to be radically different than most people. You’re not going to turn a psychopath into some Dalai Lama like person. You’re just not. 

Edited June 15, 2021 by kieranperez

[kieranperez]

1 hour ago, d0ornokey said:

decisions can made from empathy, but empathy =/= not stupidity or naivety  

You’re assuming some people even have such a capacity. You’re underestimating the complex psychology behind many of these kinds of people. Try approaching a psychopath with empathy and he will just have an easy pass to manipulate you like you wouldn’t believe and you wouldn’t even know it. Try approaching some gang members from the hood with empathy and see how far that gets you. 

[lmfao]

I know a girl who did psychedelics with a male psychopath. Apparently he got some emotional trips and could feel more love and empathy, crying about his dog who died or something.

Dont know how much it carried into his sober state though. Change is hard for anyone

Edited June 16, 2021 by lmfao

[kieranperez]

Just now, lmfao said:

I know a girl who did psychedelics with a male psychopath. Apparently he got some emotional trips and could feel more love, but I dont know how it carried into his sober state. 

Psychopaths can feel love and can feel certain emotions. They specifically lack things such as empathy, guilt, shame, etc. (which is not a healthy, desirable, or good thing). 
 

The first 5 videos is a 5 part series of a woman who has psychopathy basically saying what it’s like to be her, her experience, and so on. The last video is a woman who is clinically diagnosed as a narcissistic sociopath. I know somebody whose a functioning psychopath that runs a coffee shop. Tbh I never would have been able to tell but he has a high turnover rate with his employees because of the way he treats them.

[kieranperez]

2 hours ago, d0ornokey said:

even from these guys i expect empathy (at the highest level)

That’s nothing short of foolish. You might as well expect emotional fluency from someone whose autistic or retarded. Your expectations have to do with you and you alone. All of that is about you and this naive view watered down understanding of the complexities of human psychology. 

2 hours ago, d0ornokey said:

the way  i see it is i wouldnt want to condemn judge or misunderstand them and see where theyre coming from

Yeah, and that’s exactly how you’d get manipulated and exploited. You’re going to judge people anyways because you already do along with everybody else. 

[lmfao]

On 16/06/2021 at 7:47 AM, kieranperez said:

Psychopaths can feel love and can feel certain emotions.

They can feel love? I guess I wouldn't know lol

https://www.quora.com/Can-psychopaths-feel-love/answer/Athena-Walker?ch=10&share=e5fd6ff9&srid=uw0xx

Edited June 18, 2021 by lmfao

[Ajay0]

Kiran Bedi was India's first female IPS (Indian police service ) officer, who was noted for her innovative prison reforms which gained worldwide acclaim and won her the Ramon Magsaysay Award in 1994. In 2003, Bedi became the first woman to be appointed as head of the United Nations Police and Police Advisor in the United Nations Department of Peace Operations.

 Bedi's  famous prison reforms was to introduce yoga and vipassana meditation classes to change prisoner attitudes of a criminal nature. This model was highly successful in terms of results and consequently was replicated around the world in Brazil, Canada,  Israel, Mongolia, Myanmar, New Zealand, Taiwan, Thailand, United Kingdom and the United States.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doing_Time,_Doing_Vipassana

https://prison.dhamma.org/

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/19/britains-most-dangerous-prisoners-to-get-meditation-lessons

https://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/09/prison.meditation/index.html

S.N.Goenka, the principal teacher and educator of Vipassana meditation around the world, had this to say with respect to crime and criminal tendencies from the perspective of buddhist psychology...

" It is impossible to commit an unwholesome action—to insult, kill, steal, or rape without generating great agitation in the mind, great craving and aversion. This moment of craving or aversion brings unhappiness now, and more in the future."

 

 Buddhist psychology and techniques like mindfulness and vipassana can be useful tools in reforming the criminal behavior of prisoners for the better around the world.

Mindfulness as a practice has also been endorsed by western psychiatry as complementing therapy effectively or having clinical applications.

https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/mindfulness

  In fact, this theme of application of meditation techniques to reform criminals have their origin in the story of Angulimala, a serial killer in ancient India who was reformed into a harmless monk by the Buddha.

 

[Heart of Space]

I'd say force them all to do hard and monotonous manual labor.  That will effectively address all the underlying psychological issues which motivates them to do wrong.  

edit:  I have a brain made of straw, don't listen to me.  

Edited June 20, 2021 by Heart of Space

[John Paul]

Raise the vibration of the whole society- Influence their value systems and minds to evolve and the problem will be drastically reduced.

[kieranperez]

4 hours ago, d0ornokey said:

i am saying compassion from our side, not from theirs. 

I know that what you’re saying. 

4 hours ago, d0ornokey said:

theoretically

theory that is not grounded in or mates experience is not useful. Especially when it comes to things like psychotherapy, “healing”, etc. Practice based on theoretical/abstract idealism doesn’t heal people. 

Mondo you, I am not claiming sociopaths and psychopaths can’t live productive lives, have relationships, etc. They can. Part of what I am saying though is to not expect them to have the same psychological capacities or expect them to show up the same as those that don’t have say cluster-b personality disorders. That’s just not a fair, realistic, nor honest expectation to have. We’re not gonna all show up the same. I am not saying that I think that’s what your saying but this is sort of inevitable presumptions when people think or believe that “everybody can be healed” because… what does that even mean? That doesn’t really say anything. 

4 hours ago, d0ornokey said:

yeah thats how the mind works

It’s not useful to speak or think of people’s psychology and personality as like a generic thing. Working with criminals who have things like sociopathy, psychopathy, or those kinds of cases isn’t at all gonna be the same as most people you find on the street. 
 

@Ajay0 thanks for the links and references. I appreciate that kind of post so I want to encourage the spirit of that. Mindfulness based stuff in prisons does seem to be pretty helpful but that said, our prisons need a more complete overhaul of our intention would be to have them truly be able to become productive contributing members of society. Plus, many of the most dangerous prison systems are in the very countries you listed. I imagine the only reason they implemented something like mindfulness practice in their prison systems is precisely because it’s so bad. 
 

Regarding the story of the Buddha, I am familiar with that story and I could certainly imagine certain beings could be really transformative for certain prisoner types. I doubt that would work for everybody though. I could be wrong about that though (and I hope I am).