how to heal pedophiles/killers/rapist/violent people

[tatsumaru]

8 hours ago, mivafofa said:

This.

 

Because after all, you can't help them, let alone heal them.  It was a painful reality I had to face too.  Only them can save themselves when and if  they're willing to. It's no one's else burden to do so and frankly, it's an extremely heavy baggage to take on. It would suck your soul empty. It's emotionally, mentally, physically, financially, spiritually draining. You come out of there with several PTSDs, having to book your own therapists and earned yourself a life long time of healing. Congratz and for what? For one Narcissist to potentially consider therapy as an optional supply... maybe. yay.

The only reality you faced is that you couldn't help them, not that they couldn't be helped.

This reminds me about how in 1839 Dr. Alfred Velpeau said:
"The abolishment of pain in surgery is a chimera. It is absurd to go on seeking it today.
'Knife' and 'pain' are two words in surgery that must forever be associated in the consciousness of the patient. To this compulsory combination we shall have to adjust ourselves."

There have been countless statements like this one in history, all kinds of people stuck in their paradigms thinking they've reached the limits of what's possible only to be broken by next generations who didn't have these biases. Let your conclusions go.

It's not our place to make premature conclusions about what's possible and what isn't. However what is the wise move is realize that certain paradigms aren't effective and that looking at life from certain perspectives won't lead to the solution you are looking for. When that paradigm is exhausted, drop that paradigm and evolve.

I understand that you like closure and want to make a conclusion, however life isn't about closures. It's about growth. We learn to live without closure and that unlocks our full potential.
 

54 minutes ago, Shin said:

It's not possible to not have policemen and prisons as of now, I don't know how you can't see that and I don't know how to articulate this well enough to be able to explain why it's impossible where we're at, but it really isn't.

That might be true or not. Yes from a systems thinking perspective there are certain ratios and rate of growth that aren't infinitely fast and therefore social reforms aren't instant. Regardless this shouldn't be viewed as some static fact and aware people should be pushing society to evolve beyond its static views of right and wrong, good and bad. Everything can be transformed. Not just to evolve the state of society but also to evolve the rate of evolution itself. What if it's possible to simply touch a serial killer on their forehead and create instant enlightenment? You could say no way, it took me 10 years to realize awareness and I wasn't even a psychopath. Maybe. But maybe you can figure out better solutions for raising awareness than what you relied on. Plenty of stories in spiritual traditions about instant enlightenment. Whether they are true or not is irrelevant, they can be used as a counter-weight to biases about what's possible for these biases are always wrong.

[bejapuskas]

Being a pedophile does not mean that you go around raping kids and stalking them on playground, although that's how the word is usually used. The actual definition is different: "Pedophilia, also spelled paedophilia, also called pedophilic disorder or pedophilia disorder, in conventional usage, a psychosexual disorder, generally affecting adults, characterized by sexual interest in prepubescent children or attempts to engage in sexual acts with prepubescent children"

Notice the "OR". There are many pedophiles who are in fact ashamed of their feelings and seek therapy, that is not legal in most countries. (But for example in Germany it is possible) There is even such a thing as pedophilia OCD where a person has intrusive thoughts about potentially being a pedophile or even killer OCD, rape OCD etc... For these people, self-love actually is the cure and like the only way for them to accept themselves and better their mental state. (Those are the people who are not criminals)

There also is not much evidence that long prison sentences, death penalty or life-long imprisonment would solve such issues or like keep people from committing crimes. If somebody is seriously unconscious, they are not gonna say like "Oh, I wish I could kill this person, but that death penalty man..." They just go do it without thinking much. Why would people go to prison for punishment instead of as punishment, when the end goal is to make them into better people who do not cause harm? That's not what isolation and violent treatment does to anyone. It just fucks people up.

[Seeker531]

I don't want to attack anyone here. I'd rather want to point out the absurdity of the point where the talk's lead to. If people don't open their mind to other pov's, they can clearly not be made to, especially by pushing. Well, how do you imagine to even  change/help another person if this person isn't open to it. People just don't see what is wrong and if they would see it they would be already improved. Even normal people can't be change unless they want to, let alone real stage red psychopaths. most people simply aren't interested in healing and the necessary labor. However people do things for different reasons and some are willing to be reformed. 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2021 by Seeker531

[tatsumaru]

13 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

Being a pedophile does not mean that you go around raping kids and stalking them on playground, although that's how the word is usually used. The actual definition is different: "Pedophilia, also spelled paedophilia, also called pedophilic disorder or pedophilia disorder, in conventional usage, a psychosexual disorder, generally affecting adults, characterized by sexual interest in prepubescent children or attempts to engage in sexual acts with prepubescent children"

Notice the "OR". There are many pedophiles who are in fact ashamed of their feelings and seek therapy, that is not legal in most countries. (But for example in Germany it is possible) There is even such a thing as pedophilia OCD where a person has intrusive thoughts about potentially being a pedophile or even killer OCD, rape OCD etc... For these people, self-love actually is the cure and like the only way for them to accept themselves and better their mental state. (Those are the people who are not criminals)

There also is not much evidence that long prison sentences, death penalty or life-long imprisonment would solve such issues or like keep people from committing crimes. If somebody is seriously unconscious, they are not gonna say like "Oh, I wish I could kill this person, but that death penalty man..." They just go do it without thinking much. Why would people go to prison for punishment instead of as punishment, when the end goal is to make them into better people who do not cause harm? That's not what isolation and violent treatment does to anyone. It just fucks people up.

In the current society prison's role is not so much to reform but to restrict so called criminals from the rest of society and use them as cheap labor. I would say that for most, prison makes them worse.

6 minutes ago, Seeker531 said:

I don't want to attack anyone here. I'd rather want to point out the absurdity of the point where the talk's lead to. If people don't open their mind to other pov's, they can clearly not be made to, especially by pushing. Well, how do you imagine to even  change/help another person if this person isn't open to it. People just don't see what is wrong and if they would see it they would be already improved. Even normal people can't be change unless they want to, let alone real stage red psychopaths. most people simply aren't interested in healing and the necessary labor. 

If they need to become open to being helped in order to be helped your job is to figure out what makes a person open to help and facilitate this first before the actual help. Just think of cause in effect not of possible/impossible. If something needs to happen before the actual therapy then think about how you cause that prerequisite to happen. If something needs to happen before that even the think about that thing etc. The main limitation is your imagination here.

[Windappreciator]

1 hour ago, Seeker531 said:

I don't want to attack anyone here. I'd rather want to point out the absurdity of the point where the talk's lead to. If people don't open their mind to other pov's, they can clearly not be made to, especially by pushing. Well, how do you imagine to even  change/help another person if this person isn't open to it. People just don't see what is wrong and if they would see it they would be already improved. Even normal people can't be change unless they want to, let alone real stage red psychopaths. most people simply aren't interested in healing and the necessary labor. However people do things for different reasons and some are willing to be reformed. 

 

 

You go onto their frequency and from that slowly raise regularly over time more and more.

[Seeker531]

@tatsumaru this is a fair point and you are partly right. I just want to give the missing part of the picture. Yes, there are people who are willing to learn from their mistakes and can be helped. One can care for them and some might open up when they see that they are not demonized a d cared for but it is not that simple , especially on a bigger scale, because it would involve a lot of one on one work and a combo of therapies as every person is different.

Did you inquire how much selfishness and "evil" in every one of us is? Most people don't want to accept or even face it. 

I don't say it's impossible but that Leo is right with the issue of resources. One of the outmost damaged persons might need 1000x more help to open up than a not so much damaged person. even for a still deep damaged person who is still quite traumatized would need so much work from both sides and that's still a life's work. Many people don't want to do that, nor they can. They are lost in victim mind.  

I grew up in a red inviroment and I know that many of them neither know that there is something wrong with them nor what healing is. They think that's just how the world is and every thing else, including psychology are only airy fairy tales. When one comes along who is compassionate in the wrong way, they start exploiting and damaging them. But it depends on the damage of the person. 

Yes, one can facilitate and provide good conditions for help but that is very limited and still a gamble if the other person is open to it.  It's basically like spirituality. Many teachers try to make it as tasty as possible but most people turn away as soon as they get a taste of shit starting coming up. 

Additionally, I think that psychological help is in very bad cases never close to enough because people don't learn how their mind works and how much they can do by mindfully changing stuff. But it's still dependent on the openess and willingness of the person. 

 

Edited June 11, 2021 by Seeker531

[Seeker531]

@Windappreciator

That sounds good on paper but put it in practice and see how far you come. For your example the person would have been open to change or at least the possibility to begin with. Might help a few.

Try to put that in practice and help at least one deeply depressed person and then a violent one. 

I've often observed that when your vibes are too high for a deeply depressed, person, he will become aggressive or even offensive. 

One can even see that with discontented people. 

 

[Windappreciator]

8 minutes ago, Seeker531 said:

@Windappreciator

That sounds good on paper but put it in practice and see how far you come. For your example the person would have been open to change or at least the possibility to begin with. Might help a few.

Try to put that in practice and help at least one deeply depressed person and then a violent one. 

I've often observed that when your vibes are too high for a deeply depressed, person, he will become aggressive or even offensive. 

One can even see that with discontented people. 

 

what, no thankfulness for closing this hole? or is your name not seeker?

all we do here is on paper, so if it sounds good to you there is no reason for you to deny follwing implications.

it's pretty obvious that is an overarching concept.

a lack of inquiry is part of what keeps people from approximating

[Tangerinedream]

 

[Tangerinedream]

Paedophiles were also sexually abused as children so they had to reject their own childhood and innocence and grow up fast.  So they try to get back their own lost innocence as an adult...it’s searching for that lost part of you 

[tatsumaru]

1 hour ago, Seeker531 said:

@tatsumaru this is a fair point and you are partly right. I just want to give the missing part of the picture. Yes, there are people who are willing to learn from their mistakes and can be helped. One can care for them and some might open up when they see that they are not demonized a d cared for but it is not that simple , especially on a bigger scale, because it would involve a lot of one on one work and a combo of therapies as every person is different.

Did you inquire how much selfishness and "evil" in every one of us is? Most people don't want to accept or even face it. 

I don't say it's impossible but that Leo is right with the issue of resources. One of the outmost damaged persons might need 1000x more help to open up than a not so much damaged person. even for a still deep damaged person who is still quite traumatized would need so much work from both sides and that's still a life's work. Many people don't want to do that, nor they can. They are lost in victim mind.  

I grew up in a red inviroment and I know that many of them neither know that there is something wrong with them nor what healing is. They think that's just how the world is and every thing else, including psychology are only airy fairy tales. When one comes along who is compassionate in the wrong way, they start exploiting and damaging them. But it depends on the damage of the person. 

Yes, one can facilitate and provide good conditions for help but that is very limited and still a gamble if the other person is open to it.  It's basically like spirituality. Many teachers try to make it as tasty as possible but most people turn away as soon as they get a taste of shit starting coming up. 

Additionally, I think that psychological help is in very bad cases never close to enough because people don't learn how their mind works and how much they can do by mindfully changing stuff. But it's still dependent on the openess and willingness of the person. 

 

Don't forget that how much resources are needed to help is only true relative to the tools that we have right now. If we were to create more effective tools then using those tools would require less resources to help those same individuals. Therefore increasing effectiveness is also critical. For example think of how much resources were needed to send information from one point to another 200 years ago. Now you can send an email for free.

[tatsumaru]

1 hour ago, Tangerinedream said:

 

This seems quite interesting. Although I am not sure that all pedophiles have gone through child abuse themselves. Maybe it's possible to lose your innocence for other reasons as well and therefore you are looking for it outside again.

[Tangerinedream]

17 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

This seems quite interesting. Although I am not sure that all pedophiles have gone through child abuse themselves. Maybe it's possible to lose your innocence for other reasons as well and therefore you are looking for it outside again.

I was also thinking about this. 
for example In older times or even today in some countries, boys would be forced to go to war when they are still children.  Or they would have to take on an adult role at a young age like providing for the family. So they can also loose their innocence in this way.  So this would also make sense as to why in those times paedophilloa was more normalised, and it wouldn’t be uncommon for men to marry children.  If a boy represses his childhood innocence he will try and get it back in unconscious ways later in life.. and  because males tend to find intimacy through sex, it makes sense that they would be likely to try and get back that innocence through sexual acts.

[Seeker531]

@Windappreciator

My knowledge in this area is derived from direct experience and observation. I don't claim it is complete. 

Can you elaborate your point a bit more? 

If that would work, wouldn't that imply that a therapist has first to become a spiritual evolved person to have that  high over average vibes? 

[Seeker531]

@tatsumaru 

1 hour ago, tatsumaru said:

Don't forget that how much resources are needed to help is only true relative to the tools that we have right now. If we were to create more effective tools then using those tools would require less resources to help those same individuals. Therefore increasing effectiveness is also critical. For example think of how much resources were needed to send information from one point to another 200 years ago. Now you can send an email for free.

That's true. The effectiveness psychology is getting better and better and there is so much room left. There are many techniques already available and just need to become mainstream in the next 50 years. the awareness of healing increases too. 

4 hours ago, tatsumaru said:

they need to become open to being helped in order to be helped your job is to figure out what makes a person open to help and facilitate this first before the actual help. Just think of cause in effect not of possible/impossible. If something needs to happen before the actual therapy then think about how you cause that prerequisite to happen. If something needs to happen before that even the think about that thing etc. The main limitation is your imagination here.

Yeah, thank you. I wasn't aware of this part. 

you're right in the sense that everything is interdependent and the line between one and other is also blurry so that it's more an interplay of cause and effect. 

But that still means that the person helping the other one needs to be very evolved and nuanced and that again means people have to get up the spiral and becoming more loving. On the other hand, as I already pointed out, many people in stage red have not the awareness for that and have a very different worldview and not the understanding of their situation to get helped. 

[tatsumaru]

47 minutes ago, Seeker531 said:

@tatsumaru But that still means that the person helping the other one needs to be very evolved and nuanced and that again means people have to get up the spiral and becoming more loving. On the other hand, as I already pointed out, many people in stage red have not the awareness for that and have a very different worldview and not the understanding of their situation to get helped. 

You are exactly right. And since you are already aware of this, this makes you a prime candidate for becoming a bringer of light. People who understand what you said are few so the world literally relies on those few to bring the light and evolve society. If you decide to embrace this journey this can be both a burden and a blessing.

[DreamScape]

8 hours ago, Shin said:

In an ideal world where humanity would be much more evolved, that would be the case, there wouldn't need prisons and policemen,

@Shin That's where I'm talking from, not the current state of humanity.

[bejapuskas]

I was watching this podcast with Mark Laita from Soft White Underbelly who interviews all these outcasts of society and so called lost people. He even helps them financially because he is rich as fuck (does photography for big companies), gives them emotional support, shares their story, but he said that he is not expecting them to get better, because that's probably wanting too much in most cases. The reason why his channel is called Soft White Underbelly is, because it symbolizes a kind of vulnerable place of animals, and most of the people whom he interviews had seriously bad childhood. So like his videos are supposed to prevent that from happening and alarm the next generations in order for them not to get to that place in the first place. (being a killer, heroin addict, rapist etc.) I know some people who got back up after being addicted to hard drugs but those are serious people who did insane inner work. Not for everyone. Prevention is the best way. 

Good life purpose idea btw...

3 hours ago, tatsumaru said:

This seems quite interesting. Although I am not sure that all pedophiles have gone through child abuse themselves. Maybe it's possible to lose your innocence for other reasons as well and therefore you are looking for it outside again.

Yeh no, I don't think all pedophiles were sexually abused as kids. Most child sexual abuse cases are done by other children who usually do not know that rape is wrong literally. Like the most common age of a child rapist is like 12 years old, not even kidding. That's not to say that the older people cannot be more smart and sneaky, but the kind of pedopsychopath is extremely rare. 

If anyone is struggling with being a victim of rape or with some intrusive thoughts related to the topic of pedophilia, rape, murder... This forum, the serious emotional problems section, is open to these people, you will not get banned. There are also many places you can go on the internet to seek professional support from people who are understanding and compassionate for these issues, even on youtube there are youtube channels. 

[tatsumaru]

10 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

I was watching this podcast with Mark Laita from Soft White Underbelly who interviews all these outcasts of society and so called lost people. He even helps them financially because he is rich as fuck (does photography for big companies), gives them emotional support, shares their story, but he said that he is not expecting them to get better, because that's probably wanting too much in most cases. The reason why his channel is called Soft White Underbelly is, because it symbolizes a kind of vulnerable place of animals, and most of the people whom he interviews had seriously bad childhood. So like his videos are supposed to prevent that from happening and alarm the next generations in order for them not to get to that place in the first place. (being a killer, heroin addict, rapist etc.) I know some people who got back up after being addicted to hard drugs but those are serious people who did insane inner work. Not for everyone. Prevention is the best way. 

Good life purpose idea btw...

That's truly massive, if this guy is completely honest and has no ulterior agenda then he's definitely reached the self-transcendence level on Maslow's pyramid and maybe even the stage turqoise on SD. I think he will be more effective by building infrastructures for these people though, it's not clear that these people know what to do with their money.

14 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

 Like the most common age of a child rapist is like 12 years old, not even kidding.

That's literally a child rapist, lol.

[mivafofa]

I find it funny, almost exhasperating, yet unsurprising that the people who speak highly about rehabilitating psychos, never actually encountered one. 

6 hours ago, tatsumaru said:

The main limitation is your imagination here.

The main limitation here is your lack of experience. @Windappreciator @tatsumaru  To find a real functioning solution to a problem, you first must truly understand 200% the danger it involves and the complexity the task implies. Do you realize your jolly theories hold absolutely no value when you have no experience in the matter?  You guys are acting the same as bystanders telling how to coach a ballerina better. Who do you think will know better how to make a ballerina excel? A random good coach? Or an equally good coach with years of ballet experience? 

All you guys do is theorizing and not even consider the warnings of people who actually faced these situations and tried countless time to resonate with stage red, DID do the dirty work you didn't do. Come back with experienced insights. And you guys still think your fairy tale theories could work nonetheless. That's being idealistic with a lack of pragmatism. 

You know what, let me throw one for fun too: "We could prevent injuries in wars by making the soldiers immortal" There. your only limitation is your imagination 

5 hours ago, Windappreciator said:

You go onto their frequency and from that slowly raise regularly over time more and more.

You say that but you can't even access to their frequency. If you did, you would've understood better what it implies. Try embodying stage red for a day. Be egocentric, predatory, ruthless, exploitative, power hungry, out for blood, dangerously corrupted. Can't do? Well what do you think you can accomplish now you can't even do step 1