how to heal pedophiles/killers/rapist/violent people

[sholomar]

I just look at it as karmic lessons they need to learn. If they end up in prison it's probably for a reason. I take the reincarnation approach to looking at a lot of these things though, one reason I'm not so hell bent on trying to save everyone from everything. Hardship exists for a reason. Hardship is a learning tool. I've heard it said that communist governments are so bad because they prevent spiritual growth, because they take away incentive for people to make mistakes and learn from them, by having their hand held from cradle to grave by a government that over-regulates their lives. My goal in this life is to undo as much karma (past life or otherwise) as possible via forgiveness and radical acceptance, summarized neatly on such sites as "cfenlightenment.org"

As for pedophiles I firmly believe it's wired into some men's DNA (and women's) to be attracted to minors right down to the age of puberty. If you ever research the subject you'll know that 12 year old girls are perfectly capable of bringing a child to term, and we used to marry at age 15-16 in the US back in the 1800's, and for most of our evolution, right around puberty. It's only cultural mores that make it unacceptable now. All the past empires... Romans, Egyptions, Aztecs, Vikings, etc... it was 25 year old men marrying 12-15 year old girls. Sometimes the men were much older.  Boys were taken off to learn combat at age 7-8. I believe in the rule "When in Rome" so I think it's a mistake to exercise these urges, nonetheless I'm lead to believe by the study of evolution and past cultures that these attractions exist in many individuals. Also just talking to women... the stories of the crushes they had when they were really young...

That said it's best to not partake in any activity that will add more negative karma that will have to be undone in future lives... and is it worth prison time for sexual urges? Certainly not.

Edited June 9, 2021 by sholomar

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, charlie cho said:

We have to be the one initiating the goal of reforming everyone: no one gets left behind; or else, we have no hope of creating an enlightened world.

It's a nice idea, but our society is simply not at a stage of development where that is feasible.

The problem is resource costs. The resource costs for reforming totally hopeless people is incredibly high. And this includes emotional labor too. Imagine being the poor therapist who has to spend decades of your life trying to reform people who are simply psychopaths and may one day stab you in the eye with a pen. This is not a good use of the therapist's time. She could use that time to help others who are willing to change. So ironically, by trying to redeem the irredeemable you will cause more suffering in the world, not less. At least in today's world.

Maybe some day such people can be reformed, but it's not worth it today. We have bigger priorities for those resources.

You have to be very careful about compassion directed in utopian way. Utopian compassion increases suffering. Which was the whole problem of Soviet Communist ideology. The ideology was compassionate and equality-oriented on paper, but it created much suffering and inequality in practice.

Although of course the prison system needs much reform and modernization. No dispute there.

[Thought Art]

You need to look at it on a case by case basis. Really, I think we want prevention by ensuring a great education system that teaches about mental health, consent, relationships, life mastery etc. 

Maybe it would be better to put people to death in some cases, and in some cases the people can be reformed they can help others to reform. 

I know of ex gang members, drugs addicts, con artists etc who get reformed and then help stop crimes and reform others. 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Thought Art

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

I think we want prevention

Prevention is KEY, yes!

It costs so much energy to heal deeply dysfunctional people. Cheaper not to break them.

[Thought Art]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It costs so much energy to heal deeply dysfunctional people. Cheaper not to break them.

This is true! 

Humans live a long as time. We change slowly. The more this dawns on me the more it makes me realize just how lucky I am and how profound balance and clear thinking is in life.

I feel sad for the man or women who abuses others, or those who throw their lives away. I want everyone to have the chance to experience healthy relationships and self love. I think everyone deserves this, but it appears some of us simply cannot do that anymore and transcending this life may be the best thing. This reality is so absolute and it seems harsh. Harsh for us all here in eternity ahah. Do you think that God really wanted to do those harmful things? That is was the spiritual agreement? Or, is that just something that happens given our freedom as humans? Both maybe.

 

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Thought Art

[trenton]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

What is the point of sending them to prison if that only makes their trauma worse?  It looks like prison should be skipped and these people should be held on this island for ten years instead of going here after prison.

[Tanz]

I don't feel safe letting a child molester out of prison as much as letting a serial killer out of prison.  It's better to keep them locked up on an island like in the vice video piece and give them as many drugs as they want.  

The possible damage they can do to a child and their families is too great.  To make them useful creating jobs for them to contribute to society economically can offset some of the cost it will take to feed them and give them proper medical care.  

[tatsumaru]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Absolute Inclusiveness includes everything, it does not exclude killing criminals who refuse to cooperate.

Notice that your mind is actually being exclusive here and not coming from the highest Love: which would accept everything without exception.

I generally agree. But we are not at all in an awakened society. Nor will we be in our lifetime.

Doesn't sound like this was completely thought through. If solution is absolute inclusiveness then the easiest solution is to not do anything about it as a form of including their behavior. You seem like you are split between compassion and nihilism. You can't seek to eliminate suffering and include it too. You have to make your own mind if you are going to trust your feelings or keep digging with your knife in your foot and saying 'ah it's all oneness'.

We only lock them up because we don't know what the cause is and how to help them. Killing them is a tragedy of ignorance not inclusiveness. Did the Buddha lock or kill Angulimala the serial killer? (No, I am not claiming I was there to see what happened, I am simply using this as a metaphor that could inspire some original thought.)

Yes, in our ignorant state the best we can do is to try and minimize the suffering they cause, but that has nothing to do with truth. It's simply a desperate utilitarian/mathematical approach to handling people. What if you just killed the killer who was going to transcend their ignorance and become the next Buddha? A lot of good you did to society...

[blackchair]

[DreamScape]

Start now! Bring more love to the table. The world is in desperate need of healing, love and enlightened selfless people. 

[Windappreciator]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's a nice idea, but our society is simply not at a stage of development where that is feasible.

The problem is resource costs. The resource costs for reforming totally hopeless people is incredibly high. And this includes emotional labor too. Imagine being the poor therapist who has to spend decades of your life trying to reform people who are simply psychopaths and may one day stab you in the eye with a pen. This is not a good use of the therapist's time. She could use that time to help others who are willing to change. So ironically, by trying to redeem the irredeemable you will cause more suffering in the world, not less. At least in today's world.

Maybe some day such people can be reformed, but it's not worth it today. We have bigger priorities for those resources.

You have to be very careful about compassion directed in utopian way. Utopian compassion increases suffering. Which was the whole problem of Soviet Communist ideology. The ideology was compassionate and equality-oriented on paper, but it created much suffering and inequality in practice.

Although of course the prison system needs much reform and modernization. No dispute there.

I think you already know that this is not simply done in a structural way, especially considering something like psychopathy.

One needs to be able to love others strong enough to dive into their minds and soul and transform from within. 

As far as you are not on this level all you can do is mitigate and prevent and defend and wait.

Unless you lock the psychopaths up for 30 days on 5 MeO.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Windappreciator

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Windappreciator said:

One needs to be able to love others strong enough to dive into their minds and soul and transform from within. 

Sure! How about you show us how it's done? Go work in a prison for 30 years loving psychopaths. Let's see how you feel after one of them bites your ears off.

Being conscious and loving does not mean I will be foolish enough to waste my finite human love on impossible people. Boundaries. Even after enlightenment.

[seriousman24]

More likely to "heal" them by avoiding the trap of forcing transformation on someone out of their natural predatory self; most of these things occur because it has alignment with reality so it's better to have an outlet for rape destruction and evil through virtual reality/roleplay or use drug therapies because rape/destruction/evil/torture is good when both the perpetrator and the victim are benefited/feel pleasure from the acts which isn't the case in our immediate reality; loving someone with the exclusive intent to transform their behaviors is not full love or rather in a way it lacks the constructive hate of the love/hate duality this constructive hate means that you should feel "hate" for the universe and it's fundamental mechanics themselves because then at least the observer, the perpetrator and the victim are in some level of agreement; people are too obsessed with sentience/social ego they forget the entire universe and it's mechanics are involved.

One example, the observer can have his guru power trip/victim mentality healing fantasy fulfilled through whatever means(including me as a 4th observer); the perpetrator can have his rape and get away with it with zero karma(just one example in the space of possibilities) and the victim can have pleasure or fulfillment from being acted on again with zero karma or even positive karma; you can then maintain the complexity of the play and all the general regular actions of a universe where suffering exists but with no suffering like "revenge" and "recovering from trauma" by the victim; the "healing" from the observer through preventive measures and therapeutic assistance; "trying to get away with your assault" from the perpetrator or/and "getting reformed through therapy".

Just a super metaphysical gamified version of reality where you can maintain everything but also change anything and it still makes perfect sense and the spookiest thing is even though I personally experience suffering I cannot say this gamified reality is not already the case; extremely clumsily explained and simplified here but you guys are pretty smart. My view of true love where hate/evil can exist without suffering being involved and also allowing evolution as if hate still hurts just as much.   

[SamC]

I don't think we are supposed to " heal " them. They are not ready and maybe need 10 more lifetimes before they even can be helped or healed.

" Letting" them do their thing and come to their own conclusions is in my point of view the only way forward. We can't stop them from doing unconcious hurtful stuff and there probably is a reason for that. I mean we ourselves are here to learn by our ego and suffering - they can't be the exception. This of course doesn't mean that we shouldn't try stop/ prevent them and lock them up/ try our best to help them ( In a way that is reasonable)... 

It only means that we need to focus on what we can control and what will help - and I don't think healing pedophiles and rapists is one of those things we can solve.

 

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by SamC

[Windappreciator]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Sure! How about you show us how it's done? Go work in a prison for 30 years loving psychopaths. Let's see how you feel after one of them bites your ears off.

Being conscious and loving does not mean I will be foolish enough to waste my finite human love on impossible people. Boundaries. Even after enlightenment.

Uff, what a blocking sting.

I don't see any contradiction with what I said and setting physical boundaries.

I am not sure you understand what I am saying, this could be the result of your low love radiation. And frankly I don't think you want to go there, you're too much up in your mind.

I can tell you where you guys on this forum can start and that is with actually loving animals and deconstructing social/image fears slowly.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Windappreciator

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Windappreciator said:

I don't see any contradiction with what I said and setting physical boundaries.

I don't just mean physical boundaries. I mean wasting your love and emotional labor on incorrigible people.

You have no idea how emotionally exhausted and drained you will be after trying to reform violent psychopaths for a few weeks. Your hippie love will quickly dry up and you will get jaded, depressed, and sick.

All your hippie notions of love are finite and they will get quickly exhausted by a violent psychopath. It would be like pouring money into Iraq. No matter how many trillions you pour in there, democracy will not come. You will go bankrupt before you fix Iraq.

Quote

this could be the result of your low love radiation.

Lolz

I teach you these things so that you don't incur the suffering of idiot compassion.

That's my love for you: to point out how your ideas, if followed, would ruin you emotionally.

But hey, do whatever you want. Go love psychopaths if that's your cup of tea. If you manage to make it work, I will be impressed and stand corrected.

But ACTUALLY do it! See, I don't think you're really serious about doing it. You're just talking. Meanwhile the psychopaths are out there and someone's gotta stop them.

You could make it your life's work to heal psychopaths. But will you? Do you understand how serious of an undertaking that is? And if you don't feel like taking on that burden, now you understand the problem.

[Windappreciator]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't just mean physical boundaries. I mean wasting your love and emotional labor on incorrigible people.

You have no idea how emotionally exhausted and drained you will be after trying to reform violent psychopaths for a few weeks. Your hippie love will quickly dry up and you will get jaded, depressed, and sick.

All your hippie notions of love are finite and they will get quickly exhausted by a violent psychopath. It would be like pouring money into Iraq. No matter how many trillions you pour in there, democracy will not come. You will go bankrupt before you fix Iraq.

Lolz

I teach you these things so that you don't incur the suffering of idiot compassion.

That's my love for you: to point out how your ideas, if followed, would ruin you emotionally.

But hey, do whatever you want. Go love psychopaths if that's your cup of tea. If you manage to make it work, I will be impressed and stand corrected.

But ACTUALLY do it! See, I don't think you're really serious about doing it. You're just talking.

I am not interested in playing justify.

Try understanding what I am saying rather than deflecting what you spinned through misunderstanding via fears.

[UNZARI]

@Windappreciator bro if ur so woke go do it and make a YouTube channel about it. Give me a break

[mivafofa]

@Windappreciator Try understanding what is said to you too.  Dealing with psychopaths is no joke. It's not as naively simple as pumping them with 5 meo or pouring one-directional love to them. This is totally gonna work against you. 

On 09/06/2021 at 2:29 PM, Windappreciator said:

One needs to be able to love others strong enough to dive into their minds and soul and transform from within. 

As far as you are not on this level all you can do is mitigate and prevent and defend and wait.

This apply only to non-psychopaths. They don't work like the rest of us.  Of course you probably can't fathom this until you actually meet a psychopath, which I hope you won't for your own sanity and waste of love.

[charlie cho]

I have a good strategy to deal with those psychos. Anybody with extreme war skills like General Patton or Sun Tzu may handle them. Even with armies and a lot of power is permitted. Isolate the victims (the psychos) and hope to teach them while having them do no harm to the teacher that's reforming them. The only caveat here is the person in power has to have an enlightened outlook. It won't be weak psychologists and teachers that will be helping those psychos.

 I don't think it would take so much effort for the universe to borne out a person that can be so proficient in war and be totally enlightened at the same time. If he who posses those qualities, he can control the psycho and at the same time help him. It's takes just one person to love strategy and war and takes seriously his personal development. 

After all, a criminal is just a war crazed individual gone the wrong way. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by charlie cho