Infinite Subjective Qualia?

[RMQualtrough]

Without experience is no experiencer.

At the beginning of the universe there were no consciois minds to observe it. It would be a state of "cessation" like universal general anaesthesia. But still all of these existent things like light and matter were happening...

Evidently living material things have evolved to have a conscious experience of the environment creating an experience and experiencer.

People have issue with the fact that anaesthesia or destroying the brain causes cessation. But cessation/nothingness is the true nature of all reality. That is what we actually all are, it's the default and the Absolute.

Rather than these sense organs creating the qualia of color and such, is it just revealing or tapping into it? Are there infinite colors? Infinite sounds? Infinite qualia including things we cannot ever access? When a bat uses sonar what is sonar like from the inside? We can see what it is like from the outside with electrical currents in the brain, and determine how far in terms of physical distance it functions, but nothing of what it is like from inside the bat.

Is that just one example of infinite qualia that can exist whenever "experience" and hence then "experiencer" is created? Did humans used to see blue as some other color but it wasn't evolutionarily beneficial?

How do you suppose the brain is tapping into these things? Without a physical brain there is no separation or experience from this PoV, just cessation (nothingness, the default and true nature of reality). If all brains cease to exist and all experience ceases to exist, there is still a big bang etc?

Edited June 8, 2021 by RMQualtrough

[Adamq8]

This post is full of assumptions.

Firstly that the big bang happend and that no experience was present at that event.

Secondly that the brain creates conciousness. 

The big bang is a conceptual story as is the story of the brain creating conciousness but there is zero scientific evidence that the brain produces conciousness hence the hard problem of conciousness, but it is only a hard problem when looking through the lens of materialism.

It is just an speculation that there was something going on prior to conciousness. 

There is evidence that when the brain stop functioning there is richer more vast spectrums of experience available.

And there is still conciousness when your under surgery etc when they conducted science on it but it not a memory recall of the actual experience.

As well as deep sleep.

A lack of memory is not proof for lack of conciousness. 

Read up on Dr. Eben alexanders case when he was in a coma for 7 days with an brain barely functioning. 

And when people have the most alive and vibrant experiences the brain is reduced in activity.

Like LSD/DMT/mushrooms/Ndes etc.

 

 

[Mason Riggle]

38 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

At the beginning of the universe

There is no 'beginning of the universe'... the same way there is no 'center of the surface of a sphere'.  Reality is shaped like a strange loop. 

 

40 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

Without experience is no experiencer.

Experience is all there is.  The only evidence there is of an 'experiencer' is the 'experience of an experiencer'.  Sam Harris put's it this way (I know, I know, he's a materialist, blah blah blah)... "what you mistake to be the 'thinker of thoughts' is just more thought occurring now".   Similarly, what is mistaken as 'the experiencer of the experience' is just more experience. 

[RMQualtrough]

3 hours ago, Adamq8 said:

This post is full of assumptions.

Firstly that the big bang happend and that no experience was present at that event.

Secondly that the brain creates conciousness. 

The big bang is a conceptual story as is the story of the brain creating conciousness but there is zero scientific evidence that the brain produces conciousness hence the hard problem of conciousness, but it is only a hard problem when looking through the lens of materialism.

It is just an speculation that there was something going on prior to conciousness. 

There is evidence that when the brain stop functioning there is richer more vast spectrums of experience available.

And there is still conciousness when your under surgery etc when they conducted science on it but it not a memory recall of the actual experience.

As well as deep sleep.

A lack of memory is not proof for lack of conciousness. 

Read up on Dr. Eben alexanders case when he was in a coma for 7 days with an brain barely functioning. 

And when people have the most alive and vibrant experiences the brain is reduced in activity.

Like LSD/DMT/mushrooms/Ndes etc.

It can't be impossible to reconcile the two things.

The relative experience of anaesthesia etc is cessation/nothingness. Cessation doesn't mean it stops existing. The states mentioned are still full of human things, not suddenly sonar vision like a bat and so on.

I think the Absolute is nothingness. Pure infinite consciousness is totally nondual, no experience exists here, nor time, nor anything. Nothingness = everythingness.

Go to the big bang. From say a void perspective there is no experience of anything. But this is happening.

When experience happens the "experiencer" appears. I think someone very recently said, when experience stops the experiencer ceases too, and pure consciousness is something deeper than that.

When there is experience then, is it just tapping into some of the infinite qualia already present? So possibly nothing in the entire universe rn can see an infinite myriad of colors which DO exist but can't currently be experienced... that we just see as a certain shade of blue or w.e.

In a dream, as soon as you see anything you are localized somewhere in the dream. It is impossible to experience a dream without duality being created. With legit full nonduality there is cessation/nothingness/the void.

What is the existence of things prior to subjective experience like. When consciousness is still 100% nondual. There is no way that these things are mutually exclusive.

Edited June 8, 2021 by RMQualtrough

[impulse9]

I've thought about this as a kid. It was, and still is, perfectly logical to me that without an observer the universe can't exist, because who would verify its existence? Saying "the universe doesn't exist" and "the universe exists, but there's no observers" are actually semantically the same exact sentence, it's just that our syntax is playing games on us. Obviously a universe without an observer is the same as a non-existing universe.?

Basically, there is no good way to internalize this logically. The universe didn't start, nor will it end, because the universe has no use for such concepts as beginnings and ends. It exists now, and this now is eternal, and there's no beginnings, no ends, and no past and no future, those are pure fiction that we were programmed with over the course of our lives.

[RMQualtrough]

29 minutes ago, impulse9 said:

I've thought about this as a kid. It was, and still is, perfectly logical to me that without an observer the universe can't exist, because who would verify its existence? Saying "the universe doesn't exist" and "the universe exists, but there's no observers" are actually semantically the same exact sentence, it's just that our syntax is playing games on us. Obviously a universe without an observer is the same as a non-existing universe.?

Basically, there is no good way to internalize this logically. The universe didn't start, nor will it end, because the universe has no use for such concepts as beginnings and ends. It exists now, and this now is eternal, and there's no beginnings, no ends, and no past and no future, those are pure fiction that we were programmed with over the course of our lives.

When someone achieves nirodha samapatti (cessation) I think that is a total melding of the subjective localized PoV into the All. From the body there is just a time skip without experience.

If all things were in cessation (absolute Oneness), why could infinity not exist within it anyway?

Can't there right now be infinite universes that nothing is localized inside of and thus not conscious of anyway? And even within our universe why not qualia that nothing is even conscious of?

Are subjective things just part of the infinity that can be tapped into by a localized point of consciousness?

Or is it in that "time skip" when we are the All that we experience literally everything in existence and total infinity. But from the body there is recorded no memory etc of it because we are not localized anymore...

Edited June 8, 2021 by RMQualtrough

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

But still all of these existent things like light and matter were happening

Or so you just dreamed up

The past is imagined NOW.

[RMQualtrough]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Or so you just dreamed up

God dreamed up right?

I'm very curious about how the apparent truths of the material world go together with the Absolute.

A lot of nondual teachers etc say the brain correlates experience rather than causes. I can see that the actual subjective nature of the thing itself could exist independently (e.g. the taste of chocolate), but the physical brain appears to change the content of consciousness to the localized form that has the experience of it.

Consciousness never goes anywhere, but the content like sights and sounds can change from that small localized scale by altering physical matter.

Total destruction of the brain leads to complete cessation which is total Oneness with the Absolute? Not localized anymore whatsoever. Literal Everythingness. Like your video about immortality when you discussed where dead people are.

If we wind back to say, the big bang, or even other "universes" which for example contain just a bunch of floating chairs, is there no experiencer of those places?

When an atom is made, it is made of God and within God. Is there any experience of being an atom? Or is the atom also subjectively in the state of "cessation"? Can't things be made of consciousness and yet there not be any conscious experience of that thing?

The existence of both all experienced things as well as infinite "non-existent" (not found in any subjective realm) things... When experience happens in a "non-existent" universe, it essentially comes into being. But it already existed while not existing as part of infinity (infinite = all things which exist + all things which do not).

What is your take?

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

God dreamed up right?

YOU

2 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

but the physical brain appears to change the content of consciousness to the localized form that has the experience of it.

The brain IS consciousness. Consciousness changes itself. That's what consciousness ever does.

2 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

Total destruction of the brain leads to complete cessation which is total Oneness with the Absolute? Not localized anymore whatsoever. Literal Everythingness. Like your video about immortality when you discussed where dead people are.

It's more radical than that. With a deep enough awakening you will realize there never was a brain to destroy.

And then you are Everythingness, yes.

2 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

If we wind back to say, the big bang, or even other "universes" which for example contain just a bunch of floating chairs, is there no experiencer of those places?

The "experiencer" is God/YOU, AKA Nothingness.

2 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

When an atom is made, it is made of God and within God.

It is made within YOU right now as you imagine it, yes.

2 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

Is there any experience of being an atom? Or is the atom also subjectively in the state of "cessation"?

There is if you imagine it.

2 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

Can't things be made of consciousness and yet there not be any conscious experience of that thing?

A thing can only exist within consciousness.

2 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

The existence of both all experienced things as well as infinite "non-existent" (not found in any subjective realm) things... When experience happens in a "non-existent" universe, it essentially comes into being. But it already existed while not existing as part of infinity (infinite = all things which exist + all things which do not).

What is your take?

There is no such thing as non-existence. Only Existence. Existence is Absolute. It is already Nothing.

[justfortoday]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

YOU

The brain IS consciousness. Consciousness changes itself. That's what consciousness ever does.

It's more radical than that. With a deep enough awakening you will realize there never was a brain to destroy.

And then you are Everythingness, yes.

The "experiencer" is God/YOU, AKA Nothingness.

It is made within YOU right now as you imagine it, yes.

There is if you imagine it.

A thing can only exist within consciousness.

There is no such thing as non-existence. Only Existence. Existence is Absolute. It is already Nothing.

To add to what Leo is pointing at...

In the relative I just came back from a dinner with some friends. We had drinks and talked. I just got home.

I am fully conscious that I am imagining that RIGHT NOW. I never went to dinner. I am imagining that.

Backwards causality.

[VirusOfTheCult]

On 6/8/2021 at 2:38 PM, RMQualtrough said:

Are there infinite colors? Infinite sounds? Infinite qualia

No. No and no.

Colors are finite and the potential colors are unknown. Sounds are finite...same with irs potential. And qualia is philososophy not a set of numbers.

Whoever tells you otherwise is lying.

On 6/8/2021 at 2:38 PM, RMQualtrough said:

 

including things we cannot ever access? When a bat uses sonar what is sonar like from the inside? We can see what it is like from the outside with electrical currents in the brain, and determine how far in terms of physical distance it functions, but nothing of what it is like from inside the bat.

Is that just one example of infinite qualia that can exist whenever "experience" and hence then "experiencer" is created? Did humans used to see blue as some other color but it wasn't evolutionarily beneficial?

How do you suppose the brain is tapping into these things? Without a physical brain there is no separation or experience from this PoV, just cessation (nothingness, the default and true nature of reality). If all brains cease to exist and all experience ceases to exist, there is still a big bang etc?

Whatever.