A wonderful word: Reification

[tatsumaru]

Just discovered this lovely term that points towards direct experience which I never knew existed before. It's called reification and it refers to the fallacy of mistaking the abstraction for the real thing or as they say mistaking the map for the territory. It's possible that you already know it, but it's new to me and I am currently feeling waves of appreciation for the existence of this word.

What I've noticed for myself is that system thinkers are particularly vulnerable to thinking they've transcended this issue when in effect they have become even more ensnared by it. This is so because with systems thinking the "map" starts to appear more dynamic and alive and it's easy to fool ourselves into believing that this simulation we are running in our thinking minds is actually the territory, however it's no more alive than a marionette being controlled by its puppet master. 99% true is 100% false.

Edited June 7, 2021 by tatsumaru

[Leo Gura]

The physical world is a reification.

Surprise!

[RendHeaven]

6 hours ago, tatsumaru said:

99% true is 100% false.

I see what you're saying, and yet still from higher perspectives, All is True and none is false.

That really fucks with me

[The0Self]

? 

Consider:

The unknown is unknowable — for as soon as it were known, it would no longer be unknown. Similarly, the known MUST be known in the illusory experience of separation — for as soon as it were unknown (which is always already the case), there’d be no one experiencing/knowing.

Simply, that MUST = reification.

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, The0Self said:

The unknown is unknowable

If this were true you wouldn't know what's a dick for.

[VeganAwake]

The only logical thing that can be said about THIS is that it's unknowable.

Everything else is a fairy tale ❤

 

[The0Self]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

If this were true you wouldn't know what's a dick for.

Lol. Not what I meant though. It was a subtle point that is pointless in itself (merely lead to the next point in that comment). The unknown, if known, is no longer the unknown, but the unknown of course stays the unknown. It’s simply unknown by virtue of being unknown — a tautology. That’s what I meant by the unknown is always unknown / cannot be known.

In the same way that the unknown tautologically cannot be known: Once something is known, what is known needs to be known — that need is reification. And that, while tautological as well, is very often not recognized as such, which is why I drew the comparison.

The unknown is unknown by virtue of being unknown (obvious and pointless tautology when read out of context), whereas the known needs to be known by virtue of being known (less obvious).

Edited June 8, 2021 by The0Self

[Zigzag Idiot]

Below is the third excerpt out of 12 about reification.

Not to be confused with Californication. Just joking,,,, link at the bottom.

Mind's Tendency to Reify

As we look closer at these subtle ego activities, we discover the tendency to reify reification itself and make it a kind of object to reject. In our minds, we make it something from which we can push away and separate ourselves.
The same process can happen as we reify doing, making it something to reject or judge. Even more subtle than that—we can reify nondoing, such that nondoing becomes an object, a thing we can value or cultivate. The truth is that nondoing is really nothing. No such thing exists that is called nondoing. Nondoing is the nonexistence of doing, but we make it something to aspire to, which can become a subtle obstacle. Something similar can happen to those who work exclusively with a nondual perspective about reality: at some point, they begin to reify nonduality, and it becomes for them an objective to aspire to and reach. So, as you see, the tendency of the mind to reify in order to create stability, a fixed center, or a particular orientation is unlimited. The mind, then, is a mixed blessing, a double-edged sword. And that is the condition of humanity: Our intelligence, our mind, can liberate us but it can also ensnare us. Our learning, our maturation, and even our realization and enlightenment, require the capacity for discernment, for clear discrimination, of what is true and what is not true. 

The Unfolding Now, pg. 188

Taken from: https://www.diamondapproach.org/glossary/refinery_phrases/reification

[Leo Gura]

Another word for reification: dreaming

[The0Self]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Another word for reification: dreaming

?

exactly though

Edited June 8, 2021 by The0Self

[tatsumaru]

4 hours ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

Below is the third excerpt out of 12 about reification.

Not to be confused with Californication. Just joking,,,, link at the bottom.

Mind's Tendency to Reify

As we look closer at these subtle ego activities, we discover the tendency to reify reification itself and make it a kind of object to reject. In our minds, we make it something from which we can push away and separate ourselves.
The same process can happen as we reify doing, making it something to reject or judge. Even more subtle than that—we can reify nondoing, such that nondoing becomes an object, a thing we can value or cultivate. The truth is that nondoing is really nothing. No such thing exists that is called nondoing. Nondoing is the nonexistence of doing, but we make it something to aspire to, which can become a subtle obstacle. Something similar can happen to those who work exclusively with a nondual perspective about reality: at some point, they begin to reify nonduality, and it becomes for them an objective to aspire to and reach. So, as you see, the tendency of the mind to reify in order to create stability, a fixed center, or a particular orientation is unlimited. The mind, then, is a mixed blessing, a double-edged sword. And that is the condition of humanity: Our intelligence, our mind, can liberate us but it can also ensnare us. Our learning, our maturation, and even our realization and enlightenment, require the capacity for discernment, for clear discrimination, of what is true and what is not true. 

The Unfolding Now, pg. 188

Taken from: https://www.diamondapproach.org/glossary/refinery_phrases/reification

This is similar to what I was debating with Mu_ here: