Complaining - a mechanical unconscious behavior

[Nos7algiK]

2 hours ago, LastThursday said:

 Sometimes getting riled and authentically complaining about an injustice can be beneficial. Maybe. Dunno.

I believe this is where it becomes a slippery slope. Many times over speaking out about injustice just causes another form of injustice. Though, I do agree there are points in life where we should speak out against what is happing to us or others. But, at the same time this reasoning can be easily warped to suit one's own biased narrative. "The road to hell is paved in good intentions."

[LastThursday]

13 minutes ago, Nos7algiK said:

Though, I do agree there are points in life where we should speak out against what is happing to us or others. But, at the same time this reasoning can be easily warped to suit one's own biased narrative.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, it's all manipulation. It just depends on whether the manipulation is beneficial or not. Generally, being outraged and complaining about an injustice is about reducing suffering for the complainant in the long term. But you have to be strategic and take a systems view of these things. Is your reduction in suffering more than the increase in suffering for the persons carrying out the supposed injustice? I'm guessing that it's not always obvious.

[Zigzag Idiot]

Thank you for putting yourself out there and expressing yourselves @Nos7algiK @LastThursday @Preety_India @Applegarden8 @Loving Radiance 

 

6 hours ago, LastThursday said:

would agree that all these are undesirable behaviours on the whole. But isn't there a space for them to be used strategically or in moderation? Sometimes getting riled and authentically complaining about an injustice can be beneficial. Maybe. Dunno.

I agree in general and this may seem like splitting hairs but I see a clear distinction when complaining is also giving voice to a negative emotion regardless of how reasonable or even noble it might seem. When I give voice to that part of me that has a trace of violence in it, I can tell. Sometimes immediately or as it’s often been in the past, when I cool down and am reflecting. 
Maurice Nicoll said that all negative emotion all leads to violence. That may need to be framed by statements that at the present, are not with me.
Another statement he made which stands better on its own and is somewhat related is the claim that a fully awakened person is actually incapable of violence.

Yes, incapable,,,,, It deserves pondering I think. I have pondered it a lot and at times have felt like I’ve truly seen the truth in it.
 
Arnold Keyserling said if a person can go 2 years (a Martian year) and not express any negative emotion at all then that person for the remainder of their life will never experience anything in a negative way again!

[LastThursday]

5 hours ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

complaining is also giving voice to a negative emotion regardless of how reasonable or even noble it might seem.

I suppose in a rational light some emotions are negative and some positive and some neutral. Although even seemingly negative emotions can have a positive intent behind them. I would say that a negative emotion is just a signal that something is out of balance, so complaining is a way to redress that balance. It seems to me that you'd have to be superhuman not to be able to feel any negativity, but expressing is different. Emotional mastery comes into it, and knowing when and when not to express an emotion. And as soon as an emotion is expressed, then it's completely open to interpretation, it may be seen in a negative or positive light depending on the people involved. Just my two pennies' worth.

Edited June 8, 2021 by LastThursday

[Preety_India]

4 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

. I would say that a negative emotion is just a signal that something is out of balance

Exactly. This is how I always thought. Like body's pain reaction mechanism. 

For example, if your heart rate goes up or you naturally start sweating it might be your body's way of telling you that something dangerous is lurking in your surroundings and to put you on high alert. So if you meet a stranger on the street who is acting weird and if the hair on the back of your neck stands up, then you need to thank your body for all the negative emotions and responses created because they are for your own good. 

 

[Zigzag Idiot]

8 hours ago, LastThursday said:

. It seems to me that you'd have to be superhuman not to be able to feel any negativity, but expressing is different. 

As Fonzi would say, Correctimundo. 
We should always fully and completely feel whatever it is we feel and not repress and very importantly, as you have written,“expressing is different.”  This is where we have a choice.

 

8 hours ago, LastThursday said:

Emotional mastery comes into it, and knowing when and when not to express an emotion. And as soon as an emotion is expressed, then it's completely open to interpretation, it may be seen in a negative or positive light depending on the people involved.

This is where understanding or projection occurs. If we understand something completely it can’t make us have a negative reaction. For instance if you see that someone is caught up in being passive aggressive towards you, it has no effect. You see through understanding that they are deeply unhappy in some way and are projecting the responsibility for this onto you. You see that they are completely asleep in the spiritual sense and although it may be unfair, you simply don’t take it personal. 
Clearing this hurtle in acquiring understanding takes quite a long time. IMO. I’m not claiming either that my work is complete here either.

Precaution here. It’s going to get hot. For good reason though. Not just for the sake of being provocative or grandstanding. Please bear with me and try not to take it personal.
I want to finish my response here with a series of quotes from Maurice Nicoll. To summarize in short what he says here is - You’re all a bunch of liars and don’t realize it because you lie to yourself backed up with the lies of self justification and along with it not taking responsibility for your inner world. I include myself here as well. If reading this makes you angry then it just proves the accuracy of what is said because taking something in a negative way is a sign that understanding is incomplete. Also, IMO, it is behind the meaning of why Christ said “forgive them for they know not what they do”.

OBEDIENCE III

“The Work begins in a man or a woman who is beginning to understand that he or she cannot with impunity think or feel mechanically. Higher Centres are near or far according to the inner state of yourself. If your inner state of yourself is one of envy, malice, hatred, bitterness, judgment, your psychological body—that is, your inner state—is wet, a sodden mess, and will never conduct the higher vibrations of intel- ligence and meaning that come from Higher Centres. That is why the Work starts with self-observation, observation of what’s going on, observation of what your state is...You must observe how you take in the impressions of life, and transform them through your understanding of the Work. Then you begin to hear Higher Centres.”

V. 4, pp. 1233-1323

AIM OVER TIME

“If you make an aim in the Work—as, for instance, not to feel always this background of tears, discontent, of not being appreciated. . . it will be given to you not to have it—usually in short flashes. But only if you really want this aim and have realized what it might mean not to have it will it eventually be given you fully. You are tested first. People love their negative emotions. Remove these by magic—then do you think they will praise you? No—they will hate you. This is our curious situation.” V. 3, p. 1097

 

ASSIMILATING PARTS OF THE UNCONSCIOUS

“Let us take an example, step by step. Someone speaks and behaves in a way I resent violently...First step: I observe I am violent and bitter. This is quite different from just being violent and bitter...Second step: I recall that no matter who is to blame I am to blame for being negative...Third step: I must ask what is it connected with in the custom- ary feeling of myself, that is behind the outburst...I decide that it seems to be a criticism of my efficiency. Have I then a picture of my being efficient and is this a component part of my customary feeling of myself? I did not quite realize it. As time goes on I become more and more conscious that it is so...My task is then clear. I must notice where I am not at all efficient and slowly include this in my feeling of myself.” V. 5, pp. 1529-30

 

SELF-JUSTIFYING

“You know that one of the specific efforts we are taught to make in our personal work is the effort against self-justifying. Self-justifying is a complicated and very interesting process of inner and outer lying whereby we put ourselves in the right...If you are always going to be right, you will never be in the wrong, and if you are never in the wrong, you will never change. To feel one is always right is to block the way to any self-change...Remember, the more you find yourself self-justifying the more certain you may be that you are lying.” V. 1, p. 142, V. 2, p. 558

SELF-JUSTIFYING II

“Suppose a person is suddenly asked why he is so negative? Probably either he will indignantly deny that he is negative or say that he has good reason to be. In both cases, he justifies himself—that is, he justifies his negative emotions. . .The root of the matter lies in this picture of always being right and so never being actually in the wrong. Here a very powerful force is at work to keep us asleep in illusions about ourselves.” V. 3, p. 999

SELF-JUSTIFYING III

“If you justify everything in yourself, all you think and feel and do, of course you will never see that you are a machine. Have you realized this? Seeing that one is a machine therefore demands non-justifying.” V. 3, p. 1012

SELF-JUSTIFYING IV

“When we know a thing is true about ourselves, and acknowledge it internal- ly, accusation can never make us indignant...Self-justifying cannot work in the presence of acknowledged truth.” V. 1, p. 144

THE BASIS OF SELF-JUSTIFICATION

“Justifying yourself is always from your own idea of justice...Everyone has a sense of what is justice for them and finding that life does not correspond to it they cling to this sense of what they think should

be justice for them. Consequently we justify our negative states, our internal considering, and our account-making.” V. 3, p. 851

LYING TO ONESELF

“If you observe wrong inner talking you will notice it is only half- truths, or truths connected in the wrong order, or with something added or left out. In other words, it is simply lying to oneself. If you say: ‘Is this quite true?’ it may stop it, but it will find another set of lies. Eventually you must dislike it.” V. 1, p. 

LYING TO ONESELF II

“The first form of lying we have to study in ourselves, the Work says, is that in which we always tend to tell about something that happened to ourselves to our own advantage. When you have to report what you said and what the other person said in some Work conversation you will find that it is practically impossible to put the matter rightly. You will tend to put the whole report to your own advantage, by leaving out some things you said and slightly over-emphasizing other things you said.” V. 2, p. 609

LYING TO ONESELF III

“Begin with one thing and observe it in yourself. Begin, say, with observing that you pretend you know. This is one of the worst forms of lying. Many people pretend they know what they do not know and keep up the picture all their lives. You must, in the Work, try to see that you follow, and are a slave to, life-long ideas. Only then can you begin to understand what inner sincerity means.” V. 3, p. 1160

LYING TO ONESELF IV

“What is the whole object of this being truthful in the Work? It is not based on moral grounds. It is based on the possible development of something called Essence that can never grow through pretense or falsity. All those ‘I’s that lie habitually, all those ‘I’s that protect the central kingdom of the False Personality and justify everything, twist everything, turn everything to their own advantage, prevent this inner development of Essence from taking place. For this reason, the Work teaches, it is so important to tell the truth to your teacher, because by this exercise you learn how to tell the truth to yourself.” V. 2, p. 609

LYING TO ONESELF V

“A person can lie with a single gesture, a single look, a single intona- tion, a casual mannerism, a sigh, a heartbroken expression, an illness, by a hearty manner, by being always fit and well. We all know how marvelously we have behaved and we all know what intolerable conditions we have been subjected to. The Work says we all lead an imaginary life with ourselves. Now this romance may take a great deal of strength from us and in all cases it prevents us from any real self-observation. It has to be torn out of the heart.” V. 2, p. 610

LYING TO ONESELF VI

“Have you ever come to the point of really seeing that your suffering is all lies, and experienced that extraordinary inner calm that results through seeing the truth about yourself? Because just as all lies make us restless, so does truth make us calm and at peace with ourselves.” V. 2, p. 616

ANOTHER SIMPLE STATEMENT

“All negative states make you lie.” V. 2, p. 720

AWAKENING

“All this ascription to ourselves of powers that we do not possess is the real lying that the Work is ultimately concerned with. And this unconscious lying is what through self-observation we have to become gradually conscious of. Unless this begins in us, Personality—which of course thinks it can do—remains active and Essence passive. This becoming gradually conscious of the part that pride, vanity, buffers and deep sleep play in our ordinary thinking and behavior is called the first phase of the Work. What is this phase called? It is called Awakening.” V. 3, p. 1160

Taken from= https://inner-world-books.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Gems_of_Wisdom.pdf

?✌️

[LastThursday]

16 hours ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

As Fonzi would say, Correctimundo. 

Reminds me of Saturday mornings at my grandparents, happy days they were.

16 hours ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

Please bear with me and try not to take it personal.

Don't worry I'm like a dog with a bone sometimes, I like to run with things to see where it leads. I only take things personally if it's personal which in this case it isn't.

16 hours ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

If we understand something completely it can’t make us have a negative reaction.

I am basically in agreeance with you. If we encounter someone who is complaining, then we can try and undestand their position completely, and then that emotional transference of negativity doesn't occur. Instead it's replaced by some sort of compassion or solidarity or a least a utilitarian need to help. On the flip side, if we have a complete understanding of where our negativity is stemming from, as well a meta-view of how our view fits into the greater whole, then we have a choice about how to express ourselves to others.

I think I was commenting from that point of having a grasp of the meta-view. For example I can get upset that my neighbours overflow the communal bins every week and complain bitterly about it to them. Or I can take the meta-view, that the bins should be emptied more frequently by the local council. So I have a choice about if and how I complain: it becomes strategic. And I think there's room for that sort of strategic complaining.

Is this negative? It's hard to tell, yes and no. It's still manipulation and transferring negativity, but also overflowing bins are a health hazard and ultimately I will suffer less in a healthy environment and so will my neighbours.

The big question is, do I have the time or inclination to understand a thing thoroughly? Is my interest in the removal of rubbish from my premises enough for me to have a deep understanding of the problem? Probably not in this case or even most other cases. So the default is to fall back on complaining as a tool to get what I want: I'm no Jesus Christ.

The other thing that springs to mind is: is being mechanical authentic? And is authentic good in all cases? I think you're saying no, and we should be getting away from being mechanical and instead apply some sort of awareness and understanding and this will ease suffering all round.

16 hours ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

“All negative states make you lie.”

I need to go off and contemplate that. My immediate reaction is no, but I could be wrong, probably am.

Edited June 9, 2021 by LastThursday

[Corpus]

I think the Serenity Prayer may have something to add to this discussion. I left a well-paying position after over a decade and this stemmed from plucking up the courage to make the change when acceptance of the observation that the environment and set-up I was mired in cared very little for any attempts to do the job to the highest standards, and any amount of gentle persuasion, attempts to draw attention to clear failings, and downright complaining made no difference whatsoever. Taking a meta-view of matters would not alter the reality on the ground and for my own well-being moving away, whilst initially difficult, has led to finding a niche where maintaining ones integrity towards ones work became possible.

This was the only "domain" in my life which elicited complaining of any magnitude, and by virtue of all that is Good, it is a novel and invigorating situation when one can thoroughly enjoy doing what one has spent many hard years of training to do, and to be able to honestly say that there is absolutely nothing about my life which needs to be complained about either reflexively or "consciously".

[Zigzag Idiot]

4 hours ago, LastThursday said:

Reminds me of Saturday mornings at my grandparents, happy days they were.

I’m glad you understand my attempt at humor. Nicoll, in his Psychological Commentaries on the Teaching of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky stressed the importance of being lighthearted. Although the 5 volume set is around 1760 pages, I enjoyed reading it so much, I read it a second time. Osho, I once saw, recommended it and remarked how much he liked it. Actually the set is comprised transcripts of his talks given to his work group over a ten year period. One of my favorite quotes of his in the category of what I view as being lighthearted is his talking basically about the condition of monkey mind-

  Nicoll psychological commentaries page 683.

Have you got sufficient inner observation? Have you cleared and well dug a big space in your mind through the practice of inner attention and put a hedge round it and a gate so that you can hear the click of the gate and watch this darling little thought coming up the drive all ready to say: “Oh, how tired I am,” etc.? I fancy that once we let it in very far every thought gets hold of us and wrings us, takes our blood, makes us react, talk, behave, in a certain way, and then, satisfied with having dined off us, it retires for a time.

4 hours ago, LastThursday said:

I need to go off and contemplate that. My immediate reaction is no, but I could be wrong, probably am.

Quite a few of his statements have affected me similar and I have had to do the same. There is one in particular that I still don’t have any clear understanding on. I may mention what statement that is some other time.

 

4 hours ago, Corpus said:

 

I think the Serenity Prayer may have something to add to this discussion.

 

That a good insight. Although I no longer crave alcohol. By common standards, I fit the description of being an alcoholic because of how my life was 20-30 years ago. The Serenity prayer with what it encompasses is an excellent example of how there can be areas of ones life that at times completely rule over some of us. For others it will be something different that renders them helpless in trying to overcome it on their own. Associated with what in the Work is called chief feature or sometimes one’s blind spot. 
@Corpus  Also in what you describe. I’m reminded of an axiom in the work that states - nothing can grow us in terms of being more than having to endure an injustice.

[LastThursday]

8 hours ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

Nicoll, in his Psychological Commentaries on the Teaching of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky stressed the importance of being lighthearted.

Indeed being lighthearted can smother the need for complaint. Everything is absurd and to be laughed at, and the most absurd being one's own righteous indignation.

If I ever take on a way for living life it would be to be lighthearted at all times, even in the face of seriousness.

[Zigzag Idiot]

@LastThursday  Well put!

Exactly how I see it too,,,