Universe vs Beyond Universe

[Mu_]

@tatsumaru Location is a mathematical idea of sorts you could say, however the advice I believe he was giving is more along the lines of investigating the "sense" of location "internally" where you/i feel like it is.  Like often, there is a sense of self that feels like it has a experience, rather then just experiencing, you could say.  Like you may have a sense of self that feels like "its" experience is close to something like a black-hole, rather then just experience.

This sense of self may think "The direct experience of this 'I amness' is simply awareness which is not unlimited". 

This sense of self may of felt like "I just realized how I was thinking of it in terms of a 'here' and 'there'. How can I surrender my center?"  Well if you are interested in finding out, read further and is said to play a part in such a result.....

Looking into "where" in experience the sense is coming from is self inquiry.  Becoming aware of this and its movements and influence one could say is a potential part of awakening.  You may in time begin to see how this sense, arises and disappears spontaneously, and this sense may influence all senses when it does so.  You may notice that when this sense arises, the idea's of being in control or lack of control also arise simultaneously and pass simultaneously along with "it".  This sense of self may begin to be agitated as its made aware of so to say and may scream and fight and all sorts of irrational confusing thoughts and extremes may happen (dark night kinda stuff) and it may not be easy, it may be the hardest thing you've ever experienced, and as such don't run for the hills wondering what the fuck is going on, know what your potentially getting yourself into. 

And in time it may become obvious that this sense of self is just that, a sense in which arises and falls as happening happens.....experience passes, actions pass.  Remember though, This sense of self is not an enemy or a not supposed to be there, but could be said to arise and pass just like all what seems to happen, in fact in may be useful to have loving kindness to this part/process, just like a person you may encounter "in the world".....  Theres a lot more that may appear to happen as well during this time, and wisdom that may fundamentally change Understanding, but this is not able to estimated ahead of time so to say.

 

[VeganAwake]

43 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

I don't feel the ants crawling on the tree's bark and I don't feel the pain of a dog kicked in China

That's because the body with its senses is neither the tree or the dog. There IS apparent separation in that sense.

Non-duality or Enlightenment is not about metaphorically smashing everything together into one entity or something weird like that.

It is pointing to the recognition that the individual "I am" experienced within the body is an illusion. Thus making any real idea of separation non-applicable. (e.g. There can't be separation without two or more separate individuals).

And yes even the concepts of enlightenment, union, non-duality or whatever else dissolve because they are clearly seen to be based within a dream story of a separate individual moving through time.

It's freedom for No One.

❤

 

[tatsumaru]

1 hour ago, Mu_ said:

@tatsumaru Location is a mathematical idea of sorts you could say, however the advice I believe he was giving is more along the lines of investigating the "sense" of location "internally" where you/i feel like it is.  Like often, there is a sense of self that feels like it has a experience, rather then just experiencing, you could say.  Like you may have a sense of self that feels like "its" experience is close to something like a black-hole, rather then just experience.

This sense of self may think "The direct experience of this 'I amness' is simply awareness which is not unlimited". 

This sense of self may of felt like "I just realized how I was thinking of it in terms of a 'here' and 'there'. How can I surrender my center?"  Well if you are interested in finding out, read further and is said to play a part in such a result.....

Looking into "where" in experience the sense is coming from is self inquiry.  Becoming aware of this and its movements and influence one could say is a potential part of awakening.  You may in time begin to see how this sense, arises and disappears spontaneously, and this sense may influence all senses when it does so.  You may notice that when this sense arises, the idea's of being in control or lack of control also arise simultaneously and pass simultaneously along with "it".  This sense of self may begin to be agitated as its made aware of so to say and may scream and fight and all sorts of irrational confusing thoughts and extremes may happen (dark night kinda stuff) and it may not be easy, it may be the hardest thing you've ever experienced, and as such don't run for the hills wondering what the fuck is going on, know what your potentially getting yourself into. 

And in time it may become obvious that this sense of self is just that, a sense in which arises and falls as happening happens.....experience passes, actions pass.  Remember though, This sense of self is not an enemy or a not supposed to be there, but could be said to arise and pass just like all what seems to happen, in fact in may be useful to have loving kindness to this part/process, just like a person you may encounter "in the world".....  Theres a lot more that may appear to happen as well during this time, and wisdom that may fundamentally change Understanding, but this is not able to estimated ahead of time so to say.

 

I am not sure what the difference between experiencing and a self is. In terms of where (whatever that means) in experience the sense of self comes, I would say that it feels like it's equivalent to the sensation of awareness. If one can observe the coming and going of so-called self then clearly there's something that's observing this coming and going, something which facilitates the coming and going of the self. I do not perceive awareness to be coming and going, feels to me like it's always silently projecting light in the background and the only thing I can do is to either notice it or be distracted and identify with something from the magic show. It's like there's a choice between watching the movie or noticing the light of the projector. Could it be that you are equating self and desire?

54 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

That's because the body with its senses is neither the tree or the dog. There IS apparent separation in that sense.

Non-duality or Enlightenment is not about metaphorically smashing everything together into one entity or something weird like that.

It is pointing to the recognition that the individual "I am" experienced within the body is an illusion. Thus making any real idea of separation non-applicable. (e.g. There can't be separation without two or more separate individuals).

And yes even the concepts of enlightenment, union, non-duality or whatever else dissolve because they are clearly seen to be based within a dream story of a separate individual moving through time.

It's freedom for No One.

That doesn't make any sense. If part of your experience is that there's separation and another that there isn't then this feels more like some sort of delusion than an actual realization. "This separate body isn't separate". Not resonating with this.

Edited June 4, 2021 by tatsumaru

[Mu_]

6 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

I am not sure what the difference between experiencing and a self is. In terms of where (whatever that means) in experience the sense of self comes, I would say that it feels like it's equivalent to the sensation of awareness. If one can observe the coming and going of so-called self then clearly there's something that's observing this coming and going, something which facilitates the coming and going of the self. I do not perceive awareness to be coming and going, feels to me like it's always silently projecting light in the background and the only thing I can do is to either notice it or be distracted and identify with something from the magic show. It's like there's a choice between watching the movie or noticing the light of the projector. Could it be that you are equating self and desire?

That doesn't make any sense. If part of your experience is that there's separation and another that there isn't then this feels more like some sort of delusion than an actual realization. "This separate body isn't separate". Not resonating with this.

I'm mearly trying to give pointers.  The sentences and pointers have no value in and of themselves.

Are you confused or feeling like your not understanding something, or are trying to understand more?  And if so, what exactly.

What exactly happened when you said to Leo "I just realized how I was thinking of it in terms of a 'here' and 'there.  What was the "it" also...  My feeling is this is a good starting point, because it seems like you've "learned/understood" a lot already, are open to more, and yet kinda defending your position, which is fine, I have no issues if this was the case...

[Mu_]

@tatsumaru Also it seems like you have idea's of awareness/I amness (we all do you could say, and ultimately its not an issue), one being that it is immediate or something and not "unlimitedness".  while I'm not going to argue one way or the other, look into the fact that there is still definitions and idea's on your part so to say about "awareness/I amness" and if its possible to drop even those and any others that may come up.  This is another type of self inquiry/deconstruction (as an experiment).  There may be some ideas of awareness being dependent on a body, or environment, or not being dependent, see if you can drop even those.  This can lead to a literal kind of unknown which is could be said to be devoid of any knowledge, self reference, dependence, choice, no choice, reason, non-reason, meaning-no-meaning.  

[allislove]

3 hours ago, tatsumaru said:

The direct experience of this 'I amness' is simply awareness which is not unlimited (e.g. I don't feel the ants crawling on the tree's bark and I don't feel the pain of a dog kicked in China).

Imagine there is a room with two devices: Amazon Alexa and Yandex Alice. You can come to Alexa and ask to play I Want To Break Free . You can come to Alice and ask to play Ololo , very different kind of music experience, isn't it?. At some point you may become very interested and ask one of them: "Who are you?". I am sure Alice or Alexa may tell you the story: I am a human being, here to help you.. but is it really so? It may appear that Alexa and Alice are separated entities behaving by themselves. But no electricity - no functioning of Alexa and Alice. Electricity is the true nature of both of them. Electricity is unlimited (not limited by the device). By letting go the conditioned thinking about yourself (like the program of Alexa and Alice), by directing all of your attention to the feeling "I AM" the true nature may remember themselves.

[VeganAwake]

3 hours ago, tatsumaru said:

That doesn't make any sense. If part of your experience is that there's separation and another that there isn't then this feels more like some sort of delusion than an actual realization. "This separate body isn't separate". Not resonating with this.

Exactly, this is a completely illogical message. 

It simply cannot be heard by the sense of self.

 

 

[tatsumaru]

4 hours ago, Mu_ said:

I'm mearly trying to give pointers.  The sentences and pointers have no value in and of themselves.

Are you confused or feeling like your not understanding something, or are trying to understand more?  And if so, what exactly.

What exactly happened when you said to Leo "I just realized how I was thinking of it in terms of a 'here' and 'there.  What was the "it" also...  My feeling is this is a good starting point, because it seems like you've "learned/understood" a lot already, are open to more, and yet kinda defending your position, which is fine, I have no issues if this was the case...

I do not perceive myself or my experience as enlightened, therefore I wish to go further and I am investigating in what ways I am blocking/preventing realization and possible transcendence. You could of course ask me how would I recognize enlightenment when it happens and I guess my answer is that there would be some sort of certainty for some sort of non-belief reason that there's no going further than that.

When Leo pointed out my unexamined belief in space I had a tiny moment like this one from the Matrix where Neo realized that the air he was breathing was a belief:

I contemplated if my perception of space is illusory. Realized that I am not sure what the 'there' that the eyes are perceiving is. No further insights evolved out of this inquiry.

 

3 hours ago, Mu_ said:

@tatsumaru Also it seems like you have idea's of awareness/I amness (we all do you could say, and ultimately its not an issue), one being that it is immediate or something and not "unlimitedness".  while I'm not going to argue one way or the other, look into the fact that there is still definitions and idea's on your part so to say about "awareness/I amness" and if its possible to drop even those and any others that may come up.  This is another type of self inquiry/deconstruction (as an experiment).  There may be some ideas of awareness being dependent on a body, or environment, or not being dependent, see if you can drop even those.  This can lead to a literal kind of unknown which is could be said to be devoid of any knowledge, self reference, dependence, choice, no choice, reason, non-reason, meaning-no-meaning.  

The only reason there's definition I think is because I am trying to communicate my direct experience of awareness to you. I think that I am aware of the uncovering of the unknown that you are speaking of. However I still equate this with the so called 'silent aware' that is peaceful and still but doesn't provide any clarity by itself.

2 hours ago, allislove said:

Imagine there is a room with two devices: Amazon Alexa and Yandex Alice. You can come to Alexa and ask to play I Want To Break Free . You can come to Alice and ask to play Ololo , very different kind of music experience, isn't it?. At some point you may become very interested and ask one of them: "Who are you?". I am sure Alice or Alexa may tell you the story: I am a human being, here to help you.. but is it really so? It may appear that Alexa and Alice are separated entities behaving by themselves. But no electricity - no functioning of Alexa and Alice. Electricity is the true nature of both of them. Electricity is unlimited (not limited by the device). By letting go the conditioned thinking about yourself (like the program of Alexa and Alice), by directing all of your attention to the feeling "I AM" the true nature may remember themselves.

Sure, I am breathing air and I am not separate from air. And from that perspective it seems like I do not exist independently which I most likely don't. Regardless I am only conscious of the air that I am breathing, not all the air everywhere even though I am connected with it by breathing it. Something is making it that I am not the awareness of the whole earth or the whole cosmos but simply the awareness of my own bubble so to speak. No matter what analogies are given I can't escape from the direct experience of not being conscious or aware of everything. I thought the analogies in your example weren't that great though, why would compare a human being to some recording.

53 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

Exactly, this is a completely illogical message. 

It simply cannot be heard by the sense of self.

This is not about logic it's about direct experience. If you don't have an explanation for it don't fill the gap with beliefs. That's fine.

By the way the Rumi quote in your signature made me cry tears of appreciation.

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by tatsumaru

[VeganAwake]

49 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

If you don't have an explanation for it don't fill the gap with beliefs. That's fine.

I gave an explanation and you apparently didn't resonate with it, and yes that's fine.

The message wasn't trying to convince you of adopting any new beliefs.

It was pointing out there was never a gap that needed to be filled in the first place.

❤

 

 

[Gnosis]

This is a very convoluted issue.

I haven't read every single post that was made in this thread, but the simplest answer to your question is that these implicit philosophical formalisms relate to mental constructs at different stages of development.

But take care in noting that this statement is already too big of a generalization (and also take note that I didn't state that you described these formalisms "correctly").

In general, I will say that you will not be able to understand this issue at length.

Also, "view" and "practice" are usually taught as different things in these traditions.

Furthermore, "where you're at" and "where you appear to be at to yourself" are usually different things.

This is all I can think of off the top of my head that would be remotely understandable statements.

Also, it appears that people here are trying to point to direct experience, maybe stop conceptually arguing.

There's no "Universe" or "Beyond Universe".

Just understand that when you understand, you don't. And then there's no problem.

[Gnosis]

You'll get the "clarity" you want, after you hit what Leo calls "rock bottom".

There's no other way. You'll just walk in circles and fumble around in the mud.

[Gnosis]

Suddenly everything will just "make sense".

Sometime later, you'll lose interest in things "making sense" and it won't even matter anymore.

I know that sounds hard to believe.

[Mu_]

@tatsumaru great. In a sense you are not missing anything but since you want to understand more I’ll continue poking. 

Honestly, how do you know your not enlightened  

and what is it in you that knows this  

is this knower or knowing sense always kinda there   Or does it come and go  

 

[Gnosis]

Also, you're "correct".

"I Am" is not unlimited, this isn't an "incorrect" observation. "I Am" is a completely "relative" thing.

I get the sense that you know what "I Am" is, and that's the only reason I'm referring to it. It's fairly specific.

You can approach it however you want, just do it 24/7 and it'll move forward regardless of your present opinions/understandings.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Gnosis

[allislove]

@tatsumaru 

Quote

No matter what analogies are given I can't escape from the direct experience of not being conscious or aware of everything

Can you expand on the last point? Who can't escape? Curious how it is seen.

Quote

I thought the analogies in your example weren't that great though, why would compare a human being to some recording.

A conditioned mind is the same as some recording. That's why someone said: Truth will make us free.

[tatsumaru]

47 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

@tatsumaru great. In a sense you are not missing anything but since you want to understand more I’ll continue poking. 

Honestly, how do you know your not enlightened  

and what is it in you that knows this  

is this knower or knowing sense always kinda there   Or does it come and go  

 

Well in all honesty the whole notion of enlightenment is just something I heard from somewhere. Essentially I have no idea what it even means or if its a real thing, its just a noise in my head. If I had to guess it has to do something with light. But if we remove all ideologies and beliefs all I feel is this strain, this search to understand what is going on. Honestly if we drop the whole act, the jobs, the marriages, the scientific research, the philosophies and all other layers of noise we have created and accumulated I am just a piece of being that has no clue what's going on. I don't remember where I came from and why, and I have no clue where I am going. If I had to define enlightenment myself it be for me to figure out what's going on. I mean obviously I know a little bit from direct experience such as love, harmony, awareness etc but I still have no clue what's going on, I don't even know who I am, what I am and when I am. I do not resonate with spiritual teachings which suggest that enlightenment is to simply accept this state and that's it. There's this nagging sense in the background that's screaming "JOURNEY INCOMPLETE". And of course there are certain desires related to the so-called dream, but there is this arch-desire to figure out what's going on that trumps and saturates them all and often makes them feel irrelevant. If there was a button that I could press to trade everything to figure out what's happening I would press it without hesitation. Mostly because I feel that life's whole point is that anyway.

As for the knowing/knower I am not sure. It feels like it's synonymous with thinking. I'd say that it comes and goes too although it feels more dense than usual mental masturbation/rationalization. If regular thinking is water, this is like honey.

 

43 minutes ago, Gnosis said:

You can approach it (the path) however you want, just do it 24/7 and it'll move forward regardless of your present opinions/understandings.

This has been my experience as well. After all the Buddha wasn't a Buddhist. I do not always enjoy the excruciatingly slow pace of unfolding though. Sometimes it takes 10 years for a tiny insight and breakthrough.

 

4 minutes ago, allislove said:

Can you expand on the last point? Who can't escape? Curious how it is seen.

What I meant was that I can't simply accept that I am everything when I feel relative. And I've been asked by spiritual teachers to realize that I am everything simply because I don't conceptualize borders in the naked awareness state.

5 minutes ago, allislove said:

A conditioned mind is the same as some recording. That's why someone said: Truth will make us free.

“Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate”. - Carl Jung
However I try to shine the light of awareness on everything that I do and thus I don't relate to the life of a cassette tape and that's why I don't think it's a good analogy for someone who is actually on the spiritual journey. I could be more conditioned than I think however.

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by tatsumaru

[Gnosis]

2 minutes ago, allislove said:

A conditioned mind is the same as some recording.

An enlightened mind is the same as some recording.

 

3 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

This has been my experience as well. After all the Buddha wasn't a Buddhist. I do not always enjoy the excruciatingly slow pace of unfolding though. Sometimes it takes 10 years for a tiny insight and breakthrough.

To be frank, I intentionally edited out "(the path)" in my post. It's a case of an attempt to simplify and remove ambiguity simply muddying the waters more.

 

To write out the sentence in its full convolution/nuance, I would label it in the following way,

47 minutes ago, Gnosis said:

You can approach it (your inquiry into "I Am", or more accurately, whatever you feel is "most fundamental") however you want, just do it (the inquiry and approach to all experience) 24/7 and it'll (development/"the vehicle") move forward regardless of your present opinions/understandings.

[allislove]

@tatsumaru 

Now I kinda see where you at so to speak. That's all good, my friend. Do not believe those spiritual teachers. I guess, you have to try everything and see that it doesn't work. Then a self realization comes by itself and suddenly everything makes perfect sense.

[Mu_]

@tatsumaru your awake in my eyes and missing nothing.  Trust your instinct about enlightenment. It’s just in your imagination. And there’s not one to find.  Even if hypothetically there was you would have no idea what your looking for, and no teacher agrees on how to find this undefined thing.   I know you don’t like to hear it, but this IS it. And no I don’t mean IT is everything or no-thing or infinity or God. 

This doesn’t mean more wisdom and understanding may not still occur, it may but you can’t make that happen. 

Btw knowledge and understanding how something works is overrated, and rarely is enjoyed longer then a few days. Same with being right or wrong.  Also I don’t know if this helps but  it’s okay for other teachers to supposedly know more or stuff that doesn’t make sense or is unfeasible, no need to waste energy and perhaps feel incomplete on longing or rejecting what they say. 

[VeganAwake]

9 hours ago, tatsumaru said:

By the way the Rumi quote in your signature made me cry tears of appreciation.

❤