Universe vs Beyond Universe

[tatsumaru]

I am not going to preach or claim anything in this post, I am simply going to share two radically different perspectives on what reality is because I am curious about people's experience of going further than Oneness/God/Universe.

I've noticed that a lot of spiritual teachings talk about merging with universe, oneness with everyTHING, union, god-unity, losing borders between internal external and so on, essentially all the Advaita stuff I've read is about this belief that identifying with the universe instead of your body is enlightenment or that somehow the goal is to mix yin with yang, day with night, life with death, inner with outer and achieve some enlightenment soup out of this which never made any sense to me. Not only it didn't lead to any understanding of any sort but also it didn't seem to match any of what the Buddha described as the Buddha-nature in his teachings (a reality beyond coming and going).

On the other hand if you go to the more advanced Buddhist and Taoist stuff there are multiple warnings against this Oneness mentality.
For example:
"A Buddha said, identifying with anything, even the universe at large, is an ego illusion."

Lao Tzu said, “The Tao gives birth to One. One gives birth to yin and yang. Yin and yang give birth to all things.” (Notice how Oneness/Union which is synonymous with God/Brahman isn't the ultimate truth)

Theravada Buddhism suggests that maya (Oneness + Yin/Yang) is a distortion, rather than an illusion; whereas in Vajrayana, the perceived reality of maya is considered literally unreal, while Mahayana Buddhists see the universe as a manifestation of Avidya or ignorance. Theravada is an offshoot of the earlier teachings of the Buddha while Mahayana is based on the later teachings with the Heart sutra being one of its core texts.

So I am curious if anyone has actually surrendered to or directly experienced a reality beyond the magic show of oneness and maya, beyond gods and heavens, beyond unity. If so I'd love to hear about their experience

 

 

[Anahata]

Your direct experience = The universe

Think about this...

You make yourself some tea and you drink it slowly while talking to someone over the phone.
Then you go to sleep and dream about making yourself some tea and drinking it as you talk to someone over the phone.
Both experiences are occuring within Consciousness.
Your mind creates labels/distinctions such as "dream", "waking life" and so on. But the substance of any experience you're having is pure Consciousness. No matter what 'state' you're in, Consciousness is being present. When you talk about 'The Universe' you are literally talking about your direct experience.

Universe, maya, personhood, any state of consciousness, any experience = infinity

But at the same time Infinity = Consciousness
Absolute infinity & Consciousness are one, they cannot be separated but the Will is what's choosing one experience over the other. Because the will is God as well. Infinity is free to play within itself forever, however it wants. There is nothing but God here.
God's will is choosing what's being experienced, for example right now God is willing into existence THIS. It can will anything into being since God=Infinity.

 

There is no "beyond" anything because there are no gaps made of unconsciousness between "here" and "there", since Consciousness is prior to time and space and there is no objective physical universe either. You are conscious, look around, feel what's happening, become aware of what is really happening here, this is IT, this is the actual universe, your conscious experience right here, right now!

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Anahata

[The0Self]

You could say so. This is an infinite, timeless, spaceless, boundless energy... Which isn’t moving. This is absolutely infinite. This does not experience longing as if separate from “it.” This IS longing. This has no need or want, and this is all there is, so no apparent “one” can want this. This imagines what this would be like if only this could want “something else” — this doesn’t want something else, as this is infinitely pristine innocent perfection, so this can appear as the imagination that there’s a being who experiences individuality — to get around that roadblock, so to speak. That still means this has no need or want (i.e. for something else) — this IS nothing being everything — everything... including the apparent wanting of something else.

So this doesn’t experience wanting something else as if separate from “it,” this IS what apparently happens; everything, including an apparent person’s experience of wanting something else.

Edited June 3, 2021 by The0Self

[tatsumaru]

16 minutes ago, Anahata said:

Your direct experience = The universe

Think about this...

You make yourself some tea and you drink it slowly while talking to someone over the phone.
Then you go to sleep and dream about making yourself some tea and drinking it as you talk to someone over the phone.
Both experiences are occuring within Consciousness.
Your mind creates labels/distinctions such as "dream", "waking life" and so on. But the substance of any experience you're having is pure Consciousness. No matter what 'state' you're in, Consciousness is being present. When you talk about 'The Universe' you are literally talking about your direct experience.

Universe, maya, personhood, any state of consciousness, any experience = infinity

But at the same time Infinity = Consciousness
Absolute infinity & Consciousness are one, they cannot be separated but the Will is what's choosing one experience over the other. Because the will is God as well. Infinity is free to play within itself forever, however it wants. There is nothing but God here.
God's will is choosing what's being experienced, for example right now God is willing into existence THIS. It can will anything into being since God=Infinity.

 

There is no "beyond" anything because there are no gaps made of unconsciousness between "here" and "there", since Consciousness is prior to time and space and there is no objective physical universe either. You are conscious, look around, feel what's happening, become aware of what is really happening here, this is IT, this is the actual universe, your conscious experience right here, right now!

 

My understanding is that direct experience is direct experience, not anything else. I am not arguing that so called waking life is more real than the dream that occurs within that waking life. I am suggesting that all of this which is constantly morphing and transforming, regardless of its density  or properties or relative verity or relative persistence is all a dream altogether - both falling asleep and waking up, life and death, beginning and end, here and there, time and space etc. However I am also saying that there is a further still. There's the actual still light of the projector projecting the movie that's beyond the universe and that the universe is the movie and that we are mistaking the movie for the light in a similar way we suspend our disbelief in the cinema so that the movie can make sense. So to say that direct experience equals the universe seems incorrect to me, why would you reduce direct experience to the universe? And if you say 'because there isn't anything else but the universe' or 'the universe is all there is' make sure this isn't a belief or a premature conclusion.

20 minutes ago, The0Self said:

You could say so. This is an infinite, timeless, spaceless, boundless energy... Which isn’t moving. This is absolutely infinite. This does not experience longing as if separate from “it.” This IS longing. This has no need or want, and this is all there is, so no apparent “one” can want this. This imagines what this would be like if only this could want “something else” — this doesn’t want something else, as this is infinitely pristine innocent perfection, so this can appear as the imagination that there’s a being who experiences individuality — to get around that roadblock, so to speak. That still means this has no need or want (i.e. for something else) — this IS nothing being everything — everything... including the apparent wanting of something else.

So this doesn’t experience wanting something else as if separate from “it,” this IS what apparently happens; everything, including an apparent person’s experience of wanting something else.

How did you manage to surrender beyond the coming and going, beyond space and time? Did you transcend the 6 senses (5 sense + thinking)?

[Anahata]

Just now, tatsumaru said:

My understanding is that direct experience is direct experience, not anything else. I am not arguing that so called waking life is more real than the dream that occurs within that waking life. I am suggesting that all of this which is constantly morphing and transforming, regardless of its density  or properties or relative verity or relative persistence is all a dream altogether - both falling asleep and waking up, life and death, beginning and end, here and there, time and space etc. However I am also saying that there is a further still. There's the actual still light of the projector projecting the movie that's beyond the universe and that the universe is the movie and that we are mistaking the movie for the light in a similar way we suspend our disbelief in the cinema so that the movie can make sense. So to say that direct experience equals the universe seems incorrect to me, why would you reduce direct experience to the universe?

The 'thing' which morphs into anything you're experiencing is consciousness itself. Truth is so close that no pointer is required since any pointer is 'it'. What is required is -> your awareness

Edited June 3, 2021 by Anahata

[The0Self]

16 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

How did you manage to surrender beyond the coming and going, beyond space and time? Did you transcend the 6 senses (5 sense + thinking)?

I never did anything. It was all a dream (basically). The claim "I am" turned out to be false. There was apparently a lot of self inquiry and contemplation and psychedelic use, but what was recognized is there's no cause and effect, so nothing led to anything. It didn't "help," if that's what you're really asking (not saying you are).

Edited June 3, 2021 by The0Self

[tatsumaru]

20 minutes ago, Anahata said:

The 'thing' which morphs into anything you're experiencing is consciousness itself. Truth is so close that no pointer is required since any pointer is 'it'. What is required is -> your awareness

I am aware of that perspective however I am suggesting that consciousness is still and never changed or morphed into anything and that which morphs is something else, possibly consciousness's desire to play manifesting in the form of maya.

19 minutes ago, The0Self said:

I never did anything. It was all a dream (basically). The claim "I am" turned out to be false. There was apparently a lot of self inquiry and contemplation and psychedelic use, but what was recognized is there's no cause and effect, so nothing led to anything. It didn't "help," if that's what you're really asking (not saying you are).

Do you feel like you can go further still? Seems to me that although you've achieved some realization if I asked you how anything works you wouldn't be able to say or you will give some cop out answer such as 'nothing ever happened' which might be true for the absolute Self, but it's not explaining how the absolute self manifests its desires into the form of a dream.

[The0Self]

39 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

Do you feel like you can go further still? Seems to me that although you've achieved some realization if I asked you how anything works you wouldn't be able to say or you will give some cop out answer such as 'nothing ever happened' which might be true for the absolute Self, but it's not explaining how the absolute self manifests its desires into the form of a dream.

It seemed to make sense at the time. It didn't, in actuality. But just for fun:

Apparently I used a lot of psychedelics, followed both Culadasa's and Rob Burbea's path guidance for the most part. 1-5 hours of meditation a day for about 5 years, Jhana's, Real-I-zation of Now, God-realization, realization of the infinite, and realization of progressively more infinite infinities. Lot's of ego-death and glimpses of absolute void-ness, usually "contaminated" by the psychedelic experience. Experimented with combining psychedelics, and combining dissociatives (usually ketamine) with psychedelics (usually LSD-25). Contemplation 24/7, even in dreams. Fasting, etc. Lots of obsessive extracurricular learning and google surfing and NCBI-studies-surfing to get a more complete picture of so-called objective reality. My life was incredibly ordinary, as is everyone's, which is also extraordinary: "undergraduate student with a girlfriend half the time." And a very stable and profoundly, lovingly abundant family life -- I was (and "am") profoundly lucky in that sense.

Oh, and all that contemplation meant I self-isolated (by apparent choice) far more that most of my peers with my ability to connect with others. I did Metta a lot and this seemed to improve charisma and confidence. After several awakenings, the obviousness that there's no free will and no separate self eliminated nearly all shame and guilt and self-consciousness. About a week ago something else seemed to happen -- enlightenment itself was seen as empty. That was the end of it, in a sense. Though meditation and consciousness-work may still appear to happen, there's very clearly no one doing it -- and not even anyone being carried through an imaginary thing called time.

There's just immediately what seems to be happening, with no stops, one could say. No certainty and no doubt, that there simply is no one separate from everything.

Further? There's no reference point left to know what that would even mean. So... Maybe? I have absolutely no clue.  To understand is to understand that you do not understand, but to understand fully is to understand that you do not understand even a single bit. This doesn't see a so-called future or even a "moment" -- this is absolute, ungrounded, unbounded, chaotic innocence. This is actually too obvious to see, amazingly.

Edited June 3, 2021 by The0Self

[Mu_]

2 hours ago, tatsumaru said:

I am not going to preach or claim anything in this post, I am simply going to share two radically different perspectives on what reality is because I am curious about people's experience of going further than Oneness/God/Universe.

I've noticed that a lot of spiritual teachings talk about merging with universe, oneness with everyTHING, union, god-unity, losing borders between internal external and so on, essentially all the Advaita stuff I've read is about this belief that identifying with the universe instead of your body is enlightenment or that somehow the goal is to mix yin with yang, day with night, life with death, inner with outer and achieve some enlightenment soup out of this which never made any sense to me. Not only it didn't lead to any understanding of any sort but also it didn't seem to match any of what the Buddha described as the Buddha-nature in his teachings (a reality beyond coming and going).

On the other hand if you go to the more advanced Buddhist and Taoist stuff there are multiple warnings against this Oneness mentality.
For example:
"A Buddha said, identifying with anything, even the universe at large, is an ego illusion."

Lao Tzu said, “The Tao gives birth to One. One gives birth to yin and yang. Yin and yang give birth to all things.” (Notice how Oneness/Union which is synonymous with God/Brahman isn't the ultimate truth)

Theravada Buddhism suggests that maya (Oneness + Yin/Yang) is a distortion, rather than an illusion; whereas in Vajrayana, the perceived reality of maya is considered literally unreal, while Mahayana Buddhists see the universe as a manifestation of Avidya or ignorance. Theravada is an offshoot of the earlier teachings of the Buddha while Mahayana is based on the later teachings with the Heart sutra being one of its core texts.

So I am curious if anyone has actually surrendered to or directly experienced a reality beyond the magic show of oneness and maya, beyond gods and heavens, beyond unity. If so I'd love to hear about their experience

 

 

Ya, interesting isn't, all these "awakened" interpretations and subtle differences.  Some say they are all saying the same thing, and others appearing to claim whats being said is different.

Random enlightened guy 0:  Your not awake, because Buddha said this, blah blah blah.

Random enlightened guy 01:  No your not awake because you haven't merged the emptiness and the everything.

Random enlightened guy 010:  But wait you didn't notice infinity or God.  So its not complete.

Whats a guy like you to do.  Right?

 

From your perspective, are the perspectives you shared true, possible, or neither?  How would you actually be able to validate it?

Is the source of your perspective, true, possible or neither?

Is the fact that there is a perspective happening wether it matches your perspective or not, proof that "something" is in fact going on?  Like could there be illusion/not real stuff if there wasn't at least "something" to be the source of such illusion/not real stuff?

And if there is in fact "something" is it possible that it is separate from anything? 

Put more complicatedly, where would anything come from to begin with,

1.  Wouldn't there need to be something always eternally so, like a basic ground in which stuff manifests from and as?  Like you can make clay into many shapes and functions like a house or a chair, or a table or a car, but its still clay.  Some may say this eternal is projecting illusion/imagination/dreams, but still these are from and as Eternal.

2.  Some may say it arises from an actual No-thing or is a projection of, but still this would mean everything comes/connected to No-thingness, ie; an illusionary projection of/from No-thingnes is still No-thingness itself.

 

This may take time to let in and understand, but once you do, you may notice, that essentially these metaphors are the same in practical purposes so to say.  You see, as a questioner, which you appear to be, with a perception, in either case, are connected to Source/Sourcelessness.

If that doesn't make sense, perhaps this video may help bridge some assumptions or lack of insights...

 

[The0Self]

9 minutes ago, Kalo said:

The experience which children and religious people dream about, ‘’Me standing here, and God over there’’, was the most existensiell and experiental terryfing experience of my entire life. 

It was not of the human dimension/world/reality.

It wasn’t a conscioussness-transcendence experience either. It was just, as I always tell people who ask me ‘’why’’ Ibelieve in God,

‘’I have meet Him’’.

There’s no separation, silly. You may resonate with what I’m saying or think it’s bullshit, but beware reactivity of the devil disguised as God — ego.

It was apparently your (God’s) imagination, literally. Please don’t confuse people. If you believe it, it’s not objectively true, so don’t act like it is. Or ignore that. Doesn’t matter. See what feels more fired-up for the caring ego, and promptly do the opposite. If you’re wise. Open your mind to just how radical the truth can be — it’s infinitely radical.

Edited June 3, 2021 by The0Self

[tatsumaru]

1 hour ago, Mu_ said:

From your perspective, are the perspectives you shared true, possible, or neither?  How would you actually be able to validate it?

This isn't meant to validate anything, it's more like a campfire chat for me where everyone shares their stories and I wonder about it. It is my understanding that even if one achieves a perfect scholarly understanding of reality but hasn't experienced it that is still not enlightenment (if there's even such a thing) and I like to call it Ego enlightenment, like someone who knows everything about sex but hasn't had any. When I was in India with a teacher we did a simple mindfulness of awareness exercise where the teacher was pointing us toward that which is aware of happiness but isn't happy itself. She called it the 'silent aware' and claimed this to be enlightenment. Now whatever that is, awareness or whatever you want to call it, it's definitely something I had overlooked before and had never noticed that I don't have to identify with thoughts in order to exist. So in a way this trip brought me great peace because I recognized the ability to not be a slave of thoughts. It was very similar to Advaia/Ramana realization but I'd say it went a bit further because the teacher said "this isn't oneness, because there isn't oneness without a many". However what bothered me was that the teacher tried to extrapolate this realization in order to explain all of existence which I think a lot of people do in order to silence the burden of the search so they turn it into a belief system. They say stuff like - notice how there are no borders in your awareness, there's no me, there's no time etc so therefore this is eternity  and complete enlightenment! - EEEEHHHRRR - wrong. I am simply not creating any concepts in this state and I am resting from conceptualization in my naked awareness, that is all.

A lot of spiritual people even serious ones when they reach a major realization or breakthrough of some sort they decide that this the final realization and I've always wondered why people decide that this is IT and there's no more going further. And the fact that different people decide it at different levels always bothered me a bit because it seems that it's a belief and not actual realization for some of the participants. Another problem is that a lot of these people can't answer any actual questions about creation and the workings of the universe which they should be able to if they have arrived at the source from which everything is created and manifested. How can you be enlightened and still have zero clue what's going on. They fill the gaps with theories and concepts like chaos, randomness, playful universe, "nothing ever happened" etc, Just because the duality might not be real doesn't mean that there's no experience of the magic show and the fact that that person is clueless about "the director" of the magic show suggests that either enlightenment is some sort of incomplete wisdom or that there is further work to be done.

 

36 minutes ago, The0Self said:

There’s no separation, silly. You may resonate with what I’m saying or think it’s bullshit, but beware reactivity of the devil disguised as God — ego.

It was apparently your (God’s) imagination, literally. Please don’t confuse people. If you believe it, it’s not objectively true, so don’t act like it is. Or ignore that. Doesn’t matter. See what feels more fired-up for the caring ego, and promptly do the opposite. If you’re wise. Open your mind to just how radical the truth can be — it’s infinitely radical.

I have heard from a spiritual friend that your beliefs might matter when you die. For example it is said that there is a dimension of experience which manifests your beliefs and you will meet the god you believe in there when you die, but not because it's real, more like because you were transported to the dimension of your imagination or something like this. He also suggested that if you really want to transcend all the way to the source you have to drop beliefs and surrender to what is without expecting to find gods and heavens and elves and buddhas and so on. I've been struggling with this surrender thing though, because I always expect for something to happen when I surrender. So I never surrender really.

Edited June 3, 2021 by tatsumaru

[The0Self]

5 hours ago, Kalo said:

My ego knows that God IS. My direct conscious-knowing of God is with no opposite.

‘’Ego disquised as God’’ < God is. In the awakening and death of the ego, what is realized? That God is.

Understand the simple but powerful importance of ‘’God is’’.

The moment we use ‘’God’’ we are recognizing a Total Absolute.

God is ABSOLUTE.

Do you understand what I’m saying?

This was totally contradictory to something else you said earlier today. Can’t remember what it was. But God is and most certainly isn’t separate from you. However what is (what you might call God) is neither real nor unreal.

[Mu_]

@tatsumaru I agree, the same things that bothered you about connecting experience with external reality that don't seem to make any sense of how they connect, really bothered me and still does to this day.  However a lot of my questions and pointers are in much the same way your first teacher brought you to looking at awareness that brought peace, my same questions can do something similar if interested, however only if its something worth your while, then again maybe it won't do anything.  It may also answer some of the questions, confusions and frustrations you express about all these views and how they know.

[Leo Gura]

Form is emptiness, emptiness is form.

Your desire to escape the universe is itself the duality and delusion.

[tatsumaru]

5 hours ago, Mu_ said:

@tatsumaru I agree, the same things that bothered you about connecting experience with external reality that don't seem to make any sense of how they connect, really bothered me and still does to this day.  However a lot of my questions and pointers are in much the same way your first teacher brought you to looking at awareness that brought peace, my same questions can do something similar if interested, however only if its something worth your while, then again maybe it won't do anything.  It may also answer some of the questions, confusions and frustrations you express about all these views and how they know.

Nothing wrong with peace. In fact it's likely a prerequisite for spiritual progress. Without being grounded in awareness, madness is a likely outcome when social constructs start falling apart on the journey. My intuition is that I haven't solved the awareness puzzle completely either so further inquiry could still yield benefits. I have taken a note to book a call with you in the future.
 

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Form is emptiness, emptiness is form.

Your desire to escape the universe is itself the duality and delusion.

Interesting. I just realized how I was thinking of it in terms of a 'here' and 'there'. How can I surrender my center?

[Preety_India]

@tatsumaru everything is just a dream and everything in this dream is just consciousness. 

So essentially everything is one. 

 

[Leo Gura]

37 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

How can I surrender my center?

Stop masturbating and do the hardcore spiritual practice.

You will not get anywhere without rigorous practice.

Sit down and do 10 days of non-stop one-pointed concentration. And if you're not willing to do that then you should just stop pursing spirituality because you will just chase your tail in circles and get no results.

[VeganAwake]

No need to cling on to all of this so-called acquired knowledge and experience.(not saying you are)

The mind will twist and distort everything anyways until the original message or pointer is almost completely lost. Use them as stepping stones only.

Follow your heart to feel authentic teachings. Not with the mind, but feel that what's being said is authentic.

At some point there'll need to be a Trust so deep that you become the teachings themselves and the "I" is nowhere to be found.

Then it may be recognized that there was never a Truth to be found or an individual in which could find it and know it.

❤

 

[allislove]

17 hours ago, tatsumaru said:

I am not going to preach or claim anything in this post, I am simply going to share two radically different perspectives on what reality is because I am curious about people's experience of going further than Oneness/God/Universe.

I've noticed that a lot of spiritual teachings talk about merging with universe, oneness with everyTHING, union, god-unity, losing borders between internal external and so on, essentially all the Advaita stuff I've read is about this belief that identifying with the universe instead of your body is enlightenment or that somehow the goal is to mix yin with yang, day with night, life with death, inner with outer and achieve some enlightenment soup out of this which never made any sense to me. Not only it didn't lead to any understanding of any sort but also it didn't seem to match any of what the Buddha described as the Buddha-nature in his teachings (a reality beyond coming and going).

On the other hand if you go to the more advanced Buddhist and Taoist stuff there are multiple warnings against this Oneness mentality.
For example:
"A Buddha said, identifying with anything, even the universe at large, is an ego illusion."

Lao Tzu said, “The Tao gives birth to One. One gives birth to yin and yang. Yin and yang give birth to all things.” (Notice how Oneness/Union which is synonymous with God/Brahman isn't the ultimate truth)

Theravada Buddhism suggests that maya (Oneness + Yin/Yang) is a distortion, rather than an illusion; whereas in Vajrayana, the perceived reality of maya is considered literally unreal, while Mahayana Buddhists see the universe as a manifestation of Avidya or ignorance. Theravada is an offshoot of the earlier teachings of the Buddha while Mahayana is based on the later teachings with the Heart sutra being one of its core texts.

So I am curious if anyone has actually surrendered to or directly experienced a reality beyond the magic show of oneness and maya, beyond gods and heavens, beyond unity. If so I'd love to hear about their experiencе

Investigate the nature of 'I'/'me' who claims to have a view on spirituality.

Is this 'I' located somewhere? Is it really separated from the 'world'? Direct all of your attention to the feeling 'I am'. The answer always waits you here. ?

[tatsumaru]

1 hour ago, allislove said:

Investigate the nature of 'I'/'me' who claims to have a view on spirituality.

Is this 'I' located somewhere? Is it really separated from the 'world'? Direct all of your attention to the feeling 'I am'. The answer always waits you here. ?

Location is just a mathematical idea that is useful but doesn't really mean anything from a direct experience point of view. To conflate direct experience with mathematics is in my opinion a fallacy. I have never experienced a location directly so I can't tell you where it is located. From my  perspective I am always where I am and there's never a location except here. Although I can conceptualize what 'there' is I never get to experience it. And since there's no there, there's probably no here either.

The direct experience of this 'I amness' is simply awareness which is not unlimited (e.g. I don't feel the ants crawling on the tree's bark and I don't feel the pain of a dog kicked in China). The closest thing I can compare to what my direct experience feels like is this black hole gif:

Moving but going nowhere. The planet is like a treadmill.