Esotericism Vs Zen

[Kazman]

Originally posted on Reddit. Thought I'd get some good replies here.

I'm a seeker as I believe many on this forum are. 
I try to look at as wide sources as possible and am really interested in Esotericism and the Fourth Way in particular. 
I'm also a follower of Actualized.org and also really like the approach Peter Ralston talks about enlightenment. He puts it so simply and clearly.
I find it odd that there is so much more in Gurdjieff's teachings, cosmic laws and all kinds of amazing stuff. Both teachings (more zen oriented and western esotericism) seem to suggest dropping all beliefs and attachments but Gurdjieff's way contains a lot of diagrams and intellectual material and I feel there's a danger of becoming too caught up in illusions. At the same time I love it.

Can anybody straighten this out for me? 
Thanks for all answers, cheerio!

Also! Do you think it's good to become too immersed in one spiritual tradition for proper progress? Or is it better to jump around on different retreats and read various sources?

[Leo Gura]

I wouldn't get too sucked into Gurdjieff's teachings. They are not nearly as effective as more modern teachings if what you're after is enlightenment.

Jumping around different teachings is fine, as long as you're jumping between great, direct teachings.

And if you seek esoteric powers, that's a whole nother rabbit hole.

[Kazman]

@Leo Gura wow, thanks for the quick reply!

Yes, it seems to be a lot of other stuff in his teachings, not just enlightenment. I will follow it a while more and see where it takes me while also doing other exercises. I will try to find more great and direct teachings  

I'm planning to go to an enlightenment intensive this summer, looking forward to that. 

An enlightenment experience is definitely what I'm most interested in but other esoteric experiences is also welcome.

 

[cetus]

@Leo Gura I just found a book By Matthew Bell  Melancholia The western malady. Have you read that one? 

[Bizarre]

37 minutes ago, Kazman said:

Gurdjieff's way contains a lot of diagrams and intellectual material and I feel there's a danger of becoming too caught up in illusions. At the same time I love it.

As much as I love to dislike Gurdjieff and his bizarre offering, I wouldn't be so hasty dismissing knowledge presented to you about the relative reality.  In fact, you will most certainly need a comprehensive insight into the workings of samsara if you ever want to free yourself from it.  These direct path teachings are fine, but a lot of those guys teaching that stuff are not enlightened by any stretch of the imagination - and there are very good reasons for that.  You want to find something that is both direct and indirect knowledge and will give you very clear cut excercises and the logic to back it up.  If you were ever to be stupid enough swallow esoteric teachings that are not grounded in common sense and a proper analysis of experience then quite frankly you deserve all you get

20 minutes ago, Kazman said:

An enlightenment experience is definitely what I'm most interested in but other esoteric experiences is also welcome.

You will certainly have plenty of those if you tread a watertight traditional path.  But experiences are not the be all and end all of enlightenment.  Understanding of the lessons contained in experience and a thoughtful, well structured inquiry into existence will do the job cleanly and effectively.  

Forget about netti netti and other such childish methods.  

If you like the sound of this, then I can point you in the right direction.

Edited November 8, 2016 by GTITurbolover

[Bizarre]

Hi Sigmund !

[Bizarre]

@NTOgen

So you're into moral philosophy too?

Why are you picking an argument about something I said? It's a trivial off the cuff remark, but strangely enough there is a lot of truth to it.

Stop being so sensitive. An enlightened person like you ought to know that you don't enter into this, never have, none of this has changed you. You are limitless and free.

This is about the information, not about how we come across. I don't walk on eggshells for anyone because I'm free to say what I like.

If you want something to think about, some grounded irrefutable universal knowledge about reality, then think about this: has anything that has ever happened changed you?

If you know who you are, you will have to agree with the fact that nothing that has happened has ever changed you.  Yet all samsaris will say that even when the sun goes in for a moment even that movement seems to change them on some level. 

Is this not true for every single sentient being in the creation? That if they are identified with their samsaric identity then they are changing all the time?  So if any teachings we resonate with don't give us these kinds of real insights and directions for inquiry into existence, then our karma hasn't evolved enough to be ready for the real deal.  

If anyone where to take what I said seriously, about deserving all we get, then wouldn't that actually be the truth?  

I'm just speaking the truth, you can chose to ignore it if you like. You're free, and always free to ignore it anyway. 

Edited November 9, 2016 by GTITurbolover

[Kazman]

@cetus56 i have not read it, will take a look

[Kazman]

@GTITurbolover i do like the sound of what you're saying.

What would the pointing in the right direction consist of? Thanks

[Kserkkj]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

And if you seek esoteric powers, that's a whole nother rabbit hole.

Like what?

[Bizarre]

@Kazman Looks like you're not quote ready. You need to have had your psychological problems sorted out first, and by the looks of it, if you agreed with what NTO said, then you more than likely have some emotional problems.  My tradition can't teach disturbed minds, the mind has to be calm and satvic and able to observe objects for what they are.  Discrimination, dispassion are two qualifications you need to develop first.

[Kazman]

3 hours ago, GTITurbolover said:

@Kazman Looks like you're not quote ready. You need to have had your psychological problems sorted out first, and by the looks of it, if you agreed with what NTO said, then you more than likely have some emotional problems.  My tradition can't teach disturbed minds, the mind has to be calm and satvic and able to observe objects for what they are.  Discrimination, dispassion are two qualifications you need to develop first.

Now I'm curious. Who are you and what do you do? Maybe I'll get to know some day.

but yes, as a human being I have emotional problems, quite common I believe. I feel like I'm healing myself so further along we'll see what happens.

[Kazman]

@GTITurbolover also, it's noticeable that you think I have emotional problems based on the fact that I liked somebody's comment.

maybe I didn't even fully agree, just thought it was a sensible perspective. How could you know from such a small gesture? 

But maybe you do see things I don't see. So I'm still curious

[Bizarre]

Just now, Kazman said:

@GTITurbolover also, it's noticeable that you think I have emotional problems based on the fact that I liked somebody's comment.

maybe I didn't even fully agree, just thought it was a sensible perspective. How could you know from such a small gesture? 

But maybe you do see things I don't see. So I'm still curious

Chill out. It was a joke directed at NTO

[Bizarre]

However,

I do apologise for littering your thread with my banter.

That was naughty of me.

Sorry 

Best friends?

[Kazman]

@GTITurbolover al righty. I'm mostly confused at this point, but not more so than before.

well I'm gonna check out James Swartz and work on myself and keep on truckin'. 

I don't know you so no best friends, but no hard feelings either, just confusion. 

At least I got replies