Against Solipsism...

[RMQualtrough]

Solipsists believe their relative conscious experience is the only thing that exists.

It is proposed that "others" are simply speaking pre-determined dialogue like in a dream.

But they are not consciously coming up with this dialogue, so WHO is saying these words?

There is evidently some conscious element they are unable to access. But that is accepted to exist by them because it is in the same mind. But if the mind is all that exists, space is only a projection. So there is no more distance between their subconscious mind and our conscious mind. It all occupies the same space because there IS no space in which to create distance.

So our minds are as valid and real as their subconscious mind, or whichever processes take place to conjure up dialogue for the person's dream characters and landscapes that they cannot directly access consciously.

[BipolarGrowth]

What is "Against Solipsism" here? This just looks like a definition of solipsism. Yes, your minds appear as valid as the subconscious mind in the solipsist model. You say this like a nondual solipsist would likely think the subconscious mind is something that exists outside of consciousness which is probably unlikely. 

[VeganAwake]

Reality doesn't care what concepts are given to it, it just continues being itself.

101 concepts can be given to reality, it doesn't change anything because reality is already complete...it doesn't have an identity issue.

 

[RMQualtrough]

7 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

What is "Against Solipsism" here? This just looks like a definition of solipsism. Yes, your minds appear as valid as the subconscious mind in the solipsist model. You say this like a nondual solipsist would likely think the subconscious mind is something that exists outside of consciousness which is probably unlikely. 

The subconscious is a conscious mind that the regular self can't access directly.

The fact there are multiple conscious minds in their own mind proves that it's possible for there to be an inaccessible conscious process.

Our selves to them are inaccessible conscious processes (they are not consciously controlling our words) just like what they call their subconscious.

No space means the physical distance between our selves and their mind is 0 and equal to the distance between their conscious and subconscious (also 0).

Dream characters have autonomy from the conscious dreamer unless the dreamer becomes lucid. The sub is acting autonomously and it is conscious and has knowledge. So do others. So the others have a conscious process and autonomy.

This is the distinction between solipsism and nonduality because both propose one mind. Solipsists believe their own conscious relative self-mind is all that exists but because of the subconscious it evidently isn't.

If you accept the subconscious exists you have to accept "other" minds.

Edited June 1, 2021 by RMQualtrough

[mandyjw]

Why would you assume that your mind, let alone anyone else's mind is a real thing if you've never experienced it? No one has ever found a mind. 

[kinesin]

8 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Why would you assume that your mind, let alone anyone else's mind is a real thing if you've never experienced it? No one has ever found a mind. 

Drop the bullshit.  When you look into your mother's eyes, what do you see?  You see a mind.  You see a person, you see a soul.  If you pretend not to be able to see such things, then it's almost surely the case that your intellectual curiosity regarding spirituality is blinding you to the reality (yes, reality) of subjective human experience.  You've come to believe that you aren't supposed to be able to see such things as a mind in another person, because according to the teachings that isn't the case.

The spiritual ego is truly the hardest part to overcome, but it must be let go of.

[mandyjw]

@kinesin In my opinion being seen as a mind or having others see me as a mind is just as objectifying as being seen as just a body. 

The only blinding, in my experience is the pure Light that is what we really are. 

Have you ever lost a relative who had Alzheimer's or dementia? Dealt with someone who had lost their mind? Someone who couldn't recognize you or remember who you were? And yet a connection of love beyond the two of you is possible there, perhaps more clearly possible than in any other circumstance because there are no expectations there. Solipsism is a severe limitation, but this understanding is like knocking down the barriers of love and connection that we thought were there, but really never were all along. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by mandyjw

[Mason Riggle]

@RMQualtrough's point is that it doesn't matter if there are 'really' other minds, or if it only 'seems like' there are other minds. 

Just like it doesn't matter if you are 'really' reading this sentence on a 'real' forum, of it just 'seems like' you are, but it's all in your head.

If you can't tell the difference, there is no difference. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Fran11]

1 hour ago, RMQualtrough said:

The subconscious is a conscious mind that the regular self can't access directly.

That's an oxymoron.

I like your analogy, but your consclusion is backwards.

You don't think of your subconscious as some bubble of consciousness which exists as an actuality outside of your experience right?  Then why do you think that way about "others"?

[Mason Riggle]

@Fran11 his wording may be a little off, but his point is solid. 

'Other minds' being a product of 'subconscious mind' is NO DIFFERENT than there being 'other minds'. 
 

[Fran11]

3 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Fran11 his wording may be a little off, but his point is solid. 

It's not just a wording problem.

He's comparing "other minds" to "your own subconscious" to prove these other minds exist as an actuality, but nobody really thinks of subconscious as an actuality.

[kinesin]

1 minute ago, Fran11 said:

but nobody really thinks of subconscious as an actuality.

I do, for one.  That aside though, the idea that you can blankly state such a thing as if it were true that 'nobody' thinks of the subconscious as an actual universal mind indicates a major lack of perspective or understanding of views outside of your own.  It goes without saying, but this is a common issue among solipsists.

[Fran11]

7 minutes ago, kinesin said:

 subconscious as an actual universal mind 

That's not what I meant, maybe I phrased it wrong. 

Anyways, your response is unnecesarily agressive and full of projections and asumptions, you don't really know my take on solipsism nor my level of openness about other perspectives. 

I was arguing honestly and on good terms, your shit-throwing is uncalled for and it really shows your own lack of openness which you proyect.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Fran11

[lmfao]

@RMQualtrough I knew you had anti-solipsistic thoughts the moment you starting spouting all of that narrative about telepathy and there being two hard drives in that thread a couple weeks ago lmao

Perhaps just turn a blind eye to solipsism and don't think about it, instead of making narratives still about it. You dumb bitch 

Edited June 1, 2021 by lmfao

[Mason Riggle]

14 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

He's comparing "other minds" to "your own subconscious" to prove these other minds exist as an actuality, but nobody really thinks of subconscious as an actuality.

He's comparing them to show that 'other minds' and 'projections of your own subconscious' exist in the exact same way.. that is to say, there is NO DIFFERENCE.   Whether other minds exist in 'actuality', or imaginarily, it doesn't matter.. there's LITERALLY no difference, from your perspective, the only one you will ever have. 

 

[kinesin]

@Fran11 I said your comment demonstrated a lack of perspective and then made a joke about solipsists.  I don't know why you interpreted that as being so aggressive as to call it 'shit-throwing', but suffice to say you must have misread me.

Edited June 1, 2021 by kinesin

[Fran11]

3 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

  Whether other minds exist in 'actuality', or imaginarily,

What I mean using the word "actuality" is actualized imagination, as in the present moment you are experiencing.

Obviously subconscious does not exist in the same way becouse if it did I would just be conciousness by definiton.

[Mason Riggle]

@Fran11 have you ever experienced 'subsconscious'? Have you ever experienced 'other minds'?  You experience neither. Any 'evidence' for either, only exists as 'more experience' which may be 'actual' or 'imaginary'.  Any evidence that your evidence is 'actual' or 'imaginary' only exists as 'more experience', which may be 'actual' or 'imaginary'... 

From the only perspective you have, it matters not which it is. 

[Fran11]

10 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Fran11 have you ever experienced 'subsconscious'? Have you ever experienced 'other minds'?  You experience neither. Any 'evidence' for either, only exists as 'more experience' which may be 'actual' or 'imaginary'.  Any evidence that your evidence is 'actual' or 'imaginary' only exists as 'more experience', which may be 'actual' or 'imaginary'... 

From the only perspective you have, it matters not which it is. 

I use the words Imagination and Actuality almost indistinctly. To me Actuality means what Consciouaness is imagining right now. You clearly do not, so you're gonna have to explain what you mean by those terms.

And no, as I said, you can't experience "subconscious" or "other minds", by definiton. We're on the same page on that one.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Fran11

[Mason Riggle]

12 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

Solipsists believe their relative conscious experience is the only thing that exists.

@RMQualtrough This is not quite accurate.  Solipsists understand (not believe) that their conscious experience is the only thing of which they can be 100% certain exists (this doesn't rule out the existence of other things, it only states that the solipsist can't be 100% certain that 'other things' 'really exist separate from the experience of them'), and perhaps they also understand (but it's not necessary that they do) that it doesn't matter whether or not there ARE other things, or it only SEEMS LIKE there are other things..   

Edited June 1, 2021 by Mason Riggle