Imagining the universe and consensus

[look_inside]

In several videos Leo tells the viewer that they are imagining the universe, including themselves.

It doesn't take long for a person to hear this and ask the following question:

Since there are other people in the universe, one can assume that they also have an experience that they are also imagining. Is their imagined universe consistent with mine? 

If yes- where did this consistent version originate from? and where is it held? And how is it held consistently in the face of anyone's ability to imagine it differently?

If no- then how do we interact with others as if there were a consensus version that we can agree on? Otherwise, if there is no consensus version, are we talking about some version of solipsism where there is only one point of view, and it is ours? Gotta say, this possibility is pretty unsatisfying to me as a model.

I do understand the idea that we are all actually one, and maybe there really aren't "others" to consider. But even this being the case, we still need to deal with the fact that there are other characters in the this drama we call life,, don't we?

 

 

  

Edited May 31, 2021 by look_inside

[Tim R]

@look_inside Use the search function. There are many, many threads about this sort of question already.

[look_inside]

Thanks Tim.

No surprise this has been covered. I gotta improve my search skills I guess.

I have searched but don't find a thread that covers this. Can you point me to one? 

Edited May 31, 2021 by look_inside

[bejapuskas]

@look_inside  If you understand imagining as interpreting (imagining meaning), then you might say that we all live in completely different worlds. In my experience, the imaginations are usually not connected, as I cannot read other people's minds, but they can sometimes overlap, and there are exercises you can do to access this. In my understanding, it is good that our worlds do not merge, as it creates more freedom for everyone to control their own lives, instead of everybody consciously.

[look_inside]

Bejapuskas-

Please don't take this wrong, but this sort of feels like a cop out.

If me and my brother both agree that there is a racoon living in our back yard we have consensus. If we disagree then we don't.

And if we disagree I can point at the racoon to prove it. He MUST agree, or we have an unreconcilable factual discontinuity in reality. This for the most part doesn't happen in our world, especially on big and obvious things. 

Now, of course he could be experiencing a totally different reality where he can prove to me that there is no racoon. However this is a different model of reality where each of us has totally different experiences. In this pair of realities there is no overlap, no need for consensus: we each define all the aspects of our personal reality. Perhaps even with different laws of physics etc. This is solipsism: where each of us inhabit a life where we are the only valid actor. All other actors in this (my) reality are not actually having an experience at all, or at least are not in control of their experience.

My question is: what is Leo describing?

Edited May 31, 2021 by look_inside

[Tim R]

4 hours ago, look_inside said:

Can you point me to one? 

Just look for "Solipsism". Because that's at the core of your question.

But I can tell you this already: solipsism is not real. However, "other people" are also not real. To understand what this means, you really need to do some consciousness work and contemplation. Consciousness is, but no one who is conscious. 

And by the way, before you dig through the old threads: there's a lot of speculation and mental masturbation going on in some of those threads, so watch out for that. 

[look_inside]

Not to be too flippant about this but most of the interplay on sites of this type are mental masturbation. Such is usually the nature of discussions the orbit around philosophy and spiritual topics. 

This is why I'm trying to ask very defined questions, and am looking/hoping for very direct and applicable answers. 

Typically for every direct answer I expect to see 3-4 answers along the lines of "love is all there is" or "stop looking, you are already there" or "you are everything". Even though all of these may be true, they dance around the hard questions for which there is usually an comprehensible answer.

 

[Leo Gura]

Think of how your dreams work.

Life is a dream.

[Tim R]

29 minutes ago, look_inside said:

Even though all of these may be true, they dance around the hard questions for which there is usually an comprehensible answer.

Nope, you won't get any real answer for the hard questions, not on any forum, not from anyone, not in any words.

Either you get platitudes as answers for asking hard questions, or you ask simple questions and get "comprehensive answers". 

[RendHeaven]

9 hours ago, look_inside said:

Since there are other people in the universe, one can assume that they also have an experience that they are also imagining.

This IS your imagination...

But, keep in mind that it is an INFINITELY INTELLIGENT imagination.

So be wary, I'm not suggesting that it's some mere flimsy imagination that you can easily dispel.

Rather, it is the deepest and strongest imagination conceivable, so yeah it's really no surprise that you don't see through it haha 

Edited May 31, 2021 by RendHeaven

[look_inside]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Think of how your dreams work.

Life is a dream.

OK, lets run with that... Dreams are my specialty being a lucid dreamer...

In my dream, lets say all the characters are an aspect of me. So following your suggestion, in my life everyone is an aspect of me as well.  Cool.

Conversely, those other people, if they are participating in the same reality as I am, and if they are independent actors like me, see me as an aspect of their dream. 

We can't both be the "imaginer" of this dream we are living.  

So doesn't this boil down to how many actual entities are there? 

Do I have free will? And do any of the 8 billion others who populate this planet? If more than one of us has free will, we need to come to terms with consensus. Or,,,  If I just think of this as a dream then it is just me. Problem solved. But that that means there are no other independent beings involved, and I don't think that's the case, Do you?

If we are intellectually honest, we can't just wave our arms and make this issue disappear. We have to account for it and explain it. If that has been done anywhere here in text or video I would love to have someone point it out. I don't want to make people have to repeat what might be the same old tired subject. 

OTOH- if there is no accounting for it, we have just one more incomplete ontology. 

Lets face it, all ontologies have dark corners that go unexplained or are inconsistent, but consensus is a monumental thing that is in the center stage with a spotlight on it, not a dark corner.

Edited June 1, 2021 by look_inside

[look_inside]

1 hour ago, RendHeaven said:

This IS your imagination...

But, keep in mind that it is an INFINITELY INTELLIGENT imagination.

So be wary, I'm not suggesting that it's some mere flimsy imagination that you can easily dispel.

Rather, it is the deepest and strongest imagination conceivable, so yeah it's really no surprise that you don't see through it haha 

You are being fantastically unclear.

Are you saying there are others in reality that are also imagining? or not? Isn't this the crux of the issue? not whether imagination is super intelligent or just a little intelligent.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, look_inside said:

So doesn't this boil down to how many actual entities are there? 

The difference between one and many is imaginary.

The difference between anything IS called dreaming.

[look_inside]

I'm done.

No more rope a dope Q&A for me.

Have a nice day.

 

[BipolarGrowth]

If you can count an "actual entity" and seriously regard it as that, you're incapable of seeing the nondual solipsist's view. 

[bejapuskas]

20 hours ago, look_inside said:

Now, of course he could be experiencing a totally different reality where he can prove to me that there is no racoon. However this is a different model of reality where each of us has totally different experiences. In this pair of realities there is no overlap, no need for consensus: we each define all the aspects of our personal reality. Perhaps even with different laws of physics etc. This is solipsism: where each of us inhabit a life where we are the only valid actor. All other actors in this (my) reality are not actually having an experience at all, or at least are not in control of their experience.

I said there sometimes is overlap, sometimes no, there is both. What do you mean by valid actor? Are you describing your experience or an idea about experience?