So many of my friends are anti vaxxers

[Roy]

23 minutes ago, Thetruthseeker said:

@Roy I want the screen shots! Lol ? 

We were unmatched when I woke up lol. Basically she asked what my "level of awareness what on Covid". I figured she was an anti-vaxxer and testing me, so I went casual and asked if she was asking me how seriously I took it, if I had my shot, and if she wanted a socially distanced date.

Then she said she was trying to figure out my level of awareness if I viewed it from an "awakened" or "unawakened" state, and by my response she said she's already got her answer, and that there would be a hard time connecting because of our differing levels of awareness.

To which I responded lengthily with my own interpretation of what Covid means in an existential state about community, our relationship with nature, responsibility, in an attempt to appease her ideals etc. BUT finished with a rug pull of "Yea I don't think I can connect with someone who talks about consciousness and awareness, but doesn't embody it enough not to judge someone based off the very first remark to come out of their mouth."

Which promptly triggered her, so I ended the conversation.

[Roy]

But yeah the Stage Green aversion to vaccines is generally confusing. The whole spiel about authoritarianism and control is so hilariously misplaced, the governments of the West as far as I'm aware aren't abducting people and forcing a needle into their arm. Most of them aren't even aware enough of geopolitics and history to realize how incredibly lucky they are, that they get the chance to develop and pursue life to get to the place where they are at having never faced ANY resistance comparable to that from an actual authoritarian regime or repressive society/culture.

It is what it is though, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[Loving Radiance]

On 29.5.2021 at 3:27 PM, Thetruthseeker said:

I thought I was stage green and a lot of my friends were too. But most of them are anti vaxxers. would this be expected for stage green?

they’re all listening to Russel brand and saying how ‘it’s all profit and control’ etc from the elites, like bill gates.

Most of my friends are ‘spiritual’ people doing yoga, Ayauasca, cacao ceremonies etc. But they’ve really resorted to all going against getting a vaccine

it’s difficult for me because they’re nice people, but I’m getting tired of what to say when they post about it and talk about it all the time 

ps, I’ve had my vaccine. Not trying to spread anything false info here.  Just feeling confused why how many of my friends feel this way and it’s becoming increasingly difficult to stay friends and have a conversation with them

Then talk about topics that bring you together like spirituality. Whenever they talk about the dark forces and elites in the world you can replace that with unconsciousness and selfishness.

IME, there is no reasoning possible (although I like to question my friends) because there is a whole worldview attached. Which is also right in some ways. I tend to agree & disagree or agree & add on.

However, as Leo's newest video showed: don't be that attached to external things and have the ability to leave if necessary.

[krockerman]

I think people over 50-65+ should take it and people in risk groups. You should only use medicine when it is needed IMO. Otherwise, we run the risk of a backfire where the virus mutates into more dangerous forms. Covid is relatively harmless for young people. I don't see much reason why we should take it. 

 But ofc everone has a right of making a choice of taking/not taking it as long as you don't go around moralizing to others about their decision. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by krockerman

[Opo]

1 hour ago, krockerman said:

Otherwise, we run the risk of a backfire where the virus mutates into more dangerous forms. Covid is relatively harmless for young people. I don't see much reason why we should take it. 

The more people have covid higher the chance that it will mutate. 

You have it upside down. 

2 hours ago, krockerman said:

Covid is relatively harmless for young people. I don't see much reason why we should take it. 

If the only thing you're looking at is death rate than yes. 

But even with that the newer forms of covid are more dangerous to young people than the original.

Hopefully we won't get an even worse one. 

2 hours ago, krockerman said:

But ofc everone has a right of making a choice of taking/not taking it as long as you don't go around moralizing to others about their decision. 

Ironically this is a moralization. 

[tuckerwphotography]

It appears clear to me that there's two factions of Stage Green with some overlap (think of a Venn diagram): 

1. Woke Green (more politically oriented)

2. New Age Green (more spiritually oriented) 

Nearly all my New Age Green friends are opposed to the vaccine, including my girlfriend. Distrust of anything Orange is a natural and somewhat healthy part of moving through Green, though with the vaccine stuff it appears to me that this sentiment has been hijacked by group think and mass rebellion. I wrote an essay about my decision to get the vaccine using Spiral Dynamics to describe the various memetic tribes at play:  

https://medium.com/@tuckerwalsh/to-vaccinate-or-not-to-vaccinate-f918deabb352?postPublishedType=repub

[vladorion]

There are already several variants.

By the time they develop vaccines for the new variants and everybody takes them, there will be dozens of new variants.

[Opo]

16 minutes ago, vladorion said:

There are already several variants.

By the time they develop vaccines for the new variants and everybody takes them, there will be dozens of new variants.

"All COVID-19 virus variants that have emerged so far do respond to the available approved vaccines," 

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210521/covid-vaccine-variant-protection#:~:text=May 21%2C 2021 -- The,World Health Organization official says.

 

[Arcangelo]

14 hours ago, BadHippie said:

I know a lot of people who are yellow

The chances of you knowing a lot of yellow people are slim to none.

You need to go back and study the model again. You are confusing yellow with orange most likely.

[Gennadiy1981]

@hoodrow trillson few things to mention. You are speaking of risks vs benefits. I am a 39 year old healthy individual who for the most part trying to live all natural life. As per statistics from CDC, my chances of dying from COVID are 0.003%, which are very slim and the vaccine comes with very serious risks like blot clots, belsy paralysis, heart inflammation and so on. This is an educated choice that I am making for myself. Now, I am a very big proponent of my body my choice kinda thing, so if you truly believe you really need this vaccine, then be my guest. I just don’t believe we have the right to force this product on people. Let everyone make educated decisions and most importantly, people should do with their lives what they think is best for themselves. This is my humble opinion.

[krockerman]

11 hours ago, Opo said:

The more people have covid higher the chance that it will mutate. 

You have it upside down. 

If the only thing you're looking at is death rate than yes. 

But even with that the newer forms of covid are more dangerous to young people than the original.

Hopefully we won't get an even worse one. 

Ironically this is a moralization. 

If you look at the history of anti biotics you will see that it was given to everyone for the smallest thing, the price of that was that now we are getting anti biotic resistant bacteria. 
 

Ok fine I was moralizing but what I am trying to tell you is that I know people who is gonna refuse the vaccine just because some of their family members was moralzing. Go around and moralize if you want but realize the counte-intuitive  nature of it

Edited May 31, 2021 by krockerman

[Consept]

7 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

@hoodrow trillson few things to mention. You are speaking of risks vs benefits. I am a 39 year old healthy individual who for the most part trying to live all natural life. As per statistics from CDC, my chances of dying from COVID are 0.003%, which are very slim and the vaccine comes with very serious risks like blot clots, belsy paralysis, heart inflammation and so on. This is an educated choice that I am making for myself. Now, I am a very big proponent of my body my choice kinda thing, so if you truly believe you really need this vaccine, then be my guest. I just don’t believe we have the right to force this product on people. Let everyone make educated decisions and most importantly, people should do with their lives what they think is best for themselves. This is my humble opinion.

This is speaking from an individual cost benefit analysis, from this perspective yes youre right you will most likely be fine. But really Covid or any contagious disease or virus is a community and society issue, which is why a vaccine is needed. If you were talking about diabetes that just affected you then your cost benefit conclusion would be fine, but it cant really be the same rationale in this instance. 

Also youre looking at covid from just deaths, whereas with the vaccine you pointed out the side effects, there are definitely more longer lasting side effects from covid than the vaccine, youve put your reasoning for not taking the vaccine is side effects. If that is a valid reason for you surely you would go down the road with the least side effects. 

2 hours ago, krockerman said:

Ok fine I was moralizing but what I am trying to tell you is that I know people who is gonna refuse the vaccine just because some of their family members was moralzing. Go around and moralize if you want but realize the counte-intuitive  nature of it

There seem to be a lot of anti-vaxxers that are much more passionate about their position than people moralising about taking the vaccine. I dont think youd find protests or 'pro-vaxxers', people dont particularly want to take the vaccine in general but they do for their own reasons, theyre not really passionate about in the same way anti-vaxxers are. Which then begs the question of if we take your point that its counter-intuitive, shouldnt anti-vaxxers shut up about it as well as theyre probably driving people to take it? 

[Blackhawk]

8 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

@hoodrow trillson few things to mention. You are speaking of risks vs benefits. I am a 39 year old healthy individual who for the most part trying to live all natural life. As per statistics from CDC, my chances of dying from COVID are 0.003%, which are very slim and the vaccine comes with very serious risks like blot clots, belsy paralysis, heart inflammation and so on. This is an educated choice that I am making for myself. Now, I am a very big proponent of my body my choice kinda thing, so if you truly believe you really need this vaccine, then be my guest. I just don’t believe we have the right to force this product on people. Let everyone make educated decisions and most importantly, people should do with their lives what they think is best for themselves. This is my humble opinion.

It's not the risk of dying you should worry about. It's the risk of getting other stuff like postcovid symptoms (extreme tiredness, lack of sense of taste and smell, etc.)

And also the risk of getting a blood clot from covid is much higher than the risk of getting a blood clot from a vaccine. There's super super small risks with the vaccines. The risks for you are much higher if you don't take the vaccine.

[BadHippie]

Quote

The chances of you knowing a lot of yellow people are slim to none.

You need to go back and study the model again. You are confusing yellow with orange most likely.

What´s with assumptions and this forum here? What use does this post have from you? That´s just my personal experience. And I studied Spiral Dynamics a lot. I have friends who wrote their bachelor on that topic. 

Yellow just means they have yellow aspects, there are very few people who have integrated yellow completely in every aspect. 

 

Quote

There seem to be a lot of anti-vaxxers that are much more passionate about their position than people moralising about taking the vaccine. I dont think youd find protests or 'pro-vaxxers', people dont particularly want to take the vaccine in general but they do for their own reasons, theyre not really passionate about in the same way anti-vaxxers are. Which then begs the question of if we take your point that its counter-intuitive, shouldnt anti-vaxxers shut up about it as well as theyre probably driving people to take it? 

Well why are they more passionate? Because they fear that the government will try to push for mandatory vaccines, so they are anxious about the future. Almost no "anti-vaxxer" wants to prohibit people from taking the vaccine, they just don´t want to take it themselves. That´s why they stand up and don´t shut up. Pretty "logical" to me. Why would someone who just takes the vaccine be passionate about vaccines, if he only did so because of group-mentality and thinking it´s the ethical choice. They simply bought into that narrative, but (mostly) don´t understand anything about vaccines.

People who just take the vaccine mostly don´t really inform themselves. At least here in Germany. I talked to a lot of my friends, who want to take the vaccine. They are unopen-minded, highly ideological and not able to discuss their point of view from a higher perspective. All I hear from them is moralizing how taking the vaccine is solidarity and our duty for humanity. Then they label me as lacking in solidarity, just because I have a different view on that topic.

 

Quote

It's not the risk of dying you should worry about. It's the risk of getting other stuff like postcovid symptoms (extreme tiredness, lack of sense of taste and smell, etc.)

And also the risk of getting a blood clot from covid is much higher than the risk of getting a blood clot from a vaccine. There's super super small risks with the vaccines. The risks for you are much higher if you don't take the vaccine.

You know these "post-covid" symptoms aren´t anything new that came with COVID? There were always cases of people taking a long time to recover after being in intensive care. We just never had media broadcasting it 24/7 and linking it to a specific virus... 

The risk isn´t the same for everyone. You can´t just say it´s higher for everyone... In order to get a blood-clot from COVID, you first have to get COVID... Which some people simply won´t get. By taking the vaccine you always have the risk of getting blood-clots. 

You should really try and check what assumptions you are making without doing your own sensemaking.

Edited May 31, 2021 by BadHippie

[Consept]

30 minutes ago, BadHippie said:

Well why are they more passionate? Because they fear that the government will try to push for mandatory vaccines, so they are anxious about the future. Almost no "anti-vaxxer" wants to prohibit people from taking the vaccine, they just don´t want to take it themselves. That´s why they stand up and don´t shut up. Pretty "logical" to me. Why would someone who just takes the vaccine be passionate about vaccines, if he only did so because of group-mentality and thinking it´s the ethical choice. They simply bought into that narrative, but (mostly) don´t understand anything about vaccines.

But again the passion comes from the assumption and belief that what they think is correct. You could replace this with a Christian and say that they are fearful that the government will ban Christianity which is why they make a large effort to help people convert to their religion. Christianity or any religion assumes its correct and works backwards, so if they are correct then of course they will be passionate about helping people avoid hell. But the bigger question is are they actually correct? most likely not completely. Its the same with anti-vaxxers, even if you disregard all science and experts you cant really come to a 100% true conclusion that vaccines are good or bad, you might lean one way or the other, or like most you might say, im not 100% sure vaccines are completely safe but its better than the alternative. The issue with anti-vaxxers is they are saying that theyre 100% sure and having protests and internet campaigns to convince others to join their movement, to me this is not honest and although their intentions might be good its a potentially dangerous method of thinking that has always caused problems throughout history.

If they were to say something like 'looking at the facts we can see that the side effects are close but probably worse if you take the vaccine so im not choosing to take it, however there is evidence that it could be the other way so i wouldnt advise anyone to follow me', thats one thing but to actively make it seem like they hold the truth doesnt make sense to me. Obviously im specifically talking about those that post on social media, make videos, setup organisations and preach about anti-vaxx. 

 

[krockerman]

2 hours ago, Consept said:

This is speaking from an individual cost benefit analysis, from this perspective yes youre right you will most likely be fine. But really Covid or any contagious disease or virus is a community and society issue, which is why a vaccine is needed. If you were talking about diabetes that just affected you then your cost benefit conclusion would be fine, but it cant really be the same rationale in this instance. 

Also youre looking at covid from just deaths, whereas with the vaccine you pointed out the side effects, there are definitely more longer lasting side effects from covid than the vaccine, youve put your reasoning for not taking the vaccine is side effects. If that is a valid reason for you surely you would go down the road with the least side effects. 

There seem to be a lot of anti-vaxxers that are much more passionate about their position than people moralising about taking the vaccine. I dont think youd find protests or 'pro-vaxxers', people dont particularly want to take the vaccine in general but they do for their own reasons, theyre not really passionate about in the same way anti-vaxxers are. Which then begs the question of if we take your point that its counter-intuitive, shouldnt anti-vaxxers shut up about it as well as theyre probably driving people to take it? 

Yes. Both sides are moralizing. I don’t think it is good that neither side does it. Anti-vaxxers protest and pro-vaxxers act morally superior/preaching to others. 
 

Then we have people that take the vaccine and don’t act superior because of it, and then we have other people who don’t take the vaccine without protesting in the streets.

What I am trying to say is that you can think what you want about people who decides to not take it, but they still have the freedom for themselfs. If they chose to not take and die from covid instead, well that is the risk they take. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by krockerman

[Zega]

It's really bad on social media like IG and FB.

I've noticed two types of anti-vaxxers. There's your (probably) libertarian, "I don't trust the government" people, and then there's the people who say, "I'm not anti-vaccine but..." and I'm surprised at many of the people around me who fall into the ladder. 

The biggest one I see is that it's not FDA approved and it's a "human trial" and frankly this all sounds like fake news and conspiracy to me. The irony is that these people say they are "woke" about this stuff 

[Opo]

38 minutes ago, Zega said:

The biggest one I see is that it's not FDA approved and it's a "human trial" 

Most common one that I see is tHeRe SiMpY hAsN't BeEn AnY LoNgTeRm TeStInG oF tHe SiDe EfFeCtS. 

[Consept]

12 hours ago, Opo said:

Most common one that I see is tHeRe SiMpY hAsN't BeEn AnY LoNgTeRm TeStInG oF tHe SiDe EfFeCtS. 

Thats the standard reply, but then the question i wonder about is how many of those people if they had a life threatening illness, would take a new med that hasnt been tested long term? 

[Rajneeshpuram]

Your friends are right, the human being has lived thousand of years coexisting with all type of virus without the need of  vaccines. Vaxers are like these type of people that cant live without the smartphone.