So many of my friends are anti vaxxers

[Thetruthseeker]

I thought I was stage green and a lot of my friends were too. But most of them are anti vaxxers. would this be expected for stage green? 
 

they’re all listening to Russel brand and saying how ‘it’s all profit and control’ etc from the elites, like bill gates.

Most of my friends are ‘spiritual’ people doing yoga, Ayauasca, cacao ceremonies etc. But they’ve really resorted to all going against getting a vaccine 
 

it’s difficult for me because they’re nice people, but I’m getting tired of what to say when they post about it and talk about it all the time 

ps, I’ve had my vaccine. Not trying to spread anything false info here.  Just feeling confused why how many of my friends feel this way and it’s becoming increasingly difficult to stay friends and have a conversation with them 
 

[Consept]

1 hour ago, Thetruthseeker said:

I thought I was stage green and a lot of my friends were too. But most of them are anti vaxxers. would this be expected for stage green? 
 

they’re all listening to Russel brand and saying how ‘it’s all profit and control’ etc from the elites, like bill gates.

Most of my friends are ‘spiritual’ people doing yoga, Ayauasca, cacao ceremonies etc. But they’ve really resorted to all going against getting a vaccine 
 

it’s difficult for me because they’re nice people, but I’m getting tired of what to say when they post about it and talk about it all the time 

ps, I’ve had my vaccine. Not trying to spread anything false info here.  Just feeling confused why how many of my friends feel this way and it’s becoming increasingly difficult to stay friends and have a conversation with them 
 

Its kinda normal for those who have their identity wrapped around green, specifically new age type thinking, to shun any medical science. Theres a dogmatic view that unless its completely natural it cant be good for you, in some respects they have points but there isnt any flexibility to their argument and in the real world it can cause a lot of problems, for example if they refuse certain treatments that could cure them of a life threatening disease. 

This view has always been under the surface but has really exploded since the pandemic which is situation where they would get pushback for their views, whereas before they were the only ones who could be potentially harmed by this view now its a society issue. Rebel wisdom did some interesting content about it on youtube, they called it conspirituality. 

I like Russel Brand as well but i think hes leaned a lot into this control, elite type rhetoric, hes not necessarily wrong but i think he fails to see the whole picture. 

[WaterDroplet--00]

@Thetruthseeker I have to say I have definitely experienced something similar with the people around me. It seems to be a lot easier to talk to someone coming from a 'holistic health' perspective where they believe the vaccine in unnatural or toxic, or that it is going to prevent spiritual experiences, then it is talking to someone who has subscribed to the more full-blown anti-vax conspiracy theories. Try not to give up on your friends if you think they're open enough to understanding the necessity and importance of the covid-vaccine. 

Trust me, I know it's very tiring to hear ridiculous covid-spiracies all the time. My parents are convinced that I'm committing suicide by getting vaccinated so as you can imagine there's a lot of tension. One thing that really helps when you're dealing with people like that is just knowing that they are really suffering, filled with fear and stress, misunderstanding and false information. Be a little playful when you talk about the vaccine, take some of the edge off it can really cause people to open up when they know that it's a calm and low-tension environment to discuss their fears. As oppose to say, getting angry at them and pointing out all the places that there's something wrong with their reasoning etc. it can really help I find. 

[Leo Gura]

Stage Green has many such anti-corpo, anti-vax, all-natural lifestyle ideas.

There is plenty of delusion within stage Green.

People tend to think stage Green is supposed to be perfect. Well, it ain't. Surprise!

[Girzo]

@Thetruthseeker That's why they are Green and not Yellow, hah. I don't know of any stage Yellow person who's anti-vaxxer, at some point in your cognitive development such notions start to seem stupid.

The thing is, you can be Green with a terrible epistemology. Like all the stuff with crystals, astrology, etc., it's 90% bullshit, and when you start to ask people for reasons why they adopt these believes you can get really scared. I have a female friend who does yoga, some full-moon prayers and stuff like that and... oh man, the way she makes sense out of the world, it terrifies me.

I lack words to describe what is scary about it, but it's like she lacks some mental tools to distinguish what's worthwhile of trust and what's not. She also holds strong belief on topics she has no idea about and has no willingness to learn about them. It's not dogmatism per se, but some stage Green version of it.

[Gennadiy1981]

15 hours ago, Thetruthseeker said:

I thought I was stage green and a lot of my friends were too. But most of them are anti vaxxers. would this be expected for stage green? 
 

they’re all listening to Russel brand and saying how ‘it’s all profit and control’ etc from the elites, like bill gates.

Most of my friends are ‘spiritual’ people doing yoga, Ayauasca, cacao ceremonies etc. But they’ve really resorted to all going against getting a vaccine 
 

it’s difficult for me because they’re nice people, but I’m getting tired of what to say when they post about it and talk about it all the time 

ps, I’ve had my vaccine. Not trying to spread anything false info here.  Just feeling confused why how many of my friends feel this way and it’s becoming increasingly difficult to stay friends and have a conversation with them 
 

You have to understand that many people are against this particular vaccine is because it was very rushed and has lack of science on it. I personally stay away from this vaccine and I try to outtalk my love ones, again because of lack of scientific evidence and CDC VAERS report, I see many injuries being recorded. Besides if this vaccine was so perfect, how come it is not licensed? I am not into conspiracy but believer of science and so far science did not prove that this vaccine is either safe or effective. If you are really interested in uncensored science of it, would recommend to check out TheHighwire.com.

[hoodrow trillson]

1 hour ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

You have to understand that many people are against this particular vaccine is because it was very rushed and has lack of science on it. I personally stay away from this vaccine and I try to outtalk my love ones, again because of lack of scientific evidence and CDC VAERS report, I see many injuries being recorded. Besides if this vaccine was so perfect, how come it is not licensed? I am not into conspiracy but believer of science and so far science did not prove that this vaccine is either safe or effective. If you are really interested in uncensored science of it, would recommend to check out TheHighwire.com.

Because it was either these emergency vaccines or full on economic/global collapse and the collapse of the Western world due to the implications of the COVID-19 virus hitting virtually every avenue of prosperity of the USA.  It already has been a shit show but it would’ve been FAR FAR worse than what happened—even with 500,000+ dead.  A few side effects out of millions of shots vs a full blown economic collapse and catastrophe?  Hmmm, easy call.

It was rushed because it was desperately needed.  This wasn’t like Ebola, MERS, or SARS.  This one had scientists saying ‘oh shit’.
 

Because of these vaccines; things are actually finally starting to go back to some resemblance of normalcy in the USA.  Just like how Australia managed to get back to normal last year.

You gotta pick your poison in life or you’ll get left behind.

[BadHippie]

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That's why they are Green and not Yellow, hah. I don't know of any stage Yellow person who's anti-vaxxer, at some point in your cognitive development such notions start to seem stupid.

This is so biased. I know a lot of people who are yellow and don´t want to take this particular vaccine, I even know some who are completely against vaccines as they use a different medical model, where it doesn´t make sense to vaccinate oneself. 

 

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I thought I was stage green and a lot of my friends were too. But most of them are anti vaxxers. would this be expected for stage green? 

It all depends on the information you get, your sensemaking, and what you want to believe in. There´s also a lot of herd-mentality and virtue-signaling going on with taking the vaccine (people feeling moraly superior for taking the vaccine).

What I learned in my time as an "evil" conspiracy-theorist is that there aren´t any believes that are specific to a certain stage. You can think Trump is super evil, while being green-yellowish, but there are also people saying trump would be the better choice between biden and trump, who are also green-yellowish. 

 

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it’s difficult for me because they’re nice people, but I’m getting tired of what to say when they post about it and talk about it all the time 

Maybe it´s time for you to move on? Or maybe instead of getting tired of it, try to really understand where they come from. At least that what friendship is about imo, trying to understand each other, growing together as people, having experiences that aren´t possible alone etc. etc.

There is certainly compelling evidence out there to support certain theories, which are framed as "conspiracy-theory". 

I feel like a lot of people are taking the vaccine because of false-assumptions like: "The vaccine is the only way to end the pandemic", "COVID-19 is super dangerous" or "I want to live a normal life again". Listen to yourself when you have these assumptions. Where do they come from? Did I give my sensemaking away to some authority? Do I fear getting COVID? What are the odds of me surviving when I get COVID? How does this new technology work?

Also try to understand why so many people aren´t taking the vaccine. Sure it´s easy to say they are all stupid conspiracy-theorist, right-wing, egoistic-people, but that´s just being to lazy to do sensemaking.

"If there are whole chunks of populations that you only have pejorative strawman versions of, where you can't explain why they think what they think without making them dumb or bad, you should be dubious of your own modeling." - Daniel Schmachtenberger

 

[Consept]

@BadHippie I'm not necessarily saying you but I think what the op is talking about in terms of their friends is that there's a dogmatic anti-science, pro-everything natural, anti-medical establishment, anti-government perspective. They going having these strong bias' and if they do research its just to back up their original beliefs.

Now this isn't to say some of their beliefs aren't true, because they will be and some of their narratives might be sling the right lines, but what makes the distinction between yellow and green is that yellow would agree with some of greens points but will also incorporate scientific perspectives or any other perspective that has value. Green can be anti-vaccine but yellow wouldn't really be anti anything, it would look at the whole picture and come to a conclusion, actively looking for where they could be biased and factoring that in. Green is not really aware of this pro-nature, anti-science bias, they just believe their perspective is truth and everyone else is misguided, which is normal for dogma. 

[mandyjw]

I think that usually the repetitive arguments and conversations come from when someone is feeling insecurity about their decision in some way. Learn to steer the conversation to what you DO want to talk about and you'll enjoy all your friendships and relationships a lot more. 

[Opo]

2 hours ago, BadHippie said:

You can think Trump is super evil, while being green-yellowish, but there are also people saying trump would be the better choice between biden and trump, who are also green-yellowish. 

If you believe this you don't understand spiral dynamics. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Opo

[Thetruthseeker]

@mandyjw I agree. Trust me, I don’t bring it up… they do. Posting about it on social everyday. 
And there’s literally no talking to them either. 
maybe I would have been the same but maybe I’ve just got a bit of yellow in me so I can see the bigger picture and not get too lost in conspiracies 

[BadHippie]

@Consept

I personally think you are making a wrong assumption there. I don´t think yellow can´t be anti anything, yellow people can be "anti", but won´t be emotional and/or dogmatic about it. 

They simply see the world more clearly and are better at systems-thinking than the earlier stages. They can still see "wrong" in certain systems and the way the world works. Check out Daniel Schmachtenberger for example. He see´s the problems in the world, simply in a more "rational" and "scientific" way, yet he still has values and principles he follows. 

Also personally I think yellow people tend to be against mandatory vaccination, as they see the problems with that system and are also better at reading / evaluating studies and incorporating different perspectives. 

 

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If you believe this you don't understand spiral dynamics. 

By being this fast with assumptions you are unable to understand it on a more nuanced level

Edited May 30, 2021 by BadHippie

[BadHippie]

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I think that usually the repetitive arguments and conversations come from when someone is feeling insecurity about their decision in some way. Learn to steer the conversation to what you DO want to talk about and you'll enjoy all your friendships and relationships a lot more. 

There aren´t any arguments unsaid anymore on both sides. It´s simply a question of understand both sides and where they come from (biases, values, principles). 

"Arguing that anti-maskers simply need more scientific literacy is to characterize their approach as uninformed and inexplicably extreme. This study shows the opposite: users in these communities are deeply invested in forms of critique and knowledge production that they recognize as markers of scientific expertise. If anything, anti-mask science has extended the traditional tools of data analysis by taking up the theoretical mantle of recent critical studies of visualization." 
From a study of the MIT - https://arxiv.org/pdf/2101.07993.pdf

 

[Consept]

38 minutes ago, BadHippie said:

I personally think you are making a wrong assumption there. I don´t think yellow can´t be anti anything, yellow people can be "anti", but won´t be emotional and/or dogmatic about it. 

Yes I agree, there won't be an emotional or dogmatic response but there could be a conclusion, however they are also open to new information. Also 'anti' implies an emotional response which is why I said they wouldn't be anti anything, they just may not agree with certain things or have different conclusions. 

The people I've seen online and otherwise who are anti-vaxx or even vaccine hesitant, are usually very passionate and emotional about their beliefs, whereas the scientists, epidemiologists and even intellectual thinkers are not really the same way about taking the vaccine even if they believe you should take it, even the average person who takes the vaccine is not really passionate about it, they just do it as they think its the best for society. When you get anti-vaxx protests you won't see people on the other side who are pro-vaxx protesting as well, with contentious issues where people have contradicting beliefs you would always get this but it's not the case here. 

[BadHippie]

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The people I've seen online and otherwise who are anti-vaxx or even vaccine hesitant, are usually very passionate and emotional about their beliefs, whereas the scientists, epidemiologists and even intellectual thinkers are not really the same way about taking the vaccine even if they believe you should take it, even the average person who takes the vaccine is not really passionate about it, they just do it as they think its the best for society. When you get anti-vaxx protests you won't see people on the other side who are pro-vaxx protesting as well, with contentious issues where people have contradicting beliefs you would always get this but it's not the case here.

Yeah, but it´s easy to understand why. Imagine believing the vaccine will kill and/or can control the minds of the people who get themselves vaccinated. And then also imagine people you love are doing it... Like even I would try everything to make someone I love stop doing stuff I think will hurt him, e.g. if my mother had cancer and she wants to do a chemo-therapy... I would try everything I can to make her change her mind on her own. 

The problem is, by being emotional, people tend to assume you did bad sensemaking, which isn´t necessarily the case. Sometimes it can even help to be emotional to reach certain people. Some people are just more emotional than others, that still doesn´t say anything about the information they have. Then there are scientists, who are almost without emotions, but that still doesn´t mean the science done had good epistemology.

From my personal experience I concluded that I don´t need and want the vaccine. I have nothing against people who want the vaccine, let them do it if they feel the need to. But I don´t like anyone telling me what is best for me. The same way Leo says veganism isn´t for him. Who´s there to tell him that veganism is for him? It´s his choice, if he concluded that his body needs meat. The same goes for vaccines, who´s there to tell me that vaccines are good for me and my body (maybe my body works differently). As Leo said: Veganism doesn´t work for everyone. The same way that vaccines don´t work for everyone. 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by BadHippie

[Consept]

20 minutes ago, BadHippie said:

Yeah, but it´s easy to understand why. Imagine believing the vaccine will kill and/or can control the minds of the people who get themselves vaccinated. And then also imagine people you love are doing it... Like even I would try everything to make someone I love stop doing stuff I think will hurt him, e.g. if my mother had cancer and she wants to do a chemo-therapy... I would try everything I can to make her change her mind on her own. 

Everyone that is emotional about a strong, dogmatic, belief feels this way. For example religious people have felt like this through history, if we look at modern day isis suicide bombers, they truly believe they are doing Gods work and saving people. This is an extreme example but the point is any belief system is going to believe that they are right and everyone else is wrong and when you take that stance it naturally follows that you would want to prevent those you love from going to hell or doing the wrong thing. This would be the obvious trajectory of such a belief which goes to show the dogma involved, in that theyre so sure they are willing to pull others into it. I dont agree with everything about science and it can also be dogmatic, but at the very least they will rarely say we are 100% sure about something, theyll just say this is what the evidence shows, in theory they will also take on new evidence and have an overall scientific consensus about what can be said to be 'scientific fact'. This is not the case with religion or other dogmatic beliefs, hence the emotional responses. 

28 minutes ago, BadHippie said:

The problem is, by being emotional, people tend to assume you did bad sensemaking, which isn´t necessarily the case. Sometimes it can even help to be emotional to reach certain people. Some people are just more emotional than others, that still doesn´t say anything about the information they have. Then there are scientists, who are almost without emotions, but that still doesn´t mean the science done had good epistemology.

This is true on both sides, you can get bad science and you can get people emotional being written off. But again the emotions come from having a belief. If you said 'i think Leo is 30' you wouldnt really care if someone else said hes 35, you may want to know which is true and then you would do further research, but either way you wouldnt be emotional about it because it doesnt have much bearing on you and youre not attached to the outcome of it. However if for whatever reason you felt certain he was 30 and it was important to you, those that then said hes 35 would be seen as enemies or at the very least wrong, you would definitely get emotional about it as you would feel attacked or not understood, you may even start questioning how we measure age or something like that.

As i said many people are not necessarily attached emotionally to taking a vaccine, whereas people who are against it are. Pro-trump and anti trump was different in that the argument was emotional on both sides, the vaccine issue is more anti-vaxx bumping up against the scientific establishment rather than people on the other side. 

36 minutes ago, BadHippie said:

From my personal experience I concluded that I don´t need and want the vaccine. I have nothing against people who want the vaccine, let them do it if they feel the need to. But I don´t like anyone telling me what is best for me. The same way Leo says veganism isn´t for him. Who´s there to tell him that veganism is for him? It´s his choice, if he concluded that his body needs meat. The same goes for vaccines, who´s there to tell me that vaccines are good for me and my body (maybe my body works differently). As Leo said: Veganism doesn´t work for everyone. The same way that vaccines don´t work for everyone. 

The paper you posted was quite interesting in that it said that science is falling behind in terms of the communication to the public, anti-vaxxers are getting better at visually showing their points. It also talks about how people are now taking science is seen by anti-maskers in this case, as an individual thing that they do and have autonomy over and is no longer seen by them as something with a scientific consensus and using the current scientific method. Which is an interesting way to look at it, so essentially its not even a case of anti-vax or not its more a thing of do you trust the scientific method and those that have studied these things for years or do you trust in your own ability to go through all these scientific journals and come to a conclusion off your own back. One thing i have noticed is that those that dont trust the scientific method always start off with an anti-science leaning, they also tend to have dogmatic beliefs whether it be vaccines or whatever. Personally i have no problem with the challenging of science, you should always question it, but you also have to appreciate where its good points are and how it can be useful. 

 

[Roy]

I was talking to a stage green anti-vaxxer chick on tinder last night, which I screen captured the conversation it would have been perfect for this thread lol.

She was going on about awareness, consciousness, and awakening, while judging the hell out of me like 2 messages in when I barely said anything 

Glad I dodged that bullet, she didn't seem to pass the peanut gallery vibe check.

[Thetruthseeker]

@Roy I want the screen shots! Lol ? 

[Opo]

3 hours ago, BadHippie said:

@ConseptBy being this fast with assumptions you are unable to understand it on a more nuanced level

By assuming that I'm assuming you're unable to understand that I'm only pretending to be retarded.