How to develop Machiavellian traits?

[Preety_India]

I'm really bad at this and I don't see a direction to guide me.

I know this is a very broad question, there's no other way to word it.

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Preety_India

[mivafofa]

why would you want to develop such traits..? 

[Preety_India]

@mivafofa it helps with survival.

 

I'm usually too soft and I lack ruthlessness.

 

[Preety_India]

@dflores321 how to be selfish?

I've been programmed to always think first about others.

It's tough unlearn years of conditioning in school and home

 

No I don't want to hurt anyone. But I don't want to get hurt anymore.

 

[mivafofa]

oh okk, in that case I think learning how to hit below the belt is a very useful one and quite challenging if you're always used to be the bigger person.  I'm myself working on it.  You make sure to you use when someone does it to you instead of being the bigger person everyone teaches you to be

[BipolarGrowth]

Find ways to strengthen the ego. 

[lmfao]

@Preety_India Thick Face Black Heart is a self-improvement read for what you're concerned about. It's on the book-list. It's a lesson in ruthlessness. It's a very good recommendation, honestly.

I would like to say that becoming ruthless doesn't mean you have to become "machiavellian". However you can lump together these things if you want. 


When it comes to (negotiating with)/handling other people. A skill which is good is being able to understand what their motivations are, what their goals are and their way of reacting to things. What do they like most, what do they dislike most. And in this way you can make a good "calculated" move. 

It's easy to understand these things about a person, the ethics come is in how you use this information. You can use the information to protect yourself and get good outcomes. 

So, learn how to negotiate for yourself. 

-- 
I don't know your situation, but I sometimes ended up in situations of "retaliation" vs "letting go". Sometimes I've retaliated, but sometimes I let go. It's about knowing when to do which. There's a time for both. 

For example, I have someone who really pissed me off {completed unrelated to anything on this forum}. I understand them enough to know the perfect way to get revenge on them. I knew my plan was genius. I still have everything set up ready to execute the plan. 

But I decided not to go ahead with it. Not because I cared about the other person, but because I don't want my mental state to be negative like that, and I let go.

However, there may be a day I decide to take revenge anyway. But, I'm leaning towards letting it go and have no desire for revenge. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by lmfao

[mivafofa]

[Disclaimer - this is an advice only intended for someone who has tendency to be in the extreme spectrum of being soft, not good to a normal regulated person! Read everything before applying!]

@Preety_India Ok so basically you have to show that being the bigger person and not engaging a fight is a choice.  Not just your default mode that you're unable to deviate from. Otherwise, they will see and treat you like a doormat and prey upon you like lions. Knowing that you only play high cards, they will use this opportunity to hit you under the belt with low cards 'cause you've simply got no defense down there.  So how to show this is a choice and you've got options? This is easier said than done, but basically you gotta show you can go both ways - how to be clean and how to fight in the mud. Only then, they will respect you 'cause they can't mess with you.  In the language of spiral dynamics, you could say that red stage respects power, strength and dominance. So you have to communicate in their language.  Kindness and integrity is irreverent and won't save you here.  I mean I guess you already know all that, that's why you're asking how. Ok so these are some of below belt hits that you can use that I've been studying, and I warn you ahead, these are extremely dirty methods that might grind your gears:

1.  Use something they have confided in you against them - So they might have told you a family secret, or something they have done they're embarrassed about, maybe smthg they wish would happen for them but it never did.  Basically, they've opened up their heart to you at some point, and what you do with that info? You bring that up onto the table and stab them right in the heart.
2.  Attack a disability or a deficiency in them. Something they see as an impairment and that they cannot change it no matter what. It's the kicking the cane off their hands and laugh at them falling type of method. 
3. Target an unspoken insecurity - This one comes from your own observation.  They're so insecure about something that they won't even talk about it.  But you can see it... and usually you would walk around eggshell to make sure to not scratch that sensitive part of them.  But now, this is the time you expose it all and roast the shit out of them.
4. Attack an open-wound. You use their trauma and PTSD against them... (ex: A mother who has lost her infant. something dear was lost and that wound will never heal, that's why it remains open)  This is like adding acid to a burned survivor. 

I can't stress enough how important it is that you make sure you use these ONLY when it's absolutely necessary: for self-defense. And ONLY when they strike first. Words can cut deep and traumatize people. But also make sure not to hesitate when the moment arises. If you see them using one of these methods and they punch you dirty down there, what you do is you pull out the sniper gun and splatter their guts away (metaphorically speaking)

Edited May 28, 2021 by mivafofa

[Proserpina]

4 hours ago, mivafofa said:

[Disclaimer - this is an advice only intended for someone who has tendency to be in the extreme spectrum of being soft, not good to a normal regulated person! Read everything before applying!]

@Preety_India Ok so basically you have to show that being the bigger person and not engaging a fight is a choice.  Not just your default mode that you're unable to deviate from. Otherwise, they will see and treat you like a doormat and prey upon you like lions. Knowing that you only play high cards, they will use this opportunity to hit you under the belt with low cards 'cause you've simply got no defense down there.  So how to show this is a choice and you've got options? This is easier said than done, but basically you gotta show you can go both ways - how to be clean and how to fight in the mud. Only then, they will respect you 'cause they can't mess with you.  In the language of spiral dynamics, you could say that red stage respects power, strength and dominance. So you have to communicate in their language.  Kindness and integrity is irreverent and won't save you here.  I mean I guess you already know all that, that's why you're asking how. Ok so these are some of below belt hits that you can use that I've been studying, and I warn you ahead, these are extremely dirty methods that might grind your gears:

1.  Use something they have confided in you against them - So they might have told you a family secret, or something they have done they're embarrassed about, maybe smthg they wish would happen for them but it never did.  Basically, they've opened up their heart to you at some point, and what you do with that info? You bring that up onto the table and stab them right in the heart.
2.  Attack a disability or a deficiency in them. Something they see as an impairment and that they cannot change it no matter what. It's the kicking the cane off their hands and laugh at them falling type of method. 
3. Target an unspoken insecurity - This one comes from your own observation.  They're so insecure about something that they won't even talk about it.  But you can see it... and usually you would walk around eggshell to make sure to not scratch that sensitive part of them.  But now, this is the time you expose it all and roast the shit out of them.
4. Attack an open-wound. You use their trauma and PTSD against them... (ex: A mother who has lost her infant. something dear was lost and that wound will never heal, that's why it remains open)  This is like adding acid to a burned survivor. 

I can't stress enough how important it is that you make sure you use these ONLY when it's absolutely necessary: for self-defense. And ONLY when they strike first. Words can cut deep and traumatize people. But also make sure not to hesitate when the moment arises. If you see them using one of these methods and they punch you dirty down there, what you do is you pull out the sniper gun and splatter their guts away (metaphorically speaking)

Haha. Gold.

A vase to the head works well too.

[asifarahim]

@Preety_India u can check illmitable men.it is the most hardcore blog on machiavellianism.also start reading robert greene books. It take a lifetime to fully master it.

Go in the order 

Laws of human nature>>33 strategies of war >>>48 laws of power. Also check the prince by niccolo machiavelli. These are the must read books. Check out all of illmitable men content.

[Preety_India]

14 hours ago, mivafofa said:

[Disclaimer - this is an advice only intended for someone who has tendency to be in the extreme spectrum of being soft, not good to a normal regulated person! Read everything before applying!]

@Preety_India Ok so basically you have to show that being the bigger person and not engaging a fight is a choice.  Not just your default mode that you're unable to deviate from. Otherwise, they will see and treat you like a doormat and prey upon you like lions. Knowing that you only play high cards, they will use this opportunity to hit you under the belt with low cards 'cause you've simply got no defense down there.  So how to show this is a choice and you've got options? This is easier said than done, but basically you gotta show you can go both ways - how to be clean and how to fight in the mud. Only then, they will respect you 'cause they can't mess with you.  In the language of spiral dynamics, you could say that red stage respects power, strength and dominance. So you have to communicate in their language.  Kindness and integrity is irreverent and won't save you here.  I mean I guess you already know all that, that's why you're asking how. Ok so these are some of below belt hits that you can use that I've been studying, and I warn you ahead, these are extremely dirty methods that might grind your gears:

1.  Use something they have confided in you against them - So they might have told you a family secret, or something they have done they're embarrassed about, maybe smthg they wish would happen for them but it never did.  Basically, they've opened up their heart to you at some point, and what you do with that info? You bring that up onto the table and stab them right in the heart.
2.  Attack a disability or a deficiency in them. Something they see as an impairment and that they cannot change it no matter what. It's the kicking the cane off their hands and laugh at them falling type of method. 
3. Target an unspoken insecurity - This one comes from your own observation.  They're so insecure about something that they won't even talk about it.  But you can see it... and usually you would walk around eggshell to make sure to not scratch that sensitive part of them.  But now, this is the time you expose it all and roast the shit out of them.
4. Attack an open-wound. You use their trauma and PTSD against them... (ex: A mother who has lost her infant. something dear was lost and that wound will never heal, that's why it remains open)  This is like adding acid to a burned survivor. 

I can't stress enough how important it is that you make sure you use these ONLY when it's absolutely necessary: for self-defense. And ONLY when they strike first. Words can cut deep and traumatize people. But also make sure not to hesitate when the moment arises. If you see them using one of these methods and they punch you dirty down there, what you do is you pull out the sniper gun and splatter their guts away (metaphorically speaking)

That was very detailed 

 Thank you. 

[tatsumaru]

Personally I feel that if you have transcended selfishness you are actually superior to most. Selfishness arises out of ignorance and is why people hurt you in the first place. You can only be selfish if you identify with something that you are not. While it's good to protect yourself from parasites be careful not to become cynical an closed off. You are just a butterfly in a world of caterpillars and most can't appreciate you for they can't see beyond their limitations. Realizing that other people's attempts to hurt you are rooted in ignorance can be quite empowering and may even make you feel sorry for them when you realize how far they are from actual happiness.
My intuition says that you might resonate with the feminine deity Vajrayogini who said: “I am not suited to polite society, to social striving, upward mobility, and making good impressions. I am radically honest, sensitive, brilliant, and blunt. I hold up a mirror to the best and worst facets of human life.”
Don't let them drag you back into their nonsense, instead you bring light to humankind as it needs you desperately.

[Nightwise]

23 hours ago, Preety_India said:

@dflores321 how to be selfish?

I've been programmed to always think first about others.

It's tough unlearn years of conditioning in school and home

 

No I don't want to hurt anyone. But I don't want to get hurt anymore.

 

Many people think being 'selfish' is a no-no word. Something that's bad, something that's not spiritual.

Also, people often think that being selfish means hurting others. It may happen that other people get triggered and thereby they basically hurt themselves, but that's not your fault as long as your intentions are pure and that your intention is not to hurt anyone. It is perfectly possible to be selfish yet being compassionate and at the very least be aware and caring towards the feelings of others. Sometimes, however, you will have to do certain things that others may not like but which ultimately is for the better.

In reality, existence is an interplay of giving and taking/receiving. It's just that you make sure that when you take or receive you generally want to try to make it a win-win situation. Mind you, something being a win-win situation might not look like a win-win situation. For instance, if you're in a phase where you really want to develop a sense of autonomy where you want to listen to what feels right to you, where you want to protect your boundaries, and where you want to learn how to do what YOU want, you might for instance simply refuse to do certain tasks other people ask from you if this strains you too much or takes too much energy for you. What allows you to be able to justify that for yourself is to see how important it is for you to learn to really listen to yourself an protect yourself, and to see that what you're doing is for the greater good; especially if other people asking you to do certain things is just something they do habitually, but which wouldn't really hurt them if they did it themselves.

Take my own example; it's maybe a bit extreme and I'm certainly not saying this is the ideal life or even the ideal outlook, but there are important lessons to be learned from this:

I went through a phase where, living with my parents, I refused to listen to anything they told me I should do. I didn't clean up anything, I didn't want to study so I didn't, I didn't want to do any work; All I did was to really be in my room, read spiritual literature, to contemplate a lot and think about life, to entertain myself with Youtube video's and start getting some enjoyment in my life, and to do video gaming. Eventually I also decided not to eat with them at the dinner table anymore, because every time there was dinner there would be this tension between us and I could just sense the tension, and sometimes my parents would indeed start saying I should do certain things or I should change, which I really didn't want to do, so eventually I started to avoid them even there. 

All of this was to protect myself from the outside world and its demands and expectations. I wanted to shape and create a life that I wanted, that I saw fit, not what other people wanted me to do or become. I wanted to live towards the vision that I saw for myself. I understood that I was triggering people but I had not intention to harm anybody. In fact, the anger that people towards me was not because I was doing something to them, it is because I was not doing the things they wanted me to do. I failed their expectations but I wasn't actively trying to bother anyone. In fact, I wanted to keep things as much to myself as possible, to be as independent as possible. I understood that other people being triggered and angry wasn't necessarily my fault, but that this was a part of themselves that they were responsible for, not me. Whatever emotions are yours, you are responsible for them, not the other, and the same applied to them, I knew. But that also means you are responsible for the conflict and distress you will come to feel if others get triggered by you

And all of this I understood was important because I was important. I don't mean that in some egoic comparative sense, that I am superior and better than others. That's not what I mean. I mean that I knew that there was great potential within me to be a great force of love, light and Goodness to the world, and that it was my time to cocoon, to form my shield and go through an inner transformation comparable to when a caterpillar becomes a cocoon to start forming a butterfly. A cocoon needs a strong protective shield and it needs to a certain degree hide from the world in order to fully focus on its transformation, to fully focus its energies on its inner journey.

Too little people take full ownership over their lives. Too little people are willing to take the steering wheel and boat their ship, listening to their inner voice to go into the direction that that inner voice is telling them to go, even if the whole world including their social conditioning is telling them otherwise.

I'm not saying that saying f*** it to the world and being as selfishly as possible is the ultimate solution. We do however grow impartially, so taking some years to really focus on yourself, to follow your intuition, your vision and your desires certainly isn't a bad thing. It's the growing of the roots. Learning how to set boundaries means you're creating a shield for your energetical space (your aura, you could say), and now that this aura is protected you have the chance to really work on it without constantly worrying about it being affected from interference from the outside world, which is distracting and disregulating you.

Learning how to fend for yourself, how to protect your energetical space and following your intuition, gives you a great sense of grounding and confidence. You get to know who you are and what you want, and you start to become clear about what it is that serves you, and what it is that does not serve you, and you will be able to communicate this very clearly and directly to others. You know who you are and what you want, and therefore it is not difficult and therefore it is not difficult to say NO to someone or something if you know that that is not going to serve you in the greater good.

Mind you, there is mature selfishness and immature selfishness. Be very conscious about that distinction here.

Immature selfishness means you're blaming others for your own situation, feelings and shortcomings. You do not take responsibility and as far as you are concerned the whole world is at fault except yourself.

Mature selfishness sees that these things are your responsibility, and that you are responsible for solving them, and that you're willing to set boundaries to first close off interference from the outside world and then correct these situations, feelings and shortcomings by taking responsibility for them and working with them.

Immature selfishness refuses to do certain things for others because one feels offended by someone else trying to burden them with something, and refuses to cooperate out of anger, hatred or bitterness. It is much more like a middle-finger approach.

Mature selfishness may also refuse to cooperate or agree with requests or demands, but here one does not refuse to do such things out of anger or bitterness, but because one is conscious that one wants to utilize their time, energy and resources for things that one sees to be more valuable at that point for their psychological, energetical or spiritual development. One has a vision for themselves which is a top priority, and many things that are not in alignment with that vision have to be left aside, at least for the time being. On top of that, things that are being asked or demanded from the outside world may also simply be experienced as very stressful, draining or demanding and here one realizes that doing things from this negative place is ultimately not going to do anyone any good, not in the big picture at least.

In a nutshell, immature selfishness is about blame and bitterness, mature selfishness is about self-protection, ownership and authenticity

To come in better contact with this capacity of self-governance or ownership of your life, just start asking yourself questions as to why it is or as to why it could be important. What purpose does selfishness fulfill? What does it give me? What does it allow me to do? What do I sacrifice for not protecting my own boundaries? How, in the big picture, can me being selfish also serve others in the long-term or even short-term? (Very important question!) How can me developing these qualities ultimately serve the greater good? (because it certainly can and does).
Contemplate these questions, and really go deeply into it. Then you will start to see that there is much more depth and validity to selfishness than you would have previously imagined.

Also, if you're maybe afraid to make changes to take more ownership over the direction of your life, ask yourself these questions: What am I willing to make sacrifices for? If I don't take certain risks or make certain sacrifices, is the life I will have then going to be worth it? Is the bad really going to outweigh the good that could come from this?

If you have any more personal questions or comments, you are free to send me a private message 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Nightwise

[Preety_India]

@Nightwise it will take some time to read it thoroughly. Please don't delete it and I'll definitely get back to you. 

Thank you so much for the valuable response. 

Appreciated. 

[mivafofa]

5 hours ago, tatsumaru said:

Personally I feel that if you have transcended selfishness you are actually superior to most. Selfishness arises out of ignorance and is why people hurt you in the first place. You can only be selfish if you identify with something that you are not. While it's good to protect yourself from parasites be careful not to become cynical an closed off. You are just a butterfly in a world of caterpillars and most can't appreciate you for they can't see beyond their limitations. Realizing that other people's attempts to hurt you are rooted in ignorance can be quite empowering and may even make you feel sorry for them when you realize how far they are from actual happiness.
My intuition says that you might resonate with the feminine deity Vajrayogini who said: “I am not suited to polite society, to social striving, upward mobility, and making good impressions. I am radically honest, sensitive, brilliant, and blunt. I hold up a mirror to the best and worst facets of human life.”
Don't let them drag you back into their nonsense, instead you bring light to humankind as it needs you desperately.

This type of advice is very good for normal people, but can be damn damaging for people like Preety and I who have been raised in abusive environment where our sense of boundaries were stripped away from us. Which in turned has caused more traumatic events to follow because it's already ingrained in us to be selfless, to please and empathize with selfish people.  Advices like these encourage us to drown more into our passive self, keeping our hands clean, calling for silence & walk away, trivialization of the situation, and a non-confrontational approach. This is the exact opposite of what is needed for our situation, because we're too far in the softy spectrum. We need to build claws and fangs. Just because we get them doesn't mean we get cynical and closed off.  In fact, we would get more closed off now because of the fear to be hurt again and not knowing how to deal with confrontation. They're retractable claws to put in our tool box. Normal people usually have them already, in which case your advice would be fitting. 

Anyway in the end, it all boils down to learn how to build healthy boundaries. 

@Nightwise that was an interesting read. thx

[Human Mint]

@Nightwise that's a very nice distinction

[tatsumaru]

56 minutes ago, mivafofa said:

This type of advice is very good for normal people, but can be damn damaging for people like Preety and I who have been raised in abusive environment where our sense of boundaries were stripped away from us. Which in turned has caused more traumatic events to follow because it's already ingrained in us to be selfless, to please and empathize with selfish people.  Advices like these encourage us to drown more into our passive self, keeping our hands clean, calling for silence & walk away, trivialization of the situation, and a non-confrontational approach. This is the exact opposite of what is needed for our situation, because we're too far in the softy spectrum. We need to build claws and fangs. Just because we get them doesn't mean we get cynical and closed off.  In fact, we would get more closed off now because of the fear to be hurt again and not knowing how to deal with confrontation. They're retractable claws to put in our tool box. Normal people usually have them already, in which case your advice would be fitting. 

Anyway in the end, it all boils down to learn how to build healthy boundaries. 

@Nightwise that was an interesting read. thx

This is not about any spectrums and isn't about surrendering to abuse either. It's about transcending the whole "us vs them" notion that only perpetuates the drama. Serial killers are usually abused as children or grow up in horrible environments, they have developed plenty of claws and fangs alright, is that what you consider healing? There's no such things as 'normal people' - there's truth and ignorance and it's not a spectrum. Also you seem to be conflating 'selflessness' with 'powerlessness' or some sort of 'learned helplessness' which isn't even remotely similar. Unlike Jesus I never said 'turn the other cheek', I said don't regress into primitive modes thinking you need to retaliate or start some witch hunt (which you are clearly suggesting with your sociopathic post about exploiting mom's traumas about their dead babies). It's one thing to defend yourself and another to develop claws and fangs - claws and fangs belong to predators. The solution is to understand what is going on, not to be building weaponry and going off to wars. The number one principle of self-defense and almost every martial art is to always try to escape and avoid confrontation first because that's the safest solution, fighting is only a last resort for when you are cornered and your life is on the line. And even when fighting you still need to have compassion for your attackers "for they know not what they do". You don't build a healthy society on claws and fangs.

Edited May 28, 2021 by tatsumaru

[mivafofa]

@tatsumaru if you really want to help someone, you first need to understand where they come from... And it's obvious you don't in this case... You see and understand the problem from your own perspective. Which is a very good perspective. I hope you keep it i love it. But it's not gonna help for this situation.

Btw i threw some disclaimers and warnings for my tips. Thx for not ignoring them. 

[Karmadhi]

I suffer with this too and it is really a pain in the ass. A piece of advice i can give you is to look at it in terms of your needs getting met. Your needs are a priority and always will be. Not meeting your needs will not result in you being more "selfless". It will result in you being more manipulative and having hidden agendas in everything you do. Often these manipulative actions will be unconsciousness and will not even seem like that to you. There is a great book called "no more Mr nice guy" and even though it is more catered to males, it generally helps all people pleasers. Personally i noticed some things i did from reading that book and how fucked up and selfish they were. If you cannot get your needs met, then you may not become a "selfish" devil that goes for what they want, instead you will become a "subtle" but often even worse devil that tries to get what they want while being unaware of it and thinking they are some selfless saint.

Now of course there is balance and nuance here. I am not saying to be an asshole or ruthless person in the traditional sense. Empathy and compassion are still needed. However what i think is even more important than those is integrity and pure kindness. Helping someone without giving a shit what they do, whether they are grateful or not. Becoming independent and self love are essential in reaching such a state.

I feel like i kinda covered all of personal development and jumped through like 10 topics however i hope it gives you some insights.

If you want more practical less woo-hoo tips they are:

1. Adopt paradigm that your needs come first most of the time (there are exceptions of course, nothing is absolute) and if your needs are not met it will result in you being even more selfish than before, it will just be unconscious selfishness most of the time. 

2. Read no more Mr nice guy and contemplate on it.

 

[Preety_India]

Machiavellian is not necessarily evil behavior all the time, sometimes it's just knowing how to compete and survive best in brutal environments where if you aren't brutal enough, you'll eventually be eliminated and your survival at risk. 

Machiavellian behavior helps with survival in following cases

• If you facing workplace harassment 
• If you are surrounded by people who bring you down
• If you're in hyper competitive survival environment 
• If you are in an environment with little compassion 
• If people are constantly breaking your boundaries 
• If others are being Machiavellian and extremely selfish with you and around you 
• If your trauma has caused you self esteem issues which are being exploited by people who are more powerful than you 
• If you are under authority that is very destructive 
• If you are trying to survive a stage Red culture 
• If your morals and ethics are constantly challenged 
• If you are having to deal with energy vultures and energy vampires