Question to Leo on Veganism @Leo Gura

[Twega]

10 hours ago, mivafofa said:

Believe it or not, even within the specie we are extremely different.  Smthg I eat everyday might just poison my neighbor and vice versa.   Even our taste and preferences in food differs massively despite being the same specie. Have you ever wondered why?  I sure did.  And I think the answer lies beyond just culture.

I know as a vegan, you might think our physiology is the same, our colon is 11-15 times longer than our body, our jaw can grind and chew like herbivores, and so on - so what gives?   Well, we are different than primates in that sense. If some aliens were to come on earth, take control and breed us, they wouldn't be able to feed us all the same food without having a third of us dying or suffering

@mivafofa  Yes, of course. I agree. That is why there are 20,000 species of edible plants and 400 species of edible mushrooms—all of them possessing unique qualities. Even the fiber is different from one plant to the next.

Yet you only have like 4 farm animals to choose from... Plants are more diverse than all the other organisms on earth.

[StarStruck]

 

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I have tried vegan and vegetarian and it simply does not give me sufficient energy.

You vegans don't seem to realize something: not all human genetics and bodies work on a vegan diet. That is an unquestioned assumption you hold.

Also, you misunderstand Love. Since God is Love, murder is Love too. You cannot use the fact of Love to justify any action, because every action is Love.

Your ancestors came from a cold climate and they depended on meat to survive. It is not strange you don't run on a vegan diet. It is like putting gasoline in a diesel engine. Some vegans know that their diet doesn't work. They are just too invested. Most of them face the music when their engine breaks down but it will be too late.

[tricksntraps]

A more meat based is way more healthy for your brain and your muscles, I feel 20 years younger ever since I ate more meat and can think much more clearly. When I dont eat meat I feel tired and low energy.

Vegan moms struggle to breastfeed as well as their babies require protein to grow,
absolute horrible diet in my opinion

High Protein diet with a bit of fibre so you dont get constipated is the best way to go

But, ultimately you have to try and test it for yourself to get the results






 

Edited May 27, 2021 by tricksntraps

[Windappreciator]

17 minutes ago, tricksntraps said:

A more meat based is way more healthy for your brain and your muscles, I feel 20 years younger ever since I ate more meat and can think much more clearly. When I dont eat meat I feel tired and low energy.

Vegan moms struggle to breastfeed as well as their babies require protein to grow,
absolute horrible diet in my opinion

High Protein diet with a bit of fibre so you dont get constipated is the best way to go

But, ultimately you have to try and test it for yourself to get the results






 

@Leo Gura You will keep this type of misinformation on the forum?

Edited May 27, 2021 by Windappreciator

[intotheblack]

16 minutes ago, tricksntraps said:

babies require protein to grow,

Human breast milk naturally has only about 1g of protein and about 7g of carbs.  
This was designed perfectly for baby human to grow. 

[mivafofa]

1 hour ago, Twega said:

@mivafofa  Yes, of course. I agree. That is why there are 20,000 species of edible plants and 400 species of edible mushrooms—all of them possessing unique qualities. Even the fiber is different from one plant to the next.

Yet you only have like 4 farm animals to choose from... Plants are more diverse than all the other organisms on earth.

We have only 4 to choose from?! Good gracious, my math is flying off the window. I guess if we don't count like every single mammal, bird and even reptile on this planet known to be a source of food depending which country you're from, not to mention the wide variety of sea creatures within fish, crustaceans, shellfish, molluscs, echinoderm, jellyfish, turnicates. That rounds up over millions of species. I guess if don't count that, that must make 4... 

 

Edit: ok jokes aside, i know what you mean, but there are nutrients in animals that is absorbed in the body in a way plants can never do. I know vegans refuse to acknowledge this, you like to think every nutrient found in animal product can be found in the plants kingdom. Well if that were true, then by that theory you could turn every carnivore into plant eaters. But you can't.  Because no amount of plant will supplement the complexity found in a single egg.

The same way no amount of animal product can supplement the complexity found in a broccoli.

Edited May 27, 2021 by mivafofa

[blueplasma]

2 hours ago, tricksntraps said:

A more meat based is way more healthy for your brain and your muscles, I feel 20 years younger ever since I ate more meat and can think much more clearly. When I dont eat meat I feel tired and low energy.

You should know that the jains in india have been vegetarian for centuries. I learned that they are the most successful community in india. They are like jews of india. So I don't think avoiding meat is bad for your brain.

[Twega]

3 hours ago, mivafofa said:

by that theory you could turn every carnivore into plant eaters.

What stretch of reasoning led you to extrapolate this conclusion from what I said?

Perhaps I didn't explain it well enough, I apologize. Let me reiterate my point more clearly.

All nutrients (including protein) originate from plants. Carnivores require a higher ratio of certain nutrients which are found in herbivorous animals, as well as some nutrients synthesized in the body of animals (like carnitine). This led them to develop highly specialized digestive systems that are adapted to eat those. You, me, and every human and primate on this planet are not carnivores. We definitely can eat meat and plants. But we are much less adapted to eat meat and way more adapted to eat plants.

An egg? More complex than plants? 

The unmapped chemical complexity of our diet

Read this. Plants are way more complex than a fucking egg lol.

Plants are literally chemical factories, they contain more compounds and even nutrients (especially when combined) than eggs.

 

Most people who don't do well on a vegan diet have pre-existing gut conditions, or they don't eat sea vegetables that contain iodine. Without Iodine, you are fucked. Even if you are vegan.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Twega

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Windappreciator said:

@Leo Gura You will keep this type of misinformation on the forum?

He is entitled to his opinions. I don't see obvious misinformation there. If you want to debunk him with facts, go ahead and cite them.

The internet is full of people who disagree vehemently about diet and I am not going to micromanage such disputes.

[Twega]

3 hours ago, tricksntraps said:

Vegan moms struggle to breastfeed as well as their babies require protein to grow,
absolute horrible diet in my opinion

I appreciate that you stated it is your opinion. I respect honesty.

If anyone is interested in actual research with blood tests done to assess health status.

Here is a new german Cohort study, there are also meta-analysis done if anyone is interested, let me know and I'll post them.

Nutrient Intake and Status of German Children and Adolescents Consuming Vegetarian, Vegan or Omnivore Diets: Results of the VeChi Youth Study

Conclusion: The results of the VeChi Youth Study confirms the position of several national nutrition or paediatric societies [68,69,70,71] that a vegetarian, including a vegan, diet can meet the recommended nutrient requirements in childhood and adolescence. However, due to the cross-sectional design, the VeChi Youth Study only provides a glimpse of plant-based diets and health in these age groups. Hence, follow-ups of our study sample are desirable to examine the long-term health impacts of vegetarian and vegan diets in children and adolescents, in particular with respect to bone health. Furthermore, other potential critical nutrients should be examined, e.g., intake and status of indispensable amino acids, long-chain n3-fatty acids, iodine and selenium. The results are not readily transferable to other, especially younger, age groups. Particularly for infants, special recommendations apply [72].

Edited May 27, 2021 by Twega

[Windappreciator]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

He is entitled to his opinions. I don't see obvious misinformation there. If you want to debunk him with facts, go ahead and cite them.

The internet is full of people who disagree vehemently about diet and I am not going to micromanage such disputes.

So what is your measure for determining which misinformation you leave and which you do not?

You seemed to be working happily against the pro trump and no vaccination people, but this is alright I suppose.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Windappreciator

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Windappreciator said:

So what is your measure for determining which misinformation you leave and which you do not?

The measure is obviously subjective.

Debates about nutriton are a huge grey area. Rather than crying about it to me, make a factual case for your view, if you can.

[Windappreciator]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The measure is obviously subjective.

Debates about nutriton are a huge grey area. Rather than crying about it to me, make a factual case for your view, if you can.

Yes, the measure is obviously subjektive and also confronting inconsistent.

And what would that accomplish? So I can tap myself on the shoulder? Do you make a factual case for everything common sense?

It is not the statement alone that is only problematic here, but the position from which one is coming from implied by how it was framed, but regardless.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Windappreciator

[mivafofa]

3 hours ago, Twega said:

An egg? More complex than plants? 

I didn't say that. Definitely not what I meant either lol.

 

I see you're pulling bunch of articles bias towards veganism there and there.  Honestly I read enough of those while I was vegan.  Anywhere on the internet you will come across articles that either tell you how plants or meat, oil, oatmeal or potato, etc is horrific to our health, or the complete opposite. Then later on some other articles that debunk them all, following another that debunk the debunks, it's a never ending cycle.  Your own bias towards whatever diet you're inclined to will just narrowly look for articles that back up whatever you want in nutrition, and you will easily find them nowadays, because literally everythg is healthy or detrimental to one human to another. 

So what do you trust in that case?  Yourself, your own experimentation. You try it as long as you can and feel the difference.  Your body doesn't lie, only your mind. What works for you might not work for another.  Can you accept this?  Also I didn't have any pre-existing gut condition or any health conditions before, that's a funny vegan propaganda you've been fed.

[Tanz]

Honestly the people that I have met that fully love the animal are the people involved with raising them and the chefs that cook them.  Michelin star chefs honor their ingredient both meat and vegetables and believe if they don't use it to make someone happy and create deeper human connection through dining, than they are not honoring the life of the animal, the farmer, and mother nature that nurtured it in existence.  

Take Gordan Ramsey for example, he inspires people, employs people all over the world, motivates young chefs to work hard and to cook and honor life a chefs way. everyone and everything has their way to express love, one isn't higher than the other 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Tanz

[Danioover9000]

@blueplasma

On 26/05/2021 at 4:37 PM, blueplasma said:

I am vegan myself I expected Leo to be a vegan, but found that he is not. If God is love and we are supposed to practice love and that is the purpose then why isn't Leo a vegan? We all know how cruel the meat industry is (go watch any of the slaughterhouse videos on YT).. plus all the environmental impact animal farming has... and the fact that we are not obligate omnivores or anything like that.

So my question to Leo, why aren't you a vegan?

   I think Leo already answered somewherw in the health sub forum, along the lines of ' I don't consider myself vegan morally, I'm into the health aspect. However, after getting SIBO, eating veggies and fruits feels like eating glass shards and drinking acid, so after many years of searching for the right medications, alternative health treatments, and experimenting on my diet, and fasting, I found the carnivore diet, and it works wonders. At the moment, gonna do several months of carnivore, and slowly introduce veggies and fruits,and eliminate those that trigger my symptoms. Sorry vegans.'. That's a basic summary of most of his posts to people complaining to him about why he gave up on a veggie diet, switching to an all meat diet, without considering the level of suffering he's going through with his SIBO.

[tricksntraps]

Taking action and experimenting is the only way to know for sure. 

Words, info and arguments dont do shit.


"Experience is the best teacher"









 

[Twega]

16 hours ago, mivafofa said:

see you're pulling bunch of articles

* Peer-reviewed papers from reputable journals, not articles. I definitely have a bias towards veganism, and you against it. This is why I try only to give data and not opinions. I am aware of bias, and thank you for reminding me, are you also aware of yours?

 

16 hours ago, mivafofa said:

hen later on some other articles that debunk them all, following another that debunk the debunks, it's a never ending cycle.  

 

This is one of the most common responses I get when I give data to someone. Instead of directly responding, they always make an appeal to the futility fallacy, "Yeah, well, there are other studies that say the opposite." Ignoring things like 1- Replication 2- Hierarchy of evidence 3- Propounderous of evidence.

16 hours ago, mivafofa said:

that's a funny vegan propaganda you've been fed.

 

As someone who studies nutritional biochemistry for a living. This is not propaganda I have been fed, it is something I observed by studying people's health. I do not know anything about you, so I can't say anything about whether you fall in that category or not. If people become sick by going vegan, that is something unusual and is a sign that something is wrong. You can not be vegan or even say that it didn't suit you well. But becoming sick and having brain fog from eating plants? That is a red flag. I can eat meat tomorrow if I wanted to I would feel fine (health biomarkers might show a different story though)

I am very familiar with the whole spectrum of data on nutritional science. I would like to see the data you claim that "debunks" mine. I'll wait.

Other than that, I wish you good health.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Twega

[BadHippie]

(Most of) you talk about veganism as it's a concept that's the same for everyone. 

I'm 99% "vegan", since 2 years now and my health is so good now, totally unbelievable. I don't get sick, I never have any problems with my organs etc. 

For me it´s more about treating my body with consciousness, not eating finished products, buying at places (from companies) that don´t use pesticides (e.g. glyphosate, which can make your body stop or slow down the natural-detox of heavy metals it does), keep an eye of how much sugar you intake, not eating more than I need (2 times a day is enough, you even have more energy that way, as your body doesn´t need that much energy to deplete of all the unnecessary stuff that was too much), doing yoga and sports, taking supplements sometimes (B12 and D3 mostly) etc. etc. 

To the guys who tried vegan and it didn't work? How was your vegan diet? Vegan diets can be healthy, but a lot of vegan simply think it's enough to not eat meat, while still buying the cheapest vegetables and finished products, which are full of shitty chemicals and pesticides... 

Did you guys ever asked yourself the question why veganism didn't work for you? And actually doing the research what could be the trigger for the symptoms you describe? Maybe your vegan diet was to one-sided, too many cheap vegetables with pesticides (which can hurt the gut flora). 

Honestly you just need to check how most of the meat is made, to say no to it... How can you guys actually support that? And eat that? 

Or do you guys really buy the good meat all of the time? 

 

Quote

I recall a news story about a baby who died in the custody of a vegan parent despite being breastfeed 

And I recall a news story of a baby of non-vegan parents dying despite being breastfed... You can´t simply say it´s because of factor X, without knowing the conditions, environment, experiences of said individual.

Edited May 28, 2021 by BadHippie

[mivafofa]

@Twega Ok... we're not talking on the same page here. We're not even arguing the same cause. You're so far in the spectrum that in your view you think I'm literally against veganism lol. I am not arguing against veganism. Most people here aren't either.  Every single points I've made was trying to explain to you that veganism is simply not for everyone. Can you accept it? Apparently not. You think there's smthg fundamentally wrong with me or ppl who get sick or weak from the diet.  Because you believe factually that it's a diet that fits for all.

What I've been arguing against all this time was your biases and dogmatic beliefs about veganism, not veganism itself. This is a big difference, and the fact you cannot see the difference shows how far you've gone in your partiality, to the point you see neutrality = against.  This may be an impossible concept for you to grasp but someone CAN be supportive of veganism, without being vegan.  Now before you go "That doesn't make sense. You can't support veganism while paying for animal slaughter!" I want clarify that I'm also supportive of carnism, of paleo, of keto, of raw dieting, of cooking, of fasting - I'm supportive of any diet and lifestyle that you feel striving on.

Here's another funny one I've heard "You must have not done it right."
I'm very health conscious when it comes to diet and training since a young age. I'm an athlete and most likely I'm healthier than the average healthy ppl you meet. The worst sickness I've had was chickenpox as a baby and maybe a flu. Oh and a bad case of diarrhea when I tried to eat a salad washed with the dirty water in China. It was kinda funny though, the water was poisoning all the foreigners training there and we were all fighting for the toilets. When the Master aligned us all, there was a longer line to the toilets than there was in the cafeteria. Lol. 
Anyway back to the point, I also look more than decade younger than I am.  Admist all my flaws & shortcomings, in compensation health was always my blessing and advantage in life.  So no, there was nthg wrong with me in terms of health before veganism.  I didn't do the diet wrong. I have a normal biology. I choose not to be vegan today not only for personal well-being, but also it's just not my calling anymore.
 

Edit: I wish you good health as well.

Edited May 28, 2021 by mivafofa