Leo didnt explained what is Atman if body is projection of consciousness

[machiavelli]

I have some serious dillema regarding concept of soul/ Atma and the consciousness. If my body is mere a projection of consciousness then what is that , that separate from physical body at the time of death?

We have now thousands of concrete proof regarding existence of soul . From OBE's to NDE . It is again and again show body and soul are two different thing. Even the religion such as hinduism and buddhism both advocate the existence of atma. And says its atma that is tied to cycle of birth and death based on karmic debt.

They attribute atma is the cause of everything and the reason for existence of anything.

When people die their soul /atma leave their body and merge with the higher self. Body is left behind . Hinduism says that atma sits inside body . Science has never able to trace where soul is located inside human body. Some yogis or sages  had said its pineal gland where soul is located. 

But as per research of D.R Rick strassman in DMT THE SPIRIT MOLECULE he concludes in research that brain is receiver of consciousness. Brain is like radio which itself is not consciousness but it receives consciousness from outside source 

 

Now as per thousands of NDE 's , OBE , and as per religion like hinduism atma is separate from body. And is separated at from the body at the time of death. Which is contradictory to what leo has taught us.

Leo said our whole body is consciousness. But religion , NDEs, OBEs , Astral projections etc say otherwise.

If atma is separate from the body then the notion that whole body is mind is wrong. Because atma sits inside the body and is separated from body at the time of death.

Also According to D.R Rick Strassman brain is only receiver of consciousness. Then it means body and consciousness is separate. And consciousness is same as soul and it leave human body at the time of death.

This has serious implication . It means our body is not mind. we are atma inside body. As we die we can see our body from outside. This has documented several times inside laboratory conditions as well as by OBEs and NDEs .   

Second concern is how could when a person die he can retain his ego?

This has been proved and documented again and again that people after dieing able to have their human ego individual identity intact during their near death experience.

I think leo is missing something here. How could people after dieing can think in the same way as on earth when they reach other side? It is documented they were able to retain memories and all their behaviour and personality on other side. Which is contrary to what people on psychedelic teach.

If this body is projection of consciousness then where is the place of soul / atma left?

How could it be possible then when we die others could see our body. And could burn or cremate it as per religious tradition . Isnt if the source of the body is consciousness then the body should dissappear too with loss of individual consciousness?

How can you explain this paradox?

 

 

[Anahata]

There is no "Soul" that leaves the body. They are not separate. You are pure consciousness and you are dreaming up a "physical body".

It's like when you dream at night. You think you are the character, or a Soul inside a body. But when you wake up in your bed in the morning that dreamworld along with the character you were playing both transform into this dream called life on earth. You're not leaving any body behind, in a universe somewhere when you wake up from sleep. You do not incarnate into a human when you dream in your sleep. You are dreaming up the WHOLE UNIVERSE/DIRECT EXPERIENCE. It's the same here. You are the formless God and you are a shape shifter not a soul in a physical body. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Anahata

[Leo Gura]

Death is imagined by consciousness.

There is no Atman, only God/Brahman.

[BipolarGrowth]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Death is imagined by consciousness.

There is no Atman, only God/Brahman.

The Atman is God/Brahman... The Atman is your personally designed portal to yourself as God/Brahman. 

[Ananta]

3 hours ago, machiavelli said:

then what is that , that separate from physical body at the time of death?

Sukshma sarira or the "subtle body" is the body of the mind and the vital energies, which keep the physical body alive. Together with the causal body it is the transmigrating soul or jiva, separating from the gross body upon death.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Bodies_Doctrine#Sukshma_sarira_-_subtle_body

[machiavelli]

@Leo Gura How do you explain the cases where people retaining their individual ego identity after dieing and having near death experiences. After researching about hundreds of NDE and OBE's one thing is really sure these people retain their personality and ego after they die. Which is clearly contradictory to what people on psychedelic teach .

Secondly how can  you explain encounters with souls which are being seen by people by naked eye and is caught on films. Even ghost siting is very common. There is abundant proof of existence of souls which operate separate from body. People have even captured wandering souls stuck on this material realm. They are often confused whether they are alive or dead. So keeps wandering in material realm and has not crossed into Light yet.

Is this all illusion created by atma? You say their is no atma. But Hinduism and Buddhism both advocate the belief in atma which separates body at the time of death. I myself witness many cases where people have witness soul leaving the body and floating above the physical body just after death of a person.

How it is possible that NDErs retain ego identity after they die? 
Is soul is what that produce EGO? Have you ever pondered over this thought? 
Maybe Soul is what is responsible for EGO and after we die we retain our EGO identity as EGO/atma survives the death of physical body.

Secondly you say their is only consciousness and consciousness projects the body. But why do after ceasation of consciousness at the tiime of death the body also disappears for others? As our body is also imagination of consciousness. 

Thirdly their is major belief in hinduism and Buddhism that our atma is subjected to cycle of birth and death according to karmic ties which our atma /soul is bounded with. Soul gets born again and again in this samsara until all the karmic debt is empty. What is your belief on this?

 

[machiavelli]

9 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

The Atman is God/Brahman... The Atman is your personally designed portal to yourself as God/Brahman. 

@BipolarGrowth Is it secondary to consciousness? Or is it consciousness itself?

How will you explained where people have witness soul leaving the body at the time of death of physical body? People have witessed it throught their own eyes.

If Atma/soul is what projects the body then is it possible that after the ceasation of consciousness at the time of death the body can be seen by other people on earth ? Isnt our soul is imagining the body at first place?

And how will you explain people retaining their ego identity and their personality after they die during their near death experiences? 
 

Edited May 26, 2021 by machiavelli

[Shin]

9 minutes ago, machiavelli said:

@BipolarGrowth Is it secondary to consciousness? Or is it consciousness itself?

How will you explained where people have witness soul leaving the body at the time of death of physical body? People have witessed it throught their own eyes.

If Atma/soul is what projects the body then is it possible that after the ceasation of consciousness at the time of death the body can be seen by other people on earth ? Isnt our soul is imagining the body at first place?

And how will you explain people retaining their ego identity and their personality after they die during their near death experiences? 
 

It's all imaginary.

Even the afterlife is something you imagine.

You're being lost in the details here, you have no idea how fucked up it is

[billiesimon]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no Atman, only God/Brahman.

Brahman is the singularity, or God, yes.

But Atman is real, it's just a lower form of awakening. It's the feeling of eternal existence/awareness. It's just a basic form of awakening/realization.

[machiavelli]

1 hour ago, billiesimon said:

 

But Atman is real, it's just a lower form of awakening. It's the feeling of eternal existence/awareness. It's just a basic form of awakening/realization.

What do you mean by lower form of awakening? And basic form of awakening?

Leo says their is no atma . So who is true?

[Dodo]

3 hours ago, machiavelli said:

What do you mean by lower form of awakening? And basic form of awakening?

Leo says their is no atma . So who is true?

I believe that what Leo is saying is that atman is imaginary and therefore not real (therefore no atman). That only Brahman/nothingness/Everythingness is real because it cannot be imagined. While the atman POV can be imagined. I guess! (we are imagining it right now  ) 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Dodo

[billiesimon]

4 hours ago, machiavelli said:

What do you mean by lower form of awakening? And basic form of awakening?

Leo says their is no atma . So who is true?

Well, there are experientially several levels of awakening. God realization is just the highest.

Atman, No-self, Love, etc are all levels of awakening.

Atman is just the individual awakening, when you FEEL deeply that you exist and that existence is timeless, you are awareness.

God realization is the end goal of awakening, it's Brahman, the First Principle of existence.

 

Note: I've only had Atman and No-self levels of awakening. I don't have any experience with God-awakening.

But Atman is real, on a relatively-nondual paradigm. It's beyond the ego, and it's your "personal" dimension of oneness.

[machiavelli]

1 hour ago, Dodo said:

I believe that what Leo is saying is that atman is imaginary and therefore not real (therefore no atman). That only Brahman/nothingness/Everythingness is real because it cannot be imagined. While the atman POV can be imagined. I guess! (we are imagining it right now  ) 

@Dodo So you mean its exist separate from body? 

Why do it separate from body at the time of death? Its is documented several times during OBE's that consciousness survives the death of physical body . And it leave the physical body at the time of death. So how come our consciousness is imagining our body if atman is inside body and leaves the body at the time of death? It shows atman is separate from body. 

[Dodo]

10 minutes ago, machiavelli said:

@Dodo So you mean its exist separate from body? 

Why do it separate from body at the time of death? Its is documented several times during OBE's that consciousness survives the death of physical body . And it leave the physical body at the time of death. So how come our consciousness is imagining our body if atman is inside body and leaves the body at the time of death? It shows atman is separate from body. 

First off, i am saying my understanding, Leo would probably say something else. That's how I understand him. Saying this because i don't want to put my meanings as what he meant, it might be different. 

Now Atman now is Experienced as the subject of your experience now. 

When the body dissolves, that doesnt mean your subject of experience will dissolve. As you mention, many appear to have the experience of continuing on out of body. 

That does not mean this atman subjective experience is real, it can still be imaginary pov in God's mind. With or without body below it.

Might be more you, but still not it. Who sees/knows the Atman? 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Dodo

[machiavelli]

@Dodo

Their has been a debate going on for a long time.

Buddhist believe there is no individualized self, even though many posit that there is reincarnation. They offer no explanation as to what is being reincarnated.

Vedanta believes that the self is not what you think it is but there is an individualized self called the Atman. What happens to the Atman when we die is debated within Vedanta.

Whats your view on reincarnation then? What is being reincarnated again and again if there is no soul?

I still is not satisfied with explanation of soul. I can see everybody is giving different answers like they are clueless. 

If soul is inside the body than its changes the whole meaning of " OUR WHOLE BODY IS MIND/ CONSCIOUSNESS " thing. That means soul is different from consciousness. 

Why are people able to retain experience of their own personality after dying during their NDE if ego dissolves after death.

Leo teaches that ego dissolves at the time of death. But NDEr's say something different. They say they have their memories intact and their individuality and ego. Which is contradiction to teachings of LEO.

How could it be possible ego is surviving after death? 

Edited May 26, 2021 by machiavelli

[The0Self]

5 minutes ago, machiavelli said:

Buddhist believe there is no individualized self, even though many posit that there is reincarnation. They offer no explanation as to what is being reincarnated.

Sure, there is no reincarnation. Absolutely. But there also aren't people... If there is an apparent experience of people as real, don't overlook the possibility of an apparent experience of reincarnation as real.

Edited May 26, 2021 by The0Self

[Dodo]

3 minutes ago, machiavelli said:

@Dodo

Their has been a debate going on for a long time.

Buddhist believe there is no individualized self, even though many posit that there is reincarnation. They offer no explanation as to what is being reincarnated.

Vedanta believes that the self is not what you think it is but there is an individualized self called the Atman. What happens to the Atman when we die is debated within Vedanta.

Whats your view on reincarnation then? What is being reincarnated again and again if there is no soul?

I still is not satisfied with explanation of soul. I can see everybody is giving different answers like they are clueless. 

If soul is inside the body than its changes the whole meaning of " OUR WHOLE BODY IS MIND/ CONSCIOUSNESS " thing. That means soul is different from consciousness. 

Why are people able to retain experience of their own personality after dying during their NDE if ego dissolves after death.

Leo teaches that ego dissolves at the time of death. But NDEr's say something different. They say they have their memories intact and their individuality and ego. Which is contradiction to teachings of LEO.

How could it be possible ego is surviving after death? 

Here is a little quick representation of my understanding. 

in short, I believe the atman is something that both exists and doesn't exist ( a point) and can be viewed both as nothingness and as somethingness. Check out the pic.

To me it is not about all those who discuss about it etc. I will never be able to trust with my eternal soul to someone else. What if they have bad intentions? For me to really know I have to find out myself. Especially if the subject is me! 

[machiavelli]

22 minutes ago, The0Self said:

Sure, there is no reincarnation. Absolutely. But there also aren't people... If there is an apparent experience of people as real, don't overlook the possibility of an apparent experience of reincarnation as real.

@The0Self But reincarnation is proved to be true. There are some documented cases of people across the world where people can remember their past lifes on earth. Some claim that they were born on other planets light years far from us. 

The whole notion of atma triggers duality . As soon as soul/atman exist then it implies it exist separate from body and is located somewhere in body. Otherwise what is that leaves the body during death of physical body? 
If soul exist then it means that whole notion of our body is Mind or consciousness is wrong. And we cant have influence on our body. As body and soul are different.

[AtheisticNonduality]

This is why stuff like "you are not real" or "you were never born" doesn't work...

[machiavelli]

35 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

This is why stuff like "you are not real" or "you were never born" doesn't work...

@AtheisticNonduality  What do you mean? Whom Shall I believe?

Leo teaches something else and NDE'rs say something else.

On on hand NDE'rs , OBEs , Astral Projections etc on other hand pyschedelics and experience of NON -Duality.

Some are saying Soul does not exist. Some are saying soul do exist and is inside body.

What do you mean by inside body? Is soul is separate from body ? --> means dualism .

Means our body is not a projection of consciousness. It is separate from atma/soul. 

This thing has shattered by whole paradigm of Non-Dualism.  And nobody is able to give satisfactory answers to why soul exist separate from body when body is mere thought in the consciousness??