Krishna. His devotee, Arjuna and The Bhagavad Gita.

[Eternal Unity]

Krishna speaks: "I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him."

Krishna tells Arjuna that he is relating the most confedential teaching to him because he is his devotee and his friend.

The Bhagavad-gītā is best understood by a person who has qualities similar to Arjuna's. The term devotee means just that, as Krishna himself was a devotee of his master - Saint Sandipani, so Arjuna is now a devotee of Krishna.

A devotee is in a relationship with The Supreme Personality of Godhead in one of five different ways:

1. One may be a devotee in a passive state.
2. One may be a devotee in an active state.
3. One may be a devotee as a friend.
4. One may be a devotee as a parent.
5. One may be a devotee as a conjugal lover.

 

If we translate Krishna to the later conceived Buddhist Ox Herding Pictures, I'd place him, at the time he spoke the divine conversation with Arjuna, in the 9th picture. Return to Source. 

Krishna is also Spiral Dynamics Stage Coral.

Leo will call, I believe, Krishna's state of consciousness as Liberation. Krishna has his own name for his consciousness - Kṛṣṇa Consciousness or Krishna Consciousness.

 

Arjuna was in a relationship with The Supreme Personality of Godhead as a friend. Of course, there is a huge difference between this friendship and the friendship found in the material world. This is transcendental friendship.

Greg

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Eternal Unity
Devotional Service

[Dodo]

35 minutes ago, Eternal Unity said:

Krishna speaks: "I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him."

Krishna tells Arjuna that he is relating the most confedential teaching to him because he is his devotee and his friend.

The Bhagavad-gītā is best understood by a person who has qualities similar to Arjuna's. The term devotee means just that, as Krishna himself was a devotee of his master - Saint Sandipani, so Arjuna is now a devotee of Krishna.

A devotee is in a relationship with The Supreme Personality of Godhead in one of five different ways:

1. One may be a devotee in a passive state.
2. One may be a devotee in an active state.
3. One may be a devotee as a friend.
4. One may be a devotee as a parent.
5. One may be a devotee as a conjugal lover.

 

If we translate Krishna to the later conceived Buddhist Ox Herding Pictures, I'd place him, at the time he spoke the divine conversation with Arjuna, in the 9th picture. Return to Source. 

Krishna is also Spiral Dynamics Stage Coral.

Leo will call, I believe, Krishna's state of consciousness as Liberation. Krishna has his own name for his consciousness - Kṛṣṇa Consciousness or Krishna Consciousness.

 

Arjuna was in a relationship with The Supreme Personality of Godhead as a friend. Of course, there is a huge difference between this friendship and the friendship found in the material world. This is transcendental friendship.

Greg

 

Not going to lie, I do not understand all these, including the ox herding pictures. How am I supposed to have a relationship with the emptiness within which my experience arises? One would have to be really subtle in order to even notice such a non-thing, now we supposed to be in relationship with it? And with what? It is at no distance from ourself, so how to have relationship with yourself...?

Are the ox herding pictures talking about dressage of the wild mind? 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Dodo

[Eternal Unity]

@Dodo

Question: How am I supposed to have a relationship with the emptiness within which my experience arises?

Answer: You already are. You are always in a relationship with it, for emptiness is who you are. To thing otherwise, is a duality and ultimately, an illusion.

Question: One would have to be really subtle in order to even notice such a non-thing, now we supposed to be in relationship with it?

Answer: Yes, distinctly subtle. I will add here that you're not "supposed to be" anything. You're already being. What, you might ask? That which you truly are - a being. A human being. Being in relationship with Non Duality has its benifits.

Question:  And with what?

Answer: With ALL of your being. Body, MInd and Spirit are just one triple aspect of your being. There are many more.

Examples:

1. Past, Present and Future,

2. Id, Ego and Super Ego

3. Here, There and No Where

4. Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

5. Leo Gura, Dodo and Eternal Unity.

6. Knowing, Experiencing And Being

Question: It is at no distance from ourself, so how to have relationship with yourself...?

Answer: You're right about that of course. There is no distance from ourselves. So, where are we? Within. The more easier and natural answer - Unification of Self. You already ARE that. You're YOU. Forever merged with yourself. This is even beyond a mere relationship with yourself, it is COMMUNION with yourself. You had a relationship with yourself since you can remember. Perhaps, you weren't CONSCIOUS of that but the relationship was right there under your nose. When you Self Realize, become God, whatever... Suddenly, all the lights are lit. You understand. How the system works, where the cracks are, how to enter there, how to exit, how to transcend it altogether - To Go Meta. You are finally at peace. You have eternity by your side. Time, Death, Life. It's all the same to you now. You have Tamed The Ox.

Question: Are the ox herding pictures talking about dressage of the wild mind? 

Answer: That's exactly what it talks about.

 

In conclusion, i'd say that The Ox Herding Model was very helpful along my journey and I highly recommend to study it. Start with Leo's episode.

Good questions! I hope I provided a bit more clarity.

Greg.

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Eternal Unity

[Dodo]

7 minutes ago, Eternal Unity said:

@Dodo

Question: How am I supposed to have a relationship with the emptiness within which my experience arises?

Answer: You already are. You are always in a relationship with it, for emptiness is who you are. To thing otherwise, is a duality and ultimately, an illusion.

Question: One would have to be really subtle in order to even notice such a non-thing, now we supposed to be in relationship with it?

Answer: Yes, distinctly subtle. I will add here that you're not "supposed to be" anything. You're already being. What, you might ask? That which you truly are - a being. A human being. Being in relationship with Non Duality has its benifits.

Question:  And with what?

Answer: With ALL of your being. Body, MInd and Spirit are just one triple aspect of your being. There are many more.

Examples:

1. Past, Present and Future,

2. Id, Ego and Super Ego

3. Here, There and No Where

4. Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

5. Leo Gura, Dodo and Eternal Unity.

6. Knowing, Experiencing And Being

Question: It is at no distance from ourself, so how to have relationship with yourself...?

Answer: You're right about that of course, No distance from ourselves. So, where are we? Within. The more easier and natural answer - Unification of Self. You already ARE that. You're YOU. Forever merged with yourself. This is even beyond a mere relationship with yourself, it is COMMUNION with yourself. You had a relationship with yourself since you can remember. Perhaps, you weren't CONSCIOUS of that but the relationship was right there under your nose. When you Self Realize, become God, whatever... Suddenly, all the lights are lit. You understand. How the system works, where the cracks are, how to enter there, how to exit, how to transcend it altogether - To Go Meta. You are finally at peace. You have ETERNITY by your side. Time, Death, Life. It's all the same to you now. You have Tamed The Ox.

Question: Are the ox herding pictures talking about dressage of the wild mind? 

Answer: That's exactly what it talks about.

 

In conclusion, i'd say that The Ox Herding Model was very helpful along my journey and I highly recommend to study it. Start with Leo's episode. Good questions, Dodo. I hope I provided a bit more clarity.

Greg.

 

 

 

Thanks for the response. I appreciate your clarity and wisdom.  I have a further question - If one transcends / goes meta/ has eternity by its side and then the bodymind starts trying to get "other minds" to see it / go meta, it can trigger a negative egoic response in less conscious individuals who assume separation for example and misunderstand this as an attack on their belief systems. 

Then those "other" minds appear to try to make your existence worse in order to prove to you that they are not you. 

I am saying this because I had an encounter with one "friend" yesterday and I was contemplating reality, which triggered a really egoic reaction in him as he started shouting insults at me and looking all serious. I was amazed, it was so out of the blue, I had no idea why what I said triggered him so much. It was like what Eckhart Tolle talks about that "pain body" entity had arisen... He wanted to change reality and was doing it through insults and trying to make me self-conscious. Literally he called me an idiot and tried to attack my human self. 

So if you walk with eternity by your side, you would still get those people trying to trip you up? But assuming others are me and through this realisation we see more and more the truth of this, I am going to be more trusting of people, as I would think it is me trying to give myself a message of some sort through the other bodymind... But then they will abuse me for it and mistake my non-egoic behaviour as a justification to act egoic without consequences...

I don't know if I confused you by all this, but maybe you get what Im saying. How to deal with egoic behaviour basically... I mean when someone is egoic, I tend to respond with the same level of consciousness, like a mirror... But that is like dragging me down to their level... Maybe I need to cut ties? 

 

 

 

[Eternal Unity]

36 minutes ago, Dodo said:

So if you walk with eternity by your side, you would still get those people trying to trip you up?

Only when you're, say, a NEW Self Realized Being. Like Eckhart was at ages 29 to 31. The time when, I believe, he came up with The Pain Body Concept. The amount of time required to adapt to self realization is individual and depends on many variables. When that is fully integrated, you are at liberation, 9th pic, stage coral. Krishna-like

Ego = That which restrains you on The Path TO Self Realization. That is only BEFORE self realization.

You don't NEED to cut ties, but you sure CAN if you feel that it's dragging you down. Your call.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Eternal Unity

[Dodo]

11 minutes ago, Eternal Unity said:

Only when you're, say, a NEW Self Realized Being. Like Eckhart was at ages 29 to 31. The time when, I believe, he came up with The Pain Body Concept. The amount of time required to adapt to self realization is individual and depends on many variables. When that is fully integrated, you are at liberation, 9th pic, stage coral. Krishna-like

Ego = That which restrains you on The Path TO Self Realization. That is only BEFORE self realization.

You don't NEED to cut ties, but you sure CAN if you feel that it's dragging you down. Your call.

How would Eckhart for example react if there was some fool next to him constantly making sudden movements as if about to hit him. I get that we are not the body, but would still make you respond, right? 

The enlightened way would be which one:

a)ignore the annoying fool and accept the situation (but you cant really cause he will just keep doing it and you dont know if next time he will actually hit or trip you.) - but the fool will keep you in fight or flight which is undesirable state.

b) remove yourself from the situation, proving that you were affected by the behaviour

C) slap him/ fight him/ become as unconscious as him.

 

Seriously that guy used me like a damn doormat last night. And I allowed it because I anchor space. Absolutely incredible. I think the full moon energy might be affecting his psyche..  Full moon? More like Fool moon!

Edited May 26, 2021 by Dodo

[Eternal Unity]

@Dodo Fool moon, that's funny  It does affect.

Eckhart has completed the path over 20 years ago, he's way way more advanced tham me, so I honestly don't know how he would react. It is logical to think that he'd react now differently that how he would have reacted the day before he completed The Power of Now, for example.

Listen, man, at the right moment, all of those options are acceptable as possible counter actions. I am not enlightened, again, I don't know how an enlightened person would deal with the situation, that is, of course, if such an individual will choose to deal with it at all.

For myself, I have chosen each of your suggestions on many occasions. Most of the time it was b), sometimes a) and rarely did I chose c)

I'll add that for certain, an enlightened being will not view anyone as fools or annoyances for they aware of The Divine Plan and the progression of body\mind\spirit complex of unconscious people.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Eternal Unity

[Dodo]

10 minutes ago, Eternal Unity said:

@Dodo Fool moon, that's funny

Eckhart has completed the path over 20 years ago, he's way way more advanced tham me, so I honestly don't know how he would react. It is logical to think that he'd react now differently that how he would have reacted the day before he completed The Power of Now, for example.

Listen, man, at the right moment, all of those options are acceptable as possible counter actions. I am not enlightened, again, I don't know how an enlightened person would deal with the situation, that is, of course, if such an individual will choose to deal with it at all.

for my self, I have chosen each of your suggestions on many occasions. Most of the time it was b), sometimes a) and rarely did I chose c)

I'll add that for certain, an enlightened being will not view anyone as fools or annoyances for they aware of The Divine Plan and the progression of body\mind\spirit complex of unconscious people.

But i wouldn't be sure about that last statement. Im pretty sure enlightened can view some as fools, even if knowing something deeper. Might even see his own "guy self" like fool too ?

But you say you're not enlightened so maybe there are different ways those foolish bodymindspirit complexes can be pushed on the right path rather than just spiral into their delusions further. I don't subscribe to "all is well".

If someone starts torturing your bodymindspirit even the most enlightened will start to question the sanity of some aspects of the absolute. It's not all well at all! When Jesus was on the cross, he questioned for a moment, why has God forsaken him...

And I do have a direct experience and know the difference between someone being intentionally mean in order to hurt (satan) and those who are true to the spirit of Peace and Love (God) . 

I do not believe in nonduality. I actually intuited my friend had a connection with this evil spirit before he exploded. It was like a presence.. Knowing its presence could have been what triggered it. It likes to be hidden. 

Eckhart is on point with the pain body thing, he is exposing satan to the Light of consciousness and Love.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Dodo

[Eternal Unity]

@Dodo Right, could be many different ways. Jesus wasn't perfect, it seems. I love Eckhart, he married Kim Eng, which is an amazing lady

[BipolarGrowth]

Placing Krishna at picture 9 in the ox herding system just doesn’t make sense to me. Your choice to put him at picture 9 was perfectly logical within the system itself, but I think that this example shows how treating picture 10 as an ideal is problematic and how many of the ideas around picture 10 are heavily biased. 

[Dodo]

32 minutes ago, Eternal Unity said:

@Dodo Right, could be many different ways. Jesus wasn't perfect, it seems. I love Eckhart, he married Kim Eng, which is an amazing lady

Im not even saying he wasn't perfect, it is perfectly normal in my opinion, to feel forsaken if this happens to you. The thing is most of us are doing armchair philosophy which is easy. 

Oh yeah I am not the body etc etc., but if reality conspires to check that for real, you might be put in situation where you, from your direct experience as a human can be tortured... It wouldn't feel like all is good at that point, it would feel like there is some force there which is guided by dark/evil spirits.

There are many different spirits that exist and we need to be conscious of which one we let work through us. 

We are all innocent, it is the spirits we let in that can mud things up... Here comes the importance of that mind dressage (ox herding) I guess. The oxes are going to be beast natured and wild, unless we apply spiritual wisdom on our ox but also on other oxes around us! 
 

If you make your ox "enlightened" or domesticated, and it is surrounded by wild oxes, the wild ones are likely to destroy the "domesticated" one... Unless most are domesticated and only few are wild, then we have a problem!  That's why I think religion is a positive, as it usually anchors the spirit of Love in the reader/user and not evil-doing. 

 

But now if we dont even acknowledge there is Spirit of evil going around the world, how are we going to tackle it? There is so much qualitative difference between spirit of evil and spirit of Love. I believe its good to be mindful of that, and not just close our eyes for the injustices of the world and the preventable evil. 

Here is a poker analogy to support my post (even though I dont like playing it): In poker you can win or you can lose. Both whether you win or you lose, you are playing poker (nonduality) but there is a qualitative difference- a REAL difference between whether you are winning or you are losing. But either way, you're playing, right? That doesn't mean its all the same. The result , the fruit, is important.

Not all trees bear good fruit. Some trees require help to produce better fruits. We cant do that if we say the rotten fruit is Good. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Dodo

[Eternal Unity]

@BipolarGrowth

In my opinion, Krishna, during the Kurukshetra War is at picture 9. Later, he ascended to 10 and even beyond that.

He only had one student, Arjuna. He did not, as far as I know, taught the enigmas of the universe before. Publicly, that is. I could be wrong about this. I'm studying The Gita and collect material about the life of Krishna.

To teach in public is an act which is the hallmark of Ox Herding Picture 10, Re Entering The Marketplace.

Again, all this is speculation, I am personally not even half way there...

Thanks for igniting my imagination ?

Greg

Edited May 26, 2021 by Eternal Unity
10th Ox Picture

[Eternal Unity]

@Dodo

More than one ox? Wow that's news to me. Thank you! It puts all in recontextualization.

Loved the Poker Metaphor, too

Greg

[BipolarGrowth]

6 minutes ago, Eternal Unity said:

@BipolarGrowth

In my opinion, Krishna, during the Kurukshetra War is at picture 9. Later, he ascended to 10 and even beyond that.

He only had one student, Arjuna. He did not, as far as I know, taught the enigmas of the universe before. Publicly, that is. I could be wrong about this. I'm studying The Gita and collect material about the life of Krishna.

To teach in public is an act which is the hallmark of Ox Herding Picture 10, Re Entering The Marketplace.

Again, all this is speculation, I am personally not even half way there...

Thanks for igniting my imagination ?

Greg

Just going off of Leo’s interpretations of the pictures, public teaching is pretty diametrically opposed to his description of picture 10. I think some of this that he said regarding picture 10 was from the book’s author himself describing the non-teaching aspect of picture 10. I could be wrong about that. I’d have to check. 
 

I’d love to explore Krishna’s life before and after the Gita. Which sources are you using for that? 

[Eternal Unity]

2 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

Which sources are you using for that? 

- Various Bhakti Yoga practices and books.

- The International Society for Krishna Consciousness Study Groups.

- Follow Radhanath Swami.

- Read the works of Deepak Chopra.

[BipolarGrowth]

2 hours ago, Eternal Unity said:

- Various Bhakti Yoga practices and books.

- The International Society for Krishna Consciousness Study Groups.

- Follow Radhanath Swami.

- Read the works of Deepak Chopra.

Nice. You will like this if you haven’t seen it already. 

I don’t think you can accurately determine Krishna’s consciousness because he is so close to Absolute God Realization by nature. His karma was to become this. He is a different case than what will be seen for normal people. This is why I don’t think putting maps of meaning on him will really make sense. It’s like using a scale for testing dolphin intelligence to measure a human’s intelligence and expecting it to go well. A human scale of awakening is not going to contain or explain the fullness of a true God. 

[Eternal Unity]

@BipolarGrowth

Thanks!

Yeah, the thing with Krishna is that he is so close to God he IS called God. Just one thing bothers be. He told Arjuna to fight. Arjuna did not want to out of compassion and love for his enemies. Krishna convinced him that he should. His argument is solid but I believe a true God Realized Being would always choose peace instead of war. I can imagine the circumstances, but still...

[BipolarGrowth]

4 hours ago, Eternal Unity said:

@BipolarGrowth

Thanks!

Yeah, the thing with Krishna is that he is so close to God he IS called God. Just one thing bothers be. He told Arjuna to fight. Arjuna did not want to out of compassion and love for his enemies. Krishna convinced him that he should. His argument is solid but I believe a true God Realized Being would always choose peace instead of war. I can imagine the circumstances, but still...

I don’t think this is true. A truly God Realized Being knows that fighting in this reality is as safe as kids jumping in a pit of foam balls. Allowing a bully or group of bullies to steal from you is not a Godly way of life if you have way to prevent it. Allowing oppression is not a higher virtue. Arjuna is failing himself, his family, his kingdom, and his people to let less moral people rule the country... there is no true peace or honor in this. They will get their next lives to try to live in a better way once they are defeated if they will not give back what was never rightfully theirs in the first place. This is the thought. 

[Karas]

@Eternal UnityThat is the fight in the mind or within yourself  not actual physical fight .

[Eternal Unity]

@BipolarGrowth Great insight there! Thank you