I feel that Leo hasn't really explained how the universe is Good

[Mh1781]

Good and bad do not mean anything in my view without a subjective goal, in my case I'll use well being as an example. We aren't all powerful and there are things that can hinder well being which can be labelled bad. In the God state, there's nothing that can really be subjectively bad to God because nothing can get in the way of its goal. To quote Leo "God's motive is goodness. Pure joy of existence".Not just things that humans love, but also the things humans abhor like rape, murder, torture, etc.This reminds me of euthypro dillemma. Why should we in our lower conscious state accept that suffering is good because our higher conscious self, which wants to metaphorically bust a nut exploring every possibility, feels that way. What if you're living the person whose family got murdered and is being tortured by the government. I don't care how much you're able to lose your ego and not even care about your family dying, that water boarding is going to hurt like a motherfucker. Im not expecting that God should make the universe perfect for humans or that it should force humans to be perfect moral agents, but why should one accept loving every possible experience is better than experiencing excruciating pain.

At the very least God could "give infinite beings opportunity to experience and discover infinite good of consciousness themselves." Because of some people's genetics, cognitive biases, environment, and lack of access to education, so many people do not even have a chance to attempt what Leo is claiming is possible, let alone believe it. In these cases, God is essentially cockblocking itself from discovering it's God which Leo says is the point of creating infinite beings in the first place.

 

I'm still open to the idea that God is just infinite consciousness manifesting every possibility, but I just view that as a possible reality that is neither good or bad in the ultimate sense, but unfavored as a human being that has the potential to experience so much suffering for no reason other than existing. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AtheisticNonduality]

The universe is good for itself if good means beneficial to its existence. And when you awaken and identify with the whole thing, you experience reality as god because it "serves you" in a way.

[Mh1781]

@AtheisticNonduality

 If at full God consciousness experiencing all possibilities is the ultimate good so be it, but I don't understand how that subjective view from the ultimate consciousness is truer than a limited consciousness being tortured without any memory of consenting thinking that it's bad. 

Edited May 23, 2021 by Mh1781
Quote reply

[Danioover9000]

@Mh1781

35 minutes ago, Mh1781 said:

Good and bad do not mean anything in my view without a subjective goal, in my case I'll use well being as an example. We aren't all powerful and there are things that can hinder well being which can be labelled bad. In the God state, there's nothing that can really be subjectively bad to God because nothing can get in the way of its goal. To quote Leo "God's motive is goodness. Pure joy of existence".Not just things that humans love, but also the things humans abhor like rape, murder, torture, etc.This reminds me of euthypro dillemma. Why should we in our lower conscious state accept that suffering is good because our higher conscious self, which wants to metaphorically bust a nut exploring every possibility, feels that way. What if you're living the person whose family got murdered and is being tortured by the government. I don't care how much you're able to lose your ego and not even care about your family dying, that water boarding is going to hurt like a motherfucker. Im not expecting that God should make the universe perfect for humans or that it should force humans to be perfect moral agents, but why should one accept loving every possible experience is better than experiencing excruciating pain.

At the very least God could "give infinite beings opportunity to experience and discover infinite good of consciousness themselves." Because of some people's genetics, cognitive biases, environment, and lack of access to education, so many people do not even have a chance to attempt what Leo is claiming is possible, let alone believe it. In these cases, God is essentially cockblocking itself from discovering it's God which Leo says is the point of creating infinite beings in the first place.

 

I'm still open to the idea that God is just infinite consciousness manifesting every possibility, but I just view that as a possible reality that is neither good or bad in the ultimate sense, but unfavored as a human being that has the potential to experience so much suffering for no reason other than existing. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   Consider the possibility that this journey is training you to become GOD, to create your own universe, and due to the difficulties faced at various degrees by 7 billion people, that that is why reincarnation is for, for those who need more training. Food for thought.

[Mh1781]

@Danioover9000 I'm not sure if you agree with Leo, but aren't we already God? Can't God comprehend the lessons learned from experiences to create its own universe without making a consciousness that feels independent suffer unimaginable pain?

8 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Mh1781

   Consider the possibility that this journey is training you to become GOD, to create your own universe, and due to the difficulties faced at various degrees by 7 billion people, that that is why reincarnation is for, for those who need more training. Food for thought.

 

[Mu_]

@Mh1781   You bring up a lot of good and logical deductions, they make sense to the human heart and mind it the unique way they do to you.

Out of curiosity, do you feel for the deaths and pains that bugs and aliens you haven't met go through, or does it Really bother you? 

And does the fact that things grow and fall apart bother you?

Is it the fact that uncomfortable and really uncomfortable experience is possible that you see God or Life in a none good way (be aware this is just one point of view).

Some people love pain and thrive off of it and do all sorts of body mutilation as a way of art and being, to them they don't see this pain as a reason that life is bad, they in fact find pleasure in pain, some even find this their favorite part of life.

Depending on how you honestly answer, I'll answer more of your question.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Mh1781 said:

, but why should one accept loving every possible experience is better than experiencing excruciating pain.

In the absolute sense you are free to hate your pain.

The problem for you is that hate and resistance to pain just makes the pain worse.

But you are free to torture yourself until you wise up.

2 hours ago, Mh1781 said:

At the very least God could "give infinite beings opportunity to experience and discover infinite good of consciousness themselves." Because of some people's genetics, cognitive biases, environment, and lack of access to education, so many people do not even have a chance to attempt what Leo is claiming is possible, let alone believe it.

What you don't appreciate is that mankind is the cause of most of its own suffering.

Education cannot come from the heavens, mankind has to bootstrap it from nothing.

Everything has to be bootstrapped. This bootstrapping process is very challenging.

2 hours ago, Mh1781 said:

In these cases, God is essentially cockblocking itself from discovering it's God which Leo says is the point of creating infinite beings in the first place.

Exactly, God cannot awaken unless God really wants to. So God struggles help itself.

God put itself in this survival game.

[Mh1781]

1 hour ago, Mu_ said:

@Mh1781   You bring up a lot of good and logical deductions, they make sense to the human heart and mind it the unique way they do to you.

Out of curiosity, do you feel for the deaths and pains that bugs and aliens you haven't met go through, or does it Really bother you? 

And does the fact that things grow and fall apart bother you?

Is it the fact that uncomfortable and really uncomfortable experience is possible that you see God or Life in a none good way (be aware this is just one point of view).

Some people love pain and thrive off of it and do all sorts of body mutilation as a way of art and being, to them they don't see this pain as a reason that life is bad, they in fact find pleasure in pain, some even find this their favorite part of life.

Depending on how you honestly answer, I'll answer more of your question.

@Mu_

Of course I'll be honest, I'm not trying to win, I genuinely want to understand where you guys are coming from.

I feel for the pain of of other animals, but no where as near as I should because then I'd be a vegan. It's a hypocrisy on my part and I acknowledge it. never really thought of other potential life forms so no that doesn't bother me. As for insects it's much harder for me to sympathize with them because I don't even know if they are conscious let alone experience pain.

Things coming and falling apart bothers me in the short term, but I accept it in the long term. I will say, although I'm not so scared of my ego dying I still get scared of not experiencing consciousness at all after death.

Uncomfortable and really uncomfortable experiences don't bother me. It's hardcore pain like torture, war, and rape that's do personally bother me and does make me see that the universe in a more negative light. 

Also while I acknowledge some people do love pain, it's one thing to consent experiencing it vs somebody else getting it when they don't consent, driving them to suicide (chronic pain in body).

 

[Mu_]

1 hour ago, Mh1781 said:

@Mu_

Of course I'll be honest, I'm not trying to win, I genuinely want to understand where you guys are coming from.

I feel for the pain of of other animals, but no where as near as I should because then I'd be a vegan. It's a hypocrisy on my part and I acknowledge it. never really thought of other potential life forms so no that doesn't bother me. As for insects it's much harder for me to sympathize with them because I don't even know if they are conscious let alone experience pain.

Things coming and falling apart bothers me in the short term, but I accept it in the long term. I will say, although I'm not so scared of my ego dying I still get scared of not experiencing consciousness at all after death.

Uncomfortable and really uncomfortable experiences don't bother me. It's hardcore pain like torture, war, and rape that's do personally bother me and does make me see that the universe in a more negative light. 

Also while I acknowledge some people do love pain, it's one thing to consent experiencing it vs somebody else getting it when they don't consent, driving them to suicide (chronic pain in body).

 

So essentially, it comes down to how you see war, torture, and rape?  Why would a "good" god create such things if it were really good? 

What if someone else didn't see those things the same way you did, perhaps in a more broad way that wasn't attributing such things to mean the universe was bad and as such they saw life as a overall good place, would it make the universe ok then, or would you opinion still trump that?

[Mh1781]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

In the absolute sense you are free to hate your pain.

The problem for you is that hate and resistance to pain just makes the pain worse.

But you are free to torture yourself until you wise up.

"why should one accept loving every possible experience is better than experiencing excruciating pain." When I wrote this, I was thinking of why God thinks it's good to fully experience itself rather than save itself at least the worst suffering in its ego form.  Why is this self-exploration at the cost of the suffering of clueless egos good. is it simply because that's why our higher state wants?

Quote

What you don't appreciate is that mankind is the cause of most of its own suffering.

Education cannot come from the heavens, mankind has to bootstrap it from nothing.

Everything has to be bootstrapped. This bootstrapping process is very challenging.

Exactly, God cannot awaken unless God really wants to. So God struggles help itself.

God put itself in this survival game.

I've heard you say that God is infinite and can imagine anything into reality. Why not imagine a game that doesn't involve unnecessary suffering like children dying

[Mh1781]

 

Quote

So essentially, it comes down to how you see war, torture, and rape?  Why would a "good" god create such things if it were really good? 

What if someone else didn't see those things the same way you did, perhaps in a more broad way that wasn't attributing such things to mean the universe was bad and as such they saw life as a overall good place, would it make the universe ok then, or would you opinion still trump that?

@Mu_ Honestly, now that I think about it I wouldn't really say that all those forms of suffering make me think that the universe is bad, just that it's neutral to our pleasure and pain. I think the main disagreement I have with Leo is when he says the entire universe is all good and there's no bad at all. if your moral axiom is fully explore all forms of consciousness sure he can say everything that happens is good. I just think that's so far removed from the axiom of morality that most if not all humans use which is maximize pleasure and minimize pain. This even applies to religious people who seek heaven to maximize pleasure and avoid hell to prevent pain. 

 

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, Mh1781 said:

I've heard you say that God is infinite and can imagine anything into reality. Why not imagine a game that doesn't involve unnecessary suffering like children dying

Because it is necessary. You just lack the consciousness and intelligence to see the necessity of children dying.

Everything that exists is absolutely necessary and could not be otherwise.

Reality is Absolute Perfection. The only problem is that your vision is clouded.

[Mh1781]

31 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Because it is necessary. You just lack the consciousness and intelligence to see the necessity of children dying.

Everything that exists is absolutely necessary and could not be otherwise.

Reality is Absolute Perfection. The only problem is that your vision is clouded.

I get what you're saying with necessity, I'm a determinist myself. I just want to understand what you mean when you say reality is absolute perfection because that's very subjective. 

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Mh1781 said:

I just want to understand what you mean when you say reality is absolute perfection because that's very subjective.

It is not subjective at all.

Reality is Absolute Perfection when you look at with a high enough degree of consciousness, free from all of your biases and attachments.

God did not make any mistakes. That's what's so astounding about awakening. It is unbelievably Good.

[RMQualtrough]

@Mh1781 I also see God as a completely neutral force. Something can't be good or bad without a concept of good/bad.

Perfection is different from good or bad. That just means there are no mistakes. In a determinist world there can't be mistakes so it is perfect.

But in terms of good/bad it would be equally valid to say everything is bad. It's like morals, there's no such thing.

[Dazgwny]

This has definitely been explained over the last couple of years. And in depth too. But either way an explanation to any degree would still not cut it for you. Explaination isn’t enough. Realisation is what’s needed.

Ive a severely disabled family member, from birth. Now it’s true that they will never be able to awaken in this lifetime as they wouldn’t have any idea what was going on. I’ve no idea what the subjective experience might be like, but unfortunate as it is, I know they know next to nothing about anything. So in that sense it would be impossible to awaken to god as there is no concept of god there’s just nothing to go off. Now from a human perspective this seems naturally unfair. But I’ve gone deep enough during my own awakenings to realise the perfection of this, the perfection of him, and the necessity of these situations. These things are necessary, it’s a part of infinity infact it’s impossible for it not to be at some given point. You can realise the absolute good of infinity. Also if everything was absolutely perfect from a human perspective, no disability no young deaths no this no that, whatever you want to eliminate, it still couldn’t be all good from the relative point of view. Because there would still always be people who have more than others, so the lesser of all these goods would be the bad. If everyone was a billionaire and you were a millionaire, you would feel like shite, you’d be depressed because of your finances in comparison to everybody else, you’d be suffering. Being a millionaire wouldn’t be worth anything because the average would be a billionaire. It’s far too narrow minded to think that any of the finite world can be improved upon, as in its make up, reality itself, infact it’s ludicrous. Relatively yes you can improve things. Absolutely? No chance, it’s idiotic to think so. And anyway, in a deep enough awakening you can realise, which I did, that myself awakening, even if only during a psychedelic experience, is also my disabled family member awakening. You realise your the same one being. So you awaken as yourself, to yourself, as everyone else. You awaken for and as the entire universe. 
Not that I’m conscious of these points I’ve made now, but I have become conscious of them. And dropped back down into my contracted egoic state. But left with a conceptual understanding of them with contemplation and integration. And much more than I could possibly write here or even remotely explain through words. Which once experienced is undeniable. I can’t even begin to imagine how much deeper it goes. I’m nowhere on this journey. But I do know reality is absolute perfection 

[Mu_]

13 hours ago, Mh1781 said:

 

@Mu_ Honestly, now that I think about it I wouldn't really say that all those forms of suffering make me think that the universe is bad, just that it's neutral to our pleasure and pain. I think the main disagreement I have with Leo is when he says the entire universe is all good and there's no bad at all. if your moral axiom is fully explore all forms of consciousness sure he can say everything that happens is good. I just think that's so far removed from the axiom of morality that most if not all humans use which is maximize pleasure and minimize pain. This even applies to religious people who seek heaven to maximize pleasure and avoid hell to prevent pain. 

 

Your right it is so far away from normal human axioms. But hey so are many things that we are not aware of, that doesn’t make it not true because we can’t experience it because we lack a sense or an organ.  This desire to find out is not always easy, in fact it’s one of the hardest most uncomfortable ventures for a lot of people, really letting go of what you think you know is not easy, it’s like trusting if you walk through a cave with no light and trusting you’ll find the other side, at times you may believe your going crazy or are going to die. But just when it’s to much a magical something that defies reason and your old beliefs gives you a nudge and a sign and it changes your life. Of course this is metaphor but it’s not far off in my experience. 

All this said you will at times or largely use all your current faculties and capacities to discover and evolve towards what Leo is pointing towards.