Heavy metal detox -- Deep info on proper chelation -- Convinced by user to post this

[The0Self]

I've said things on it enough times. Leo can do the rest. There's nothing else I know that I haven't posted/commented here.

Copied and pasted comments are in between the ----------'s. The rest is additional information.

Disclaimer: ALA referred to here is not the omega 3 fatty acid, alpha linolenic acid. It’s alpha lipoic acid. AKA thioctic acid. I don’t have any experience with chelators besides ALA and DMSA, but DMPS certainly seems to have merit as well. ALA must be taken no less frequently than every 3 hours, and DMSA must be taken no less frequently than every 4 hours (i.e. e3h is even better) — both must be taken at this frequency for at least 72 hours straight, otherwise the chelation round was not only unsuccessful...you may have just damaged your body and likely your brain. Anything other than these 3 chelators, zeolite, and in rare cases, EDTA, for chelation, is dangerous and anyone advocating it has no clue how chelators work. The double thiol group acts as a loose but effective hook of sorts — a lone thiol group will just spread metals around haphazardly (possibly causing damage and stress), without latching onto them and actually taking them out of the body. ALA, DMSA, and DMPS are double thiol chelators that are safe when used correctly.

Andy Cutler’s writings, and his posts and wikis on onibasu are where you go for further info.

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I didn't feel anything off 600mg ALA + 100mg DMSA e3h for 30+ day rounds, fwiw.

I mean, I didn't get side-effects. The brain fog and fatigue went away.

And ALA only affects mercury (and arsenic, which is not as big of a deal). DMSA chelates lead and mercury.

 

Btw 64 hours is too short. That's cutting it way too close -- healing/damage ratio is positive by the 72 hour mark for adults, and maybe 60 hours for small children, but you might as well get the ratio as high as possible... Aim for 96+ hours; preferably 7-14+ days. The longer the better, provided you keep copper under control. You CANNOT take ALA for long cycles without zinc (and preferably molybdenum too) 4x/d, or you will be profoundly overloaded with copper.

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It is very, very risky, unless you do it right. It cured my chronic fatigue but I did it all-in, hardcore style. 6 month cycle with only a few 3-7 day breaks. With every ancillary carefully selected for copper-toxicity control, alarms so I'd never miss a dose, etc. I never had amalgam but by God there must've been something in my body because damn it worked.

 

I dosed ALA and DMSA every 3 hours around the clock for months on end. Started at low doses and worked up to 600mg ALA / 100mg DMSA e3h. Falling blood levels cause redistribution, so the key is to not let them fall, ever, until you inevitably have to go off -- at which point there will be damage, but the goal is to have the healing net-outweigh the damage. Break-even healing/damage ratio is achieved between hours 60 and 72 of a cycle. Once you make it that long, you know you've succeeded for that round, and you should continue to milk it as long as you can handle to get that ratio up. Thus, long rounds/cycles are much more effective, but harder to deal with side-effect wise... and it carries the risk of oxidative stress from the DMSA, and copper toxicity from the ALA (avoid eating nuts while on ALA). I didn't really have side-effects. As soon as you miss a dose, that round is over, you need to take a break, and if the missed dose occurred before hour 72, the cycle was basically not successful.

It can be especially helpful if you have anything significantly greater than perfectly healthy amounts of mercury, lead, arsenic, cadmium, and even iron in your system. The copper overload induced by the ALA very effectively purges iron from the body -- something that may be quite helpful if one has eaten a lot of iron-fortified foods in their life.

The reason chelation studies haven't shown much in the way of curing chronic fatigue is simply because they dosed every 8 hours. DMSA must be dosed every 4 (or less) hours to prevent falling levels, which alone is responsible for the redistribution damage and prevents the healing/damage ratio from being a positive number.

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You can get it done a lot faster if you do long rounds. Let me explain...

The minimum round-length is 72 hours in order to be reasonably certain that the healing/damage ratio is a positive number. The longer the round, the higher that number. Falling systemic levels of the double-thiol chelator are what cause redistribution, which is why you have to take the chelator so frequently, and why longer rounds are far more efficient -- your levels don't fall until the very end of each round, when you stop taking it, therefore you should minimize the amount of times you have to do this, via going as long as you can handle. The only reason not to do them for long stretches is an inability to handle it.

A 3-4 day round and a 3-4 day break every week will clean out sufficient mercury/lead within 2-5 years (closer to 1-2 years if you did 1-2 weeks on / 1-2 weeks off) -- the same thing can be achieved with one 6-month round, though you shouldn't actually do it that long. I basically intended to do one 6-month round but there were a few 5-7 day breaks (each initiated upon accidentally missing a dose) so it ended up being essentially three 2-month rounds, in the end -- that's all it took. I recommend planning on a 6 month round and just taking a 7-14 day break each and every time you inevitably accidentally miss a dose.

And btw, each 50% increase in dose results in an 18% faster rate of mercury excretion... Since taking larger doses results in comparatively less redistribution, taking larger doses (ramp up as you can handle) will not only speed the process up a bit, it may also have a bit of a buffer effect, protecting you from times when you miss a dose by 30-60min, which should rarely happen, nonetheless. For the majority of my largely-uninterrupted 6-month cycle, I was taking 600mg ALA and 100mg DMSA every 3 hours.

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E.g. If you take 100mg ALA every 3 hours for 72 hours running, that would be a 3-day (72 hour) round (or cycle), which is the absolute minimum length the round must be, since you damage yourself every time you come off, but damage while on-cycle (on-round) is minimal -- it's almost all heavy metal excretion (no redistribution) while on-round. The break even healing/damage point occurs after 60-72 hours (of consistently taking the chelator every 3 hours), so it would be to your benefit to do rounds much longer than this. The fastest route would be a 6 month round, but I don't think that's ever been done and it's not advised. I essentially did three 2-month rounds with a 1-week break between each.

Doing it for long stretches at a time significantly decreases the total amount of time you'll have to spend on-round before you clear out all the heavy metals you need to. However, copper toxicity can be a problem with ALA, so you'll need to take both zinc and molybdenum 4x/day -- twice a day is insufficient. Even taking 7.5mg zinc and 250mcg molybdenum (the appropriate amounts) 4x a day each will not stave off copper toxicity forever. And oxidative stress can be an issue with DMSA so you have to take antioxidants.

Does that clarify?

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Those were all the relevant posts I could find. That's literally all I know, but I'm happy to answer further questions if you need clarification. Again I don't know all there is to know about the subject, so I doubt I'll be able to provide anything else. But perhaps there were some posts I missed where I went into some other details. Good luck!

 

Remember the zinc and molybdenum 4x/d when using ALA. I'm not sure if it's best to take breaks on the zinc/moly in between rounds, or to keep using them off round -- that is one example of something I am unclear on myself -- there seem to be pros and cons to each option -- it's very likely neither choice is gonna kill you though. I'm not the arbiter of truth on this.

^^

... EDIT 5/24/2021 — additional explanation for the above paragraph. After your final round you should definitely continue to take the zinc/moly 4x/d for some time (probably at least a month), to purge residual copper, which will likely be quite high at this point. When you’re no longer planning on taking more ALA, there’s no reason not to do this... ALA causes some zinc overload but not nearly as bad as it does copper overload, and nothing purges copper quite like zinc... On ALA, you want to take just enough zinc to keep copper retention somewhat under control (30-50mg daily in 4 divided doses; it actually won’t even prevent copper overload, it’ll just slow it down, lol), and too much zinc will just exacerbate ALA’s zinc retention, so it’s a balance... But once ALA is no longer in the picture, if your copper is high, you can continue the zinc for a little while with generally no issue. Since the zinc is basically a limited resource in the scenario of ALA use (as in you shouldn’t take too much of it because it’s only a matter of time before your zinc levels become too high as well), additional means of reducing copper retention would be very wise, such as molybdenum (1-2mg a day in 4 divided doses), stimulating bile flow, and avoiding dietary sources of copper (such as nuts) — the zinc is not optional though, as those options don’t come close to the anti-copper affect zinc has (related to the metallothionein mechanism).

There is some evidence that ALA depletes biotin in a hazardous way if you don’t consume extra in the diet or by supplementation.

 

And never EVER stop DMSA before ALA. It will cause net redistribution into the brain. Stop them both at the exact same time or stop the ALA before the DMSA. If DMSA didn't have a slightly longer half-life than ALA, stopping them both together would not be safe -- but DMSA leaves the body slightly slower, so it is safe to stop them concurrently. This would not be the case if using extended release ALA, but you should never use extended-release ALA to begin with, since the absorption rate differs at different points along the digestive tract, and it hasn't been studied enough. Do not use extended-release anything in chelation.

I don't know this, but I have an intuition that it may be prudent to start with a few DMSA-only rounds to reduce body mercury content, so that when you eventually introduce ALA, it won't start with the potential, temporary issue of a net increase in brain mercury -- though even if you did start with ALA, that issue would only happen if mercury concentration was greater in body than across blood brain barrier, and even if that was so, the issue would of course only be temporary -- after all, you're aiming to eventually get essentially ALL of it out, indiscriminately from everywhere. But I'd imagine even temporary increases of mercury in the brain are not desirable. This is a bit of a nod, it seems, away from ALA-only rounds, at least in the beginning, but Andy Cutler didn't mention that issue, to my knowledge (idk maybe he did), and he probably knows best. So I wouldn't worry about it.

And if you want to go by the book (so to speak), time on should equal time off. That's not what I did, but that's what I'd advise as a measure of safety.

Edited May 24, 2021 by The0Self

[Ora]

The 600mg ala dose sounds dangerous. Cutler never recommended more than 100mg because anything past that is only like 2-3% increase in effectiveness, while being more dangerous

[The0Self]

4 hours ago, Ora said:

The 600mg ala dose sounds dangerous. Cutler never recommended more than 100mg because anything past that is only like 2-3% increase in effectiveness, while being more dangerous

False, actually. All I can say is you must not have read everything he wrote on forums.

False on the other thing too; each 50% increase in dose results in an 18% faster rate of mercury excretion.

Edited May 24, 2021 by The0Self

[The0Self]

In case in wasn’t in my post, ALA alone chelates mercury from the brain. Most of what I posted was the deeper aspects of it.

[Space]

@The0Self Nice report. I've currently done 6 rounds, most with DMSA and ALA. Already feel significantly better in a number of ways. Although I have started with a very very low dose of ALA (1mg) because I had amalgams and have had quite bad symptoms prior to starting this. So I plan on taking it super slow. My next round will be 12.5mg DMSA with 2mg ALA.

[The0Self]

5 hours ago, Space said:

@The0Self Nice report. I've currently done 6 rounds, most with DMSA and ALA. Already feel significantly better in a number of ways. Although I have started with a very very low dose of ALA (1mg) because I had amalgams and have had quite bad symptoms prior to starting this. So I plan on taking it super slow. My next round will be 12.5mg DMSA with 2mg ALA.

Glad to hear it! Sounds perfect. Perhaps stretch the rounds out longer as you’re able. You certainly might need to start with either 3-on/4-off or 4-on/10-off for quite some time, but that’s going to be brutally slow compared with 14-on/14-off, which seems to provide a great balance of rapidity and mildness. I started with about 10mg DMSA and 10mg ALA e3h.

Livingsupplements.com is probably the best source. At least it was back when I did it years ago. Might do some more just in case the psychedelic research chemicals and foods I’ve ingested since then collectively contained significant mercury; lead; arsenic; cadmium.

Lower doses such as yours are still quite effective, since increases in dose do not result in anywhere near linear increases in excretion rate. I’ve heard of people who were so mercury toxic, even 1mg ALA had them contemplating calling 911... so yeah, start slow. I luckily never even had side effects — from 10mg all the way to 600mg e3h — not even a single bit, lol — pretty sure that’s not typical, though it does happen.

[Space]

3 hours ago, The0Self said:

Glad to hear it! Sounds perfect. Perhaps stretch the rounds out longer as you’re able. You certainly might need to start with either 3-on/4-off or 4-on/10-off for quite some time, but that’s going to be brutally slow compared with 14-on/14-off, which seems to provide a great balance of rapidity and mildness. I started with about 10mg DMSA and 10mg ALA e3h.

Livingsupplements.com is probably the best source. At least it was back when I did it years ago. Might do some more just in case the psychedelic research chemicals and foods I’ve ingested since then collectively contained significant mercury; lead; arsenic; cadmium.

Lower doses such as yours are still quite effective, since increases in dose do not result in anywhere near linear increases in excretion rate. I’ve heard of people who were so mercury toxic, even 1mg ALA had them contemplating calling 911... so yeah, start slow. I luckily never even had side effects — from 10mg all the way to 600mg e3h — not even a single bit, lol — pretty sure that’s not typical, though it does happen.

Interesting reading your comments about doing longer rounds. I've been doing 64-72 hour rounds currently, with 3 on 4 off approach.

I haven't been experiencing too many side effects on round either. Although last round I did feel like shit on the second day and had some bad brain fog. But I wasn't sure if it was just the food I ate or something. The symtoms cleared up on the 3rd day and off round I feel fantastic tbh.

[The0Self]

15 minutes ago, Space said:

Interesting reading your comments about doing longer rounds. I've been doing 64-72 hour rounds currently, with 3 on 4 off approach.

I haven't been experiencing too many side effects on round either. Although last round I did feel like shit on the second day and had some bad brain fog. But I wasn't sure if it was just the food I ate or something. The symtoms cleared up on the 3rd day and off round I feel fantastic tbh.

Yeah it’s as if the healing really begins at around hour 60-72. You can keep it going longer for a much smoother detox, since every time you go off, redistribution occurs — longer rounds minimize the number of instances where redistribution occurs, relative to the total time spent on cycle. Andy Cutler pointed to the healing/damage ratio on forums a lot — it only becomes a positive number just prior to the 72 hour mark, and then every additional day is basically money in the bank with pure healing essentially if the process is seen as a whole. I’d suggest starting with 4 on / 4 off. 3 days is cutting it a little close — it’s “leaving money on the table,” so to speak — unless you physically can’t handle the symptoms or sleep interruptions going any longer.

Edited May 24, 2021 by The0Self

[Ora]

13 hours ago, The0Self said:

False, actually. All I can say is you must not have read everything he wrote on forums.

False on the other thing too; each 50% increase in dose results in an 18% faster rate of mercury excretion.

I only read the books. But looking around it foes seem some people are dosing around 300 as their max dose. Apparently it's based on your weight and some guy said he's 200lbs and his max would come to 300mg. 

I may be wrong, but I feel like he made special caution for people not to ramp up their dosage by more than 5-15mg each time and to make sure they feel no fatigue and other symptoms before moving to the next level or risk stirring up too much metals and over burdening the liver and pathways of elimination.

[The0Self]

41 minutes ago, Ora said:

I only read the books. But looking around it foes seem some people are dosing around 300 as their max dose. Apparently it's based on your weight and some guy said he's 200lbs and his max would come to 300mg. 

I may be wrong, but I feel like he made special caution for people not to ramp up their dosage by more than 5-15mg each time and to make sure they feel no fatigue and other symptoms before moving to the next level or risk stirring up too much metals and over burdening the liver and pathways of elimination.

You are correct. But Andy Cutler definitely did mention at least once that "600mg for 2 months" is probably fine. But he was just speculating. I wasn't planning on doing just that lol but after building up and experiencing no side effects that is exactly what I eventually did -- 3 times. Not saying anyone else should do it -- just saying how I did it. Perhaps you can even pick up on it in the comments I copied and pasted in this post...but these indeed were mostly responses where I was self aware that the doses are at first glance, very high, and the rounds lengths are, again at first glance, very long. I even indicated it was a rather hardcore approach. I didn't just recklessly use those doses and lengths right out of the gates though. Although, even Cutler indicated many times, albeit usually indirectly, that longer is generally better. Higher doses aren't necessarily better, but longer rounds usually are, though of course, within reason and depending on the situation.

Edited May 24, 2021 by The0Self

[Gregp]

@The0Self I thought if you get no side effects from 200mg ALA then your clean? But you got no side effects anyway at much larger doses?

I am now testing 100mg ALA.

[The0Self]

15 minutes ago, Gregp said:

@The0Self I thought if you get no side effects from 200mg ALA then your clean? But you got no side effects anyway at much larger doses?

I am now testing 100mg ALA.

I didn't get side-effects at any dose even a single bit. Maybe slightly increased energy lol. Apparently not everyone gets them, though I probably didn't have much heavy metal in my system -- I just wanted to get all traces out. It seemed to have clear positive effects on the psychedelic experience, meditation, fatigue, etc. Also it seems it made astral projections far less frequent, which could be considered a profoundly negative side-effect, but astral projections are associated with REM sleep, which I as a narcoleptic have to pass through every night before losing consciousness, and the chelation seemed to mitigate the effects of narcolepsy.

[Gregp]

@The0Self Thanks! Since 100mg after 3 days chelating every 3 hours doesn't give any side effects,  I nearly wanted to stop trying chelating.

So this effect keeps on working after these 6 months. How much fatigue did it lessen? From a 7 to a 6 on a scale of 10, or more?

I have a feeling studying is going way more difficult than is had like 10 years ago. When I take a bit of amodafinil I feel good, but i prefer not taking such stuff.

[The0Self]

5 hours ago, Gregp said:

@The0Self Thanks! Since 100mg after 3 days chelating every 3 hours doesn't give any side effects,  I nearly wanted to stop trying chelating.

So this effect keeps on working after these 6 months. How much fatigue did it lessen? From a 7 to a 6 on a scale of 10, or more?

I have a feeling studying is going way more difficult than is had like 10 years ago. When I take a bit of amodafinil I feel good, but i prefer not taking such stuff.

No problem! I’d say energy went from a 6-7 (out of 10) average and sometimes a 2, to an 8-9 avg and sometimes a 5. The extremes of tiredness were basically eliminated. And less hallucinations upon going to sleep (narcolepsy). And contemplation became more effective but that could have happened despite the chelation.

Its hard to judge before and after. The main thing is I just “felt better” to a degree.

Edited May 25, 2021 by The0Self

[legendary]

Thanks for posting.

I will start chelating with ALA this weekend. I chose to hold off on DMSA for a number of reasons (difficult to find and source, ALA only chelation can also be a good starting point -Rebecca Rust Lee).

[The0Self]

2 hours ago, legendary said:

Thanks for posting.

I will start chelating with ALA this weekend. I chose to hold off on DMSA for a number of reasons (difficult to find and source, ALA only chelation can also be a good starting point -Rebecca Rust Lee).

https://livingsupplements.com/

[legendary]

4 hours ago, The0Self said:

https://livingsupplements.com/

Yep. I have also been checking them out:)

[Gregp]

@The0Self Sure its not because ALA helps with burning glucose? Because you helped the mitochondria? Are you already a long time of the ALA and do the results stay? I don't care to much how it helps, but if it keeps helping than its fine.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Gregp

[The0Self]

5 hours ago, Gregp said:

@The0Self Sure its not because ALA helps with burning glucose? Because you helped the mitochondria? Are you already a long time of the ALA and do the results stay? I don't care to much how it helps, but if it keeps helping than its fine.

It only helps insulin sensitivity a slight amount, and not even as much as whey protein and exercise, so it probably had nothing to do with that. It certainly does take mercury out of the body, so it was probably that. It has been around 3 years. Still good.

[Gregp]

@The0Self Thnxs. Just to be sure. Its quite some effort waking up in the night to put in the stuff. But if it brings the result like you have, then it will be more than worth it!