Are we merely thoughts that are afraid of ceasing to exist?

[RMQualtrough]

When a thought comes and goes from our mind, where does it go? What does it "reincarnate as"?

It goes nowhere and reincarnates as nothing, it simply vanishes because it was never truly real.

Is that what our "selves" are? Are we merely a thought that has the capacity to be afraid of cessation?

[VeganAwake]

2 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

When a thought comes and goes from our mind, where does it go? What does it "reincarnate as"?

It goes nowhere and reincarnates as nothing, it simply vanishes because it was never truly real.

Is that what our "selves" are? Are we merely a thought that has the capacity to be afraid of cessation?

Are you asking?

Has the homo sapiens mind evolved to the extent that it now has the capacity to become an entity unto itself, and therefore believes itself to be real and does not want to die.

Maybe it deep down subconsciously knows it isn't real and tries extra hard to prove its reality.

When identified as it, it seems to have an actual physical effect, so it seems more than just a thought... when identified as it, it becomes an actual experience in the body as well.

That experience is, I am here, I am real and everything else is out there and I need to defend myself.

Maybe just maybe but who would know ❤

 

 

[The0Self]

The truth? Well it's not the truth, but it's a message. An ungraspable but unbelievably simple message: there is no message.

The message:

First, remember, there is no message. Here's the message:

 

You're everything appearing as (being) a claim/experience/Be-Lie-(I)f to be something else.

You are everything appearing as the experience of being something other than everything. For no reason.

In other words, everything being nothing is all there is.

You are: "in order to."

Notice there is (you are) always a claim: something needs to happen -- I need to live -- I need to die -- we need to save the planet -- I need to brush my teeth -- people need to go to school in order to learn my worldview -- doesn't matter... If you are there, there will be the experience/claim: something needs to happen.

But of course, you know deep down, nothing needs to happen. So how about that claim? Is it real? What now?

 

That's it. But there isn't an "it."

You will never get that there's nothing to get.

Edited May 23, 2021 by The0Self

[RMQualtrough]

16 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

Are you asking?

Has the homo sapiens mind evolved to the extent that it now has the capacity to become an entity unto itself, and therefore believes itself to be real and does not want to die.

Maybe it deep down subconsciously knows it isn't real and tries extra hard to prove its reality.

When identified as it, it seems to have an actual physical effect, so it seems more than just a thought... when identified as it, it becomes an actual experience in the body as well.

That experience is, I am here, I am real and everything else is out there and I need to defend myself.

Maybe just maybe but who would know ❤

To me I think I am considering it beyond the norm slightly, since I know people often see each other as "pockets" of consciousness. In other words, something like bubbles inside a giant stream, where that consciousness "belongs" to the person.

I've also seen analogies of a cup scooping water out of the ocean.

So in these cases, upon death some part of "them" goes back into the All.

But what if "they" are no more real than a thought? What if there is no pocket of consciousness that belongs to us? Only an illusion of it being so, while in reality each "individual" bubble of consciousness is in fact merely thoughts. And there IS no separated bubbles of consciousness at all...

It's merely a bunch of thoughts (us) all happening simultaneously. What happens to a character in a dream when you stop dreaming of them? They don't "return" anywhere, because they aren't real individuals. They are just a thought.

So upon death there will be no "return to the Source". We vanish like dream characters.

[Tim R]

@RMQualtrough

2 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

When a thought comes and goes from our mind, where does it go? What does it "reincarnate as"?

It goes nowhere and reincarnates as nothing, it simply vanishes because it was never truly real.

"Thought" is a thought. Thought is a kind of self-sustaining illusion. So is "mind". Because "mind", i.e. "thought" are identical.

Mind is thought, thought is mind.

Thought / mind are somewhat like this:

Would you say there is a triangle?

Of course not. There is no "it". Only the appearance of there being any triangle. 

2 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

Is that what our "selves" are? Are we merely a thought that has the capacity to be afraid of cessation?

You are as much of a "self" as there is a triangle

How could the triangle seize to exist when it wasn't real in the first place?

[RMQualtrough]

@Tim R Right so, I want to try to logic-proof this.

If space is not ultimate reality then separation of any kind is part of the illusion, it is merely dreamed up. Fundamental reality is not inside space and without space it is impossible to create separation (it would be like trying to fit multiple pixels into one pixel). Space and everything in it is a hologram of sorts. Ultimate reality outside of space would exist perhaps as something like a singularity?

So every single thought is existent inside a singularity. There cannot be separation at all. And time also, everything must exist immediately and at once.

Without time or the separation allowed for by space, everything exists at once and AS one. In a singularity. Consciousness can't be "divided" because division requires space. You can't divide 0 into multiple parts. First you need to create space.

That is contrary to some Hindu mythos where Brahman has himself split by Maya or w.e. into various little pieces. There can't be pieces separated without space.

Uhmmmm... So the sensation that you have been you since birth is merely a narrative of the brain. Brains are made of matter, AKA made of "universe", and the universe is derived from what we are proposing exists outside of it (consciousness). The experience of being you comes with the illusion of being confined to you because like two hard drives in a computer, each drive only stores information relating to itself. When the electricity (Consciousness) experiences hard drive #1, it makes an "experience of hard drive 1", and "experience of hard drive 1" is an experience of everything stored on the drive. The drive does not store data from hard drive 2, so when "experience of hard drive 1" happens, it must also by extension create an experience of "NOT being hard drive 2" even though the electric is also experiencing hard drive 2 concurrently.

Edited May 23, 2021 by RMQualtrough

[Tim R]

@RMQualtrough Sorry, but I'm not sure how all that relates to your initial question or to what I wrote. Try to introduce only as few variables as possible into any explanation/conceptualization. 

[RMQualtrough]

Just now, Tim R said:

@RMQualtrough Sorry, but I'm not sure how all that relates to your initial question or to what I wrote. Try to introduce only as few variables as possible into any explanation/conceptualization. 

I'm breaking down the "individuation" premise, which is popular in a lot of nondual traditions, which sort of suggest consciousness exists in a manner similar to perhaps a puzzle, where the pieces are actually separate while the picture is whole.

So when a person dies, they theorize they go back into the all and are spat back out as a new life or whatever.

Without individuation there is no "going back" into the all. Only cessation. The puzzle picture isn't separated at all, it is completely whole.

Something which exists outside of space has to be condensed into a singularity, would that be a correct fact? So individuation would not even be possible at all.

[Tim R]

3 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

Without individuation there is no "going back" into the all. Only cessation. The puzzle picture isn't separated at all, it is completely whole.

@RMQualtrough Yes. You can't unite anything that wasn't divided in the first place.

Even to speak of "cessation" is already saying to much, because cessation implies division. 

7 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

So individuation would not even be possible at all.

For there to be the sense of "unity" (/nonduality) there must at least be the possibility of the illusion of division (thought).

Your feeling of being an individual, of being cut off from the universe, of separation in any way shape or form, that feeling is the exact same as nonduality. There is no difference at all. 

Precisely because there is no real division, there can exist the illusion of division. You wouldn't know what you meant by "reality" unless you also knew what you meant by "unreality"(/"illusion"). 

[RMQualtrough]

@Tim R Right, so ideas like reincarnation must be false? If there are no individual pockets of consciousness belonging to us (foam on a tide, bubbles in a stream, etc), there is no special me-consciousness to come back.

It is only one gigantic "mind" brimming with infinite thoughts.

What then do you suppose is death like? As you said we sense there is division by illusion. There does exist an "experience of me". What is it like for the characters in a dream when the dream ends? What is it like for us when we end? Many deep altered states allow the person's brain function to remain online (which is how a person can store a memory of the experience)... We won't experience going back to the source because it is already whole and undivided... The relative experience of it sounds as though it might be like the Atheist proposition.

[The0Self]

8 minutes ago, Tim R said:

For there to be the sense of "unity" (/nonduality) there must at least be the possibility of the illusion of division (thought).

Your feeling of being an individual, of being cut off from the universe, of separation in any way shape or form, that feeling is the exact same as nonduality. There is no difference at all. 

Precisely because there is no real division, there can exist the illusion of division. You wouldn't know what you meant by "reality" unless you also knew what you meant by "unreality"(/"illusion").

^^

I am = in order to = something needs to happen.

Nothing needs to happen, clearly. So, what am I? Nothing. Everything appearing as not-everything. There is nothing other than everything, so not-everything is nothing. I am nothing; everything. But there's really no I. Only wholeness. I am is merely an empty claim. There is no one.

Edited May 23, 2021 by The0Self

[The0Self]

@RMQualtrough You're post title is basically correct. Mainly the word "merely." I am is so thin, it's not even happening. It is nothing more than the claim that it is happening (I am experiencing). That's literally all it is. Infinitely unreal.

[Tim R]

@RMQualtrough I feel like you're a bit too much caught up in ideas and conceptions.

17 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

Right, so ideas like reincarnation must be false?

What about the idea "house"? Is that a false idea? 

[RMQualtrough]

2 minutes ago, Tim R said:

@RMQualtrough I feel like you're a bit too much caught up in ideas and conceptions.

What about the idea "house"? Is that a false idea? 

No that's a subjective term used to define something in the apparent physical world.

Reincarnation on the other hand is actually made impossible by this. If there is no separated little chunk of consciousness that you have ownership over, there is nothing to reincarnate or return to the "whole".

What is there to reincarnate? It's not even overthinking or a trick question. Literally WHAT reincarnates? There's nothing to reincarnate. Reincarnation requires there is some aspect special to you to work.

[Tim R]

2 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

Reincarnation on the other hand is actually made impossible by this. If there is no separated little chunk of consciousness that you have ownership over, there is nothing to reincarnate or return to the "whole".

What is there to reincarnate? It's not even overthinking or a trick question. Literally WHAT reincarnates? There's nothing to reincarnate. Reincarnation requires there is some aspect special to you to work.

Yes exactly, why did you even ask me??

[VeganAwake]

@RMQualtrough  You are onto something that was never actually hidden. Nice inquiry ?