How do you know that psychedelic-induced insights are not more delusion?

[Javfly33]

For example, In my last 5-meo-dmt "trip" I started releasing tension in my back and crying of joy Because I realized (as Consciousness) that I have lived my crushe's Life.

That made me joyful and releasing tension Because...that means I'm her, I'm not below her, which erased a little bit of the lack of self love shadow than my ego has.

However now thinking about it, I question the validity of the insight. 

1. How do I know it's true?

2. Isn't just another belief now?

3. Even in the experience, could as well be a delusion. I've read about non duality, so the trip shows and projects already my beliefs.

See this is the problem. Supposedly 5-meo-dmt state of awareness is such a high state. Yet I feel as lost and deluded as always. Unfortunately I don't seem to gain any lasting insights of truth from the trips. 

I do get very lasting ego-reduction effects, letting go, and openmindness from trips. But insights of truth? They seem as deluded as sober. 

[VeganAwake]

1 hour ago, Javfly33 said:

I started releasing tension in my back and crying of joy

You didn't release anything.

Releasing of tension seemed to occur and You claimed it as Your doing.

If You had control wouldn't You have released it a long time ago.

 

[RMQualtrough]

1 hour ago, Javfly33 said:

For example, In my last 5-meo-dmt "trip" I started releasing tension in my back and crying of joy Because I realized (as Consciousness) that I have lived my crushe's Life.

That made me joyful and releasing tension Because...that means I'm her, I'm not below her, which erased a little bit of the lack of self love shadow than my ego has.

However now thinking about it, I question the validity of the insight. 

1. How do I know it's true?

2. Isn't just another belief now?

3. Even in the experience, could as well be a delusion. I've read about non duality, so the trip shows and projects already my beliefs.

See this is the problem. Supposedly 5-meo-dmt state of awareness is such a high state. Yet I feel as lost and deluded as always. Unfortunately I don't seem to gain any lasting insights of truth from the trips. 

I do get very lasting ego-reduction effects, letting go, and openmindness from trips. But insights of truth? They seem as deluded as sober. 

You can prove there is no such thing as inferior or superior even in Materialism, since we are literally all "universe". You are no more important than a grain of sand but no less important than a solar system, because everything is merely a part of one universe.

I am universe you are universe rocks are universe. There's no better or worse these things only exist to a human mind. It is not objectively true.

So regardless of whether it is untrue or true, that element must be true.

[Leo Gura]

@Javfly33 How do you know you had a mother?

After all, it's just a belief and a memory at this point.

Notice how you abuse skepticism. You guys are seriously not getting this point.

Selective application of skepticism is abuse of skepticism and you do it without even a second thought.

What if your skepticism is a delusion?

[Javfly33]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Javfly33 How do you know you had a mother?

After all, it's just a belief and a memory at this point.

Notice how you abuse skepticism. You guys are seriously not getting this point.

Selective application of skepticism is abuse of skepticism and you do it without even a second thought.

What if your skepticism is a delusion?

@Leo Gura In my perspective, what your saying is that Consciousness, my crushe's Life, 5-meo-dmt is basically a delusion too.

The only real shit is the truth absolute perspective then.

But with that perspective you can't have an understanding of reality or a model or nothing basically Because that's not even a proper reality. That's just nothing.

 

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

The only real shit is the truth absolute perspective then.

The only real shit is this present moment. Here it is. Absolute Truth.

You are looking for your glasses all over your house, but they are on your face.

Until you understand that, you will never find your glasses.

[Salvijus]

Perhaps everything that you experience, every state you experience is a delusion. The only reality is That which is not experience. When all experience is dissolved then truth is left. Total nothingness. Cessation of all sense doors. Not a single thought or sensation like in deep sleep but still aware. I wonder if such experience is possible with psychedelics.

This rises a good question. For example, christians when they take psychedelics, they experience Jesus, angels and stuff. Hindus experience Shiva or Krishna. Those who read about dmt entities start meeting entities. There are some who watch too much matrix and then take psychedelics and say I've experienced that life is a computer simulation. Everything is not real. And they're super serious they even end up in mental hospital. I know one person like that.

So yes. I think potential for self-deception is a big one with psychedelics. The only thing you can trust is That which is not an experience. Because every experience is just a projection of your subconscious mind I think. 

I like what buddhist say that unless you polish your mind totally everything you see is not true. It's distorted with your own subconscious believes, likes and dislikes. The only way to know what is true is total purification/dissolution of the mind.

Idk. Makes sense to me.

Regards ?

Edited May 22, 2021 by Salvijus

[Javfly33]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The only real shit is this present moment. Here it is. Absolute Truth.

You are looking for your glasses all over your house, but they are on your face.

Until you understand that, you will never find your glasses.

I IMAGINED EVERYTHING LEO

I IMAGINED OTHER BEINGS I IMAGINED OTHER PLACES I IMAGINED OTHER "TIMES", I IMAGINED OTHER SENSATIONSI

I IMAGINED NON DUALITY AFTERWARDS IN THE DREAM TO START TO "REMEMBER" (a breadcrumb)

A COMPLEX TWISTED ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT HALLUCINATION TO END WITH ME REALIZING I AM ABSOLUTELY ONE .

i imagined EVERY THING of the dream

[VeganAwake]

What is this I character?

What is its source?

[Space]

@Javfly33 It really depends on the depth of the insight, the 'type' of the insight and the 'level' of consciousness you're at. First question, what was your dose and ROA?

At lower and mid doses of 5-MeO, the ego is still partially intact, even if only subtly. So the depth of the realisation is muddied and sort of perceived through the lense of the the ego mind. It took 30mg for 'me' to completely 100% dissolve all specs of ego. Still, I had some utterly profound realisations at these low and mid levels that I wouldn't consider 'delusional'. 

The type of insight is important. There can be more mid level insights, which can sometimes be slightly unclear and muddied with ego a bit. Then there is DIRECT CONSCIOUSNESS of the absolute (25-30mg), which is actually not an insight at all. It's a direct consciousness, actual Infinity being actual Infinity. There is ABSOLUTELY not a speck of doubt in a true direct consciousness. It's utterly unmistakable and undoubtable. Any doubt or scepticism is laughable at this point, and seen to be pure ego. It has totally dissolved along with the duality of language and symbols. All notion of a 'person' taking a 'psychedelic' has gone. There simply cannot be any doubt.

[Javfly33]

4 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

What is this I character?

What is its source?

ITS GOD

@Space I see what you saying.

Yes in my insight there was definitely ego. I think it was something as 25mg.

I didn't have an infinity direct Consciousness realization yet with 5-meo then. I'll have to keep trying.

However I think where you are trying to "point me out"

To the realization that I'm God and I imagined ABSOLUTELY everything? Including the concept of "other" person, "other" place, and "other" time?

To make the illusion absolutely believable and congruent? ☺️?

[Adamq8]

39 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Perhaps everything that you experience, every state you experience is a delusion. The only reality is That which is not experience. When all experience is dissolved then truth is left. Total nothingness. Cessation of all sense doors. Not a single thought or sensation like in deep sleep but still aware. I wonder if such experience is possible with psychedelics.

This rises a good question. For example, christians when they take psychedelics, they experience Jesus, angels and stuff. Hindus experience Shiva or Krishna. Those who read about dmt entities start meeting entities. There are some who watch too much matrix and then take psychedelics and say I've experienced that life is a computer simulation. Everything is not real. And they're super serious they even end up in mental hospital. I know one person like that.

So yes. I think potential for self-deception is a big one with psychedelics. The only thing you can trust is That which is not an experience. Because every experience is just a projection of your subconscious mind I think. 

I like what buddhist say that unless you polish your mind totally everything you see is not true. It's distorted with your own subconscious believes, likes and dislikes. The only way to know what is true is total purification/dissolution of the mind.

Idk. Makes sense to me.

Regards ?

You are creating a bias with cessations and "non experience" why would that be more true then a psychedelic state if you really look into it.

Ofcourse those states you speak of is important but so is a full blown ego death on psychedelics. 

There is no lowest or highest if you look, or less true or more true, atleast not when experience get recontextualized as true no matter the content of a particular experience

Experience comes and goes and there is no point holding on to any particular one.

And if you have not tried psychedelics it is not something you can imagine how it would be like trust me, there is nothing like it imo.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Adamq8

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Salvijus said:

Perhaps everything that you experience, every state you experience is a delusion.

You got it backwards, friend. Evey experience is Absolute Truth.

Cessation is not the measure of Truth. Truth is experience too. Truth is whatever is occurring at any moment. If you see these words on your screen, what you see must be Absolute Truth, otherwise how could it exist?

Quote

When all experience is dissolved then truth is left. Total nothingness. Cessation of all sense doors. Not a single thought or sensation like in deep sleep but still aware.

Form = formlessness

Formlessness does not have a monopoly on Truth or Reality.

Quote

I wonder if such experience is possible with psychedelics.

It is not necessary on psychedelics because your consciousness will cut right through all form and formless alike to grasp Oneness, Truth, God, and Love.

Quote

This rises a good question. For example, christians when they take psychedelics, they experience Jesus, angels and stuff. Hindus experience Shiva or Krishna. Those who read about dmt entities start meeting entities. There are some who watch too much matrix and then take psychedelics and say I've experienced that life is a computer simulation. Everything is not real. And they're super serious they even end up in mental hospital. I know one person like that.

You should actually try a psychedelic before making such claims about them.

Quote

The only thing you can trust is That which is not an experience.

Not true. You are stuck worshiping the idol of formlessness.

There is a higher awakening which will integrate your formlessness with all form (experience), so that you don't need to minimize any experience.

Quote

Because every experience is just a projection of your subconscious mind I think. 

Every experience is God's Mind.

Quote

I like what buddhist say that unless you polish your mind totally everything you see is not true. It's distorted with your own subconscious believes, likes and dislikes. The only way to know what is true is total purification/dissolution of the mind.

Idk. Makes sense to me.

Regards ?

How about you actually listen to Buddhism?

The Heart Sutra clearly tells you:

"Listen Sariputra, this Body itself is Emptiness and Emptiness itself is this Body. This Body is not other than Emptiness and Emptiness is not other than this Body. The same is true of Feelings, Perceptions, Mental Formations, and Consciousness. Listen Sariputra, all phenomena bear the mark of Emptiness." -- Heart Sutra

Cessation is not false. But it is not exclusively true. You are denying the most obvious: the Truth right before your eyes. That's quite the feat of denial

[RMQualtrough]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The only real shit is this present moment. Here it is. Absolute Truth.

You are looking for your glasses all over your house, but they are on your face.

Until you understand that, you will never find your glasses.

Lol slick analogy.

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

friend

Haha no, seriously. I wasn't serious about what I wrote. I just thought it's one perspective which makes sense, at least for me.

I personally like the idea that all experience, normal or supernormal is still a distortion of mind and is just as unreal like every experience. Only when you dissolve the mind you experience that which is beyond mind and matter. Only that can be true and not distorted by the mind. Buddhism stresses a lot that you can only a have a real taste of this beyond mind and matter phenomena in cessation where there is no experience left only awareness is there.

Well this you can argue if you want. I'm just saying what they are saying. I'm not a buddhist even lol. And I have no bias towards buddhism. I just think they make sense here. Also buddha sayes that every samadhi state is just entertainment for the ego. It doesn't necessary dissolve the mind. According to them only dissolving all experience of life is important. Total cessation. Everything else is just your imagination. When there's no imagination left then Truth remains. And that Truth is a state of cessation.

Well it makes sense my friends it makes sense to me a lot. Of cource I'm not attached to it much. You can say everything, every moment is absolute truth. Everything that comes from emptiness is emptiness. No duality formless = form etc. It's the same thing. Just a different side of the same coin. I enjoy all perspectives

My personal theory about psychedelics (which could be totally wrong btw) is that they don't dissolve the ego they trancend the ego. They push awareness temporarely by releasing a lot of energy from the Ojas above the mind and you experience this beyond mind and matter phenomena. In that moment you get an experience of absolute truth without dissolving experience. And at the same time you know that all experience is not true and imaginary. It's just a sensation of god's mind. That's what self-inquiry does in a way.

One other thing that buddha sayes is even if you get this experiance of 8jhana of self-realization of god and everything is not real etc., you are still stuck in this game and are forced to experience life untill you dissolve this imagination into nothingness. Realization of god is not enough to end life, you have to dissolve all imagination, all mind. When there's no more experience, total cessation, that's the end of suffering, end of life, end of mind, end of creation. Buddhism can sound pretty dark sometimes lol.

I'm just pondering stuff here. Don't take it seriously

Regards ? @Leo Gura @Adamq8

Edited May 22, 2021 by Salvijus

[Gidiot]

@Salvijus I gotta a feeling it’s been repeated before but couldn’t you say emptiness is more the pure form of truth and all experience and sensations form etc are truth but “less pure” because it’s not void,  I think Leo is trying to say that they are both equal and maybe they are in non duality but to a spiritual seeker I can see why teacher have referred to experience as untrue because it’s not void but really it is if you go deep enough 

 

I really resonate with what Leo is saying, Sadhguru and other gurus dismiss psychs but I think you gotta trust what they are showing you because if you don’t that’s the definition of insane trying to deny your experience.

 

it’s hard to say x or y that mean something but the patterns and similarities of experience  are too strong between users.

you can’t say trust your “sober” experience and deny yourself the truth of what you’re conscious of in an altered state.  
 

however you can certainly have dreams just like psych trips that leave you more confused or trips or dreams which teach you a lesson or send you a message, they are very similar states of consciousness to me and I just don’t think you can deny someone’s dreams or psych trips as irrelevant when the very reality we base our life’s around is illusory itself.

[Salvijus]

12 minutes ago, Gidiot said:

@Salvijus I gotta a feeling it’s been repeated before but couldn’t you say emptiness is more the pure form of truth and all experience and sensations form etc are truth but “less pure” because it’s not void,  I think Leo is trying to say that they are both equal and maybe they are in non duality but to a spiritual seeker I can see why teacher have referred to experience as untrue because it’s not void but really it is if you go deep enough

Hi @Gidiot

Yes of course. 

When you say everything is not real, the other side of the coin is everything is an absolute truth, haha

Adi shankara 3 statements: 

1. "World is not real"

2. "Brahman alone is real"

3. "Brahman is the world" (say whaaat?) Lol.

so it's just different ways of looking. I thought I've covered it already in my above posts if you read carefully 

Regards ? @Gidiot

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Salvijus

[Adamq8]

@Salvijus Yeah I understand you but it still has to come full circle into the realization that life is as well as much truth as anything else since there is no distinction made in actuality only mind might do it.

But I somehow i do feel that if full 100% cessation forever would be possible then there would not be this here.

If GOD could cease itself it would strangeloop into that it is full aware again if you get me ?

Sounds a bit like theravadin(spelling?) Buddhism that stresses more or less "spiritual suicide " but it was not really the Buddhas teachings, anatta for example was more a statement meant : This is not my soul that is not my soul etc. Not that Self is unreal. 

The yellow robes theravadins teaches " this is all there ism"

IE the psycho physical is all that there is.

It comes as no suprise that thousands of years old teachings gets corrupted. 

Buddha was asked what to call his path or teaching and he said it would be called :

Brahma jama or something like that, which means path to Brahman or Path to the Absolute.

He taught liberation but not really spiritual suicide. 

He was more in line with Advaita Vedanta then not.

But who cares right ?‍♂️

And on the psychedelics part even science says it shutdowns the default mode network more or less, IE ego process. 

But for that to happend you need a pretty high dose usually but some people can get it on 150 mcg lsd but not in my case.

Ego death can be a tough nut to stomach when it happens as well but afterwards it is bliss more or less.

It shows alot i feel for how the death process will unfold or atleast the beginning part of it.

So it is more to learn to stomach to die.

But 10 trips etc is not enough either to get a grasp on it.

But psychedelics is not the end all be all either, contemplation/meditation/self inquiry is necessary imo.

Cheers mate ?

[Salvijus]

@Adamq8 you make some good valid points. ?

6 minutes ago, Adamq8 said:

@Salvijus Yeah I understand you but it still has to come full circle into the realization that life is as well as much truth as anything else since there is no distinction made in actuality only mind might do it.

But I somehow i do feel that if full 100% cessation forever would be possible then there would not be this here.

If GOD could cease itself it would strangeloop into that it is full aware again if you get me ?

I like this

Cheers! ?

[VeganAwake]

Deprogram; unlearn; unknowing; not knowing; die before you die; empty cup.

These are pointing to the end of using a programed or conditioned thought process to attempt to know.