About free will and choice

[Someone here]

I come back to this topic of free will and choice and I'm stil stuck in the perspective that choice is completely illusion. 

there is no choice. You are not choosing anything. And I mean anything. Everything. 

You are not in control of what's happening right now . Its easy to prove if you try to imagine the thought you're going to have in the next 10 seconds.

In a sense.. I'm not writing this.. and you are not reading this. It's all being played and it's all karma. Circumstances are infinitely complex and destiny is inevitble. As the awareness watching the movie.. we have zero influence over the plot.

"You're not doing it, it's doing you" - Alan Watts

 

You didn't choose your birth as this particular human.. In this particular world.. In this particular part of the world.. In this particular Era.. To this particular family.. With this particular genetics.. With this particular gender.. With this particular look.. Yada yada..you didn't choose the language that you are speaking.. You didn't choose your upbringing.. You didn't choose your cultural conditioning.. You don't choose your heart beat.. You don't choose your thoughts.. You don't choose your actions.. You don't choose your reactions.. You don't choose what you agree with.. You don't choose what you disagree with.. You don't choose your beliefs.. your desires.. your traits your moods.. your habits.. your chances.. your anything lol...simply because you are not real as an individual. you yourself are a thought or at a best a continuity of conditioned thoughts been shaped by your environment. 

 

Any new and nuanced thoughts on the topic of free will appreciated 

 

[ivankiss]

Weather there is (choice) or is not, is a duality.

Contemplate; infinite will.

Imo; you're stuck on neti-neti. Not realizing that it's only a polar response to you previously believing that there is, in fact, free will and choice. You're trying to prove that belief false. Which is unnecessary. Simply recognize the duality and don't choose sides. Remain in the center.

Hope some of that helps.

[myLove]

Speak for yourself, as God i have infinite free will. I designed this thread from scratch.

[Someone here]

@ivankiss I guess it comes from observing direct experience plus contemplating what aspects of my life I did actually choose. And as I pointed out in OP. From birth to death.. it seems like I'm on a ride in which I'm not the driver of.  Did you make any choice to find read this thread today? 

I guess when you analyze the moment of taking the action.. It turns out there is no order or reason behind our thoughts and actions. It's all so random and chaos. 

It also has to do with the illusion of the "chooser". When it's seen cleary that the sense of individuality is illusion.. It's hard to then make a case that "you" have a choice when there is no you to begin with.(as a separate entity). 

 

 

[Someone here]

@myLove OK god. Cool 

[traveler]

4 minutes ago, Someone here said:

It's all so random and chaos. 

Preach?? 

Chaos appearing ordered. Amazing

[ivankiss]

@Someone here That is why I'm pointing towards 'infinite will' ? 

What appears to be random, or chaotic, as well as what appears to be in perfect order is... (your) Will. 

[Someone here]

@ivankiss so are you saying that everything that appears to be not my choice as the small self is actually my choice as the big Self?  So when we identify ourselves as the whole universe everything becomes our will?  Is it a matter of the correct identity? 

[Fran11]

I find it useful to distinguish beetween Free Will and Will.

Free Will I would define as total freedom to choose any one out of infinite possiblities. This is obviously false within the context of this finite dream.

But Will is a much more subtle notion. I would define it as consciousness' intrinsic capacity to influence the unfolding of the dream. This capacity has levels and it's in direct proportion to it's wakefulness. The more awake, the more conscious control.

What you are debunking here is your own idea about how Will works, and it's loaded with many assumptions. 

Will does not depend upon the existance of an individual self. 

Will has nothing to do with your capacity to guess your future thoughts.

And it's not some gross mechanical process in which you are somehow displayed many options out of which you pick one. It's way more direct and magical than that. Realizing Will is more of a mystical experience than an intellectual excersise. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Fran11

[ivankiss]

@Someone here It is not a matter of identity - I wouldn't say so.

Simply the 'degree' to which you're awake or conscious.

[Ananta]

58 minutes ago, Someone here said:

there is no choice. You are not choosing anything. And I mean anything. Everything. 

You are not in control of what's happening right now

It depends from what perspective you are referring.

From "God's" perspective, you (the apparent person) are being done, so, no choice. From "your" perspective, you can do nothing but chose and making decisions daily. So, choice is a part of daily life. To sit and say, "Everything is God's will, I will do nothing" is still a choice!

We don't know what was to happen, until it happens or what lessons would be gained from decisions made until the experience has happened. So, by knowing that ultimately choice is an illusion, doesn't get you off the hook. You still need to think, contemplate and take action...or don't (still a decision was made)! 

When in doubt..."try" to do the next right thing.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Ananta

[Mu_]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

I come back to this topic of free will and choice and I'm stil stuck in the perspective that choice is completely illusion. 

there is no choice. You are not choosing anything. And I mean anything. Everything. 

You are not in control of what's happening right now . Its easy to prove if you try to imagine the thought you're going to have in the next 10 seconds.

In a sense.. I'm not writing this.. and you are not reading this. It's all being played and it's all karma. Circumstances are infinitely complex and destiny is inevitble. As the awareness watching the movie.. we have zero influence over the plot.

"You're not doing it, it's doing you" - Alan Watts

 

You didn't choose your birth as this particular human.. In this particular world.. In this particular part of the world.. In this particular Era.. To this particular family.. With this particular genetics.. With this particular gender.. With this particular look.. Yada yada..you didn't choose the language that you are speaking.. You didn't choose your upbringing.. You didn't choose your cultural conditioning.. You don't choose your heart beat.. You don't choose your thoughts.. You don't choose your actions.. You don't choose your reactions.. You don't choose what you agree with.. You don't choose what you disagree with.. You don't choose your beliefs.. your desires.. your traits your moods.. your habits.. your chances.. your anything lol...simply because you are not real as an individual. you yourself are a thought or at a best a continuity of conditioned thoughts been shaped by your environment. 

 

Any new and nuanced thoughts on the topic of free will appreciated 

 

If there is choice and it feels like it, why not act like it?  And if you don't know if there is choice, but it feels like it, why not act like?  And if it doesn't feel like there is choice, but you can make what feels like a choice when needed, why not act like it?  And if there actually isn't choice, but you seem to make choices, why think about it?

[VeganAwake]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

It also has to do with the illusion of the "chooser". When it's seen cleary that the sense of individuality is illusion.. It's hard to then make a case that "you" have a choice when there is no you to begin with.(as a separate entity). 

Bingo yahtzee...?

Seeing clearly is ? 

[Roy]

Free will doesn't exist, very easy to demonstrate it to people as well;

Get a piece of paper and pen, and write down the first movie that comes to mind, no deliberation.

Notice how the content of whatever movie it was, was completely unanticipated and random? It just happened, perhaps it was related to a recent memory, or experience you had today. Notice how that was also out of control.

Now extend the realization of this experience of happening, of thinking of a movie, to your entire existence.

Free will ain't there. It's all just pure happening.

[SpiritualAwakening]

The universe and therefore you are in complete order. To say it is disorder (chaos) would only mean that one is yet to perceive order, life in its Totality, the Whole. The disorder lies in perception, like one perceives a volcano erupting as disorder yet it aligns completely with the movement of the universe. To say there is no order also contradicts the notion of "not having free will". I agree and disagree with this, there is free will and there isn't. Free will is limited and all choices we are able to make within time/space have already been laid out for us to just make, however and whenever we choose to. For example saying "the way I am going to die is already set in stone" is a true and it's not because it's not one way, its multiple ways. You can get hit by a car or you can jump from a bridge, It's all been made available to just happen when it happens within TIME and within SPACE, hence the illusion.

[VeganAwake]

Decisions seem to occur.

But there's no one making them.

This recognition reveals that the dualistic notion of an individual with free will and choice is simply a misunderstanding.

[SpiritualAwakening]

37 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

Decisions seem to occur.

But there's no one making them.

This recognition reveals that the dualistic notion of an individual with free will and choice is simply a misunderstanding.

Let me say it like this, as long as thought identifies itself with sensation "i", will is born out of desire and action will most likely follow. In the absolute sense it's just happening and there is no free will, even though in absolute sense there is no distinction between the relative and the absolute. therefore we will always arrive at YES and NO

Edited May 22, 2021 by SpiritualAwakening

[VeganAwake]

24 minutes ago, SpiritualAwakening said:

Let me say it like this, as long as thought identifies itself with sensation "i", will is born out of desire and action will most likely follow. In the absolute sense it's just happening and there is no free will, even though in absolute sense there is no distinction between the relative and the absolute. therefore we will always arrive at YES and NO

Sensation, will, desire and action seem to occur.

But the individual that takes ownership or that it seems to occur for, is an illusion.

[Absolute]

1 hour ago, VeganAwake said:

Sensation, will, desire and action seem to occur.

But the individual that takes ownership or that it seems to occur for, is an illusion.

Read what @SpiritualAwakeningsaid again

Edited May 22, 2021 by Absolute

[VeganAwake]

7 hours ago, Absolute said:

Read what @SpiritualAwakeningsaid again

What's being pointed to transcends the dualistic idea of there even being a separate individual in which could have free will and choice.

So in that sense there is no way to arrive at a yes or no conclusion when the individual is plucked out of the equation.

❤