Is Leo Denying Others People's Experience?

[SQAAD]

After watching Leo's recent God-realisation video, i don't know what to make of some of the things he said...

 Leo has talked multiple times about how he is me and everyone else. He has talked that everyone is God and that as God i will experience everything.

After all this, now he is telling that everyone is imaginary and kinda denying that others even exist. Which i don't understand, i don't get all.

Saying that everything is imaginary is the same as saying that everything is real. It makes no difference. I can't know if Leo or my mum has a conscious experience or not but i think it is safe to assume that others do experience things also.

I think Leo sometimes doesn't give a good-enough explanation on some of his topics. I don't know what to make out of all this. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by SQAAD

[RMQualtrough]

The semantics used are not my preference, but I believe the meaning is that essentially, every living person and their experiences are every bit as imaginary as your thoughts.

Leo is imaginary, RMQualtrough is imaginary, you are imaginary, your thoughts and feelings are imaginary, my thoughts and feelings are imaginary.

We are merely all appearances inside of ONE consciousness and that consciousness is WHOLE.

I prefer to say that everything is equally real, and to openly and freely refer to you and I as separate etc.

[Mason Riggle]

55 minutes ago, SQAAD said:

Saying that everything is imaginary is the same as saying that everything is real.

Yes, this point is confused here a lot, I think. 

real/imaginary <--- Relative (Dual)

Imaginary (with a capital I) <--- Absolute (Non-dual)

When I dream at night, relative to the 'me' who seems 'real', the contents of the dream are 'imaginary', but they are 'really imaginary' in the same sense that there is 'really' a dreamer.  A duality between 'the dreamer' and 'the dream'. 

The 'me' who seems real, the dream, the contents of the dream... all Imaginary (don't get caught up with the word the way it's used in relative terms, because this 'Imaginary' is as 'Real' as it's ever gonna get).  One 'everything/nothing' imagining through 'duality' to be 'something'. 

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Thought Art]

Yeah this seems like a brain teaser to me too.

There is something wrong about the way he is explaining other people. Whether it's his actual metaphysics or just the way he is framing and explaining that.

Is Thought Art the only bubble of experience on the forum? I doubt it. 

The problem I notice here, is that even basic assumptions of reality down to it's core can be questioned. I have more questions than answers when it comes to deep metaphysical trivialities. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Thought Art

[charlie cho]

@SQAAD stop thinking. Leo's content tends to make you think too much in the head. Don't think your way through enlightenment. You think with your cunning intellect, you will ever succeed in spirituality? With a cold cunning mind, you will never reach the warmth of heaven. Just ignore what Leo had said. Ignore everything you are thinking. And just go on about your day. Do you have a passion? Do you have work to do? Just go for those things. Are you hungry now? Go eat. Do you wanna just chill and play the guitar? Just play the guitar. As simple as that. 

Only one caveat here. This is not to say to not think deeply about certain matters. Just keep it simple and stop being so complex about matters of enlightenment. Again, with such a cunning cold mind how can you dare think of reaching the heights of heaven? Heaven is for the warm hearted, not for the serpent like mind. Be simple. Don't be orient yourself with the cold mind. Orient your life with the warm heart. That is how you can appeal to heaven. Heaven does not reward calculative men and women. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by charlie cho

[lmfao]

Let's do it guys, we'll organise a conference of solipsists, and all of us can argue which one of us is really real 

http://www.watleyreview.com/2004/081704-3.html

This is some good satire 

Quote

Further complicating the matter is the assertion of the departmental secretary, Cindy Tremaine, who apparently told the dean that three hundred registration forms for the conference did in fact arrive in the mail.

"I gave Professor Selfridge the forms that came in every day, but he would always just stare at them and say he couldn't possibly attribute consciousness to the people signing up," said Tremaine. "He'd always start talking about putative conscious states and bridging gulfs and I don't know what else. I'm trying to transfer to the French department," she added in a conspiratorial whisper.

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by lmfao

[Breakingthewall]

Leo uses a lot that only you exist, others are imaginary, God has a multiple personality disorder, God is bored in his eternity and that is why he creates reality ... well, those have been his realizations. after a few years of going deep enough. It may be interesting to take them into account, but nothing more. only the ones you have count

[erik8lrl]

You as an ego and Leo and your mum are all having independent conscious experiences, but you as God IS all of the conscious and unconscious experience/existence combined.

[BipolarGrowth]

19 minutes ago, erik8lrl said:

You as an ego and Leo and your mum are all having independent conscious experiences, but you as God IS all of the conscious and unconscious experience/existence combined.

I think you have misunderstood what Leo is saying. I used to hold this belief you bring up as certain truth. The fact is that it is not certain at all. Leo is in the process of releasing an episode on solipsism. Everybody hang on for a minute. 
 

If you’re wise, the idea should not impact your interpersonal relationships in a negative way at all. It actually is a point which can create far more compassion if framed properly. I wish I had more time to explain in detail. I’m planning to make my own video about this topic for the forum soon. 

[Dodo]

2 hours ago, SQAAD said:

After watching Leo's recent God-realisation video, i don't know what to make of some of the things he said...

 Leo has talked multiple times about how he is me and everyone else. He has talked that everyone is God and that as God i will experience everything.

After all this, now he is telling that everyone is imaginary and kinda denying that others even exist. Which i don't understand, i don't get all.

Saying that everything is imaginary is the same as saying that everything is real. It makes no difference. I can't know if Leo or my mum has a conscious experience or not but i think it is safe to assume that others do experience things also.

I think Leo sometimes doesn't give a good-enough explanation on some of his topics. I don't know what to make out of all this. 

here is what Leo responded to me on another thread on this subject.

[erik8lrl]

@BipolarGrowth Nothing to do with misinterpretation, it is what I find and verified myself. Of course, this level of truth is not possible to truly convey in language, but the truth is the truth. The awareness of the existence of others completely depends on your consciousness level. The higher the level, the greater expansion/inclusion the self becomes. You as everything/nothing/infinite love is just that; you as the ego is also that, but in your direct experience, you are not conscious of it, thus creating separation in experience. Once you reach higher levels of consciousness, you can experience both your individual experience and other people's experience in first person since you are them. So in truth, the self is both independent and collective, both unified and separated, both infinite and finite. It's imagining an independent/collective experience as God. You can become conscious of this very process of creation/imagination directly in higher states of consciousness. 

[erik8lrl]

The truth is that all of Leo's teaching (and all other teachings) are directly verifiable. So don't believe/disbelieve anything, go do the work and verify them for yourselves. As Leo and other teachers have been saying over and over again. You want to know if you are the only thing that exists? Or if your mum has independent experience? Reach higher states of consciousness and you will find out. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by erik8lrl

[Dodo]

3 hours ago, erik8lrl said:

@BipolarGrowth Nothing to do with misinterpretation, it is what I find and verified myself. Of course, this level of truth is not possible to truly convey in language, but the truth is the truth. The awareness of the existence of others completely depends on your consciousness level. The higher the level, the greater expansion/inclusion the self becomes. You as everything/nothing/infinite love is just that; you as the ego is also that, but in your direct experience, you are not conscious of it, thus creating separation in experience. Once you reach higher levels of consciousness, you can experience both your individual experience and other people's experience in first person since you are them. So in truth, the self is both independent and collective, both unified and separated, both infinite and finite. It's imagining an independent/collective experience as God. You can become conscious of this very process of creation/imagination directly in higher states of consciousness. 

You're claiming one can experience other peoples experience also if conscious enough. 

Big claim, provable claim, no proof exists, therefore I call bs. 

Someone else cannot have my direct experience - try your best. Take whatever psychedelic you want and call Leo too and buddha! 

I know for a fact only I can be and know me. There is no separate entity here that is experiencing me, so there cant be another one experiencing me (there is Not Even One)

But nice try it sounds woke. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Dodo

[RMQualtrough]

5 hours ago, erik8lrl said:

Once you reach higher levels of consciousness, you can experience both your individual experience and other people's experience in first person since you are them.

What do you mean? I don't think telepathy is possible, though if it is I'd say anyone who desires to stay in this human body has an obligation to prove it and change the entire world by doing so.

How I envision it is infinite "God", we are inside of God and made of God. We are therefore all identical, but the different appearances inside God do not appear to access each other directly from the egoic selves.

It is only possible to end the egoic selves. Your own egoic self does not record any memory of the perceptions of a different egoic self. So even though you are experiencing ALL egoic selves right now (God is, but you are God), your own egoic self and mind will never know it.

That has been my own ruminations.

[erik8lrl]

@Dodo @RMQualtrough It is possible on higher states of consciousness, but don't take my word for it. Go verify it yourself if you want to know. 

[Dodo]

15 minutes ago, erik8lrl said:

@Dodo @RMQualtrough It is possible on higher states of consciousness, but don't take my word for it. Go verify it yourself if you want to know. 

Man you cant just say that. You see you are making a claim that is provable. It sounds very flashy and advanced and since you obviously know how, please have an experience of my experience then tell me stuff. 

I am absolutely open minded to believe you if evidence is presented. I allow you to come see my experience as me from my point of view. 

Good luck... 

By telling people to verify for themself something impossible,  you are just sending them on an endless journey to a achieve something unachievable. Then when they do not achieve it (no shit) they will just think the problem is they are not conscious enough. Give me a break!! That's why evidence is important! 

 

You achieve it first, then give proof that you experienced my experience and then I will have enough evidence that its possible to try myself.

 

 

You don't have and will not be able to present me such evidence. How do I know that? Even without having access to your experience?  ❤ contemplate that

Edited May 22, 2021 by Dodo

[kinesin]

@erik8lrl  I believe @Dodo's issue here is that they're taking your claims overly literally and envisioning something supernatural.  My interpretation is that you're essentially referring to the fact that a highly focused state of empathetic observation can give you a direct perception of the inner experience of another person.  I know that this ability isn't universal because many times I've been surprised to find that other people couldn't do it, but I myself can 'read minds' so to speak, when people-watching.  I can't tell you the precise content of their thoughts of course, but I can get the colour of them, and I can sense their perceptions.  I can mentally 'put myself in their head' and get a mental image of what they're seeing and experiencing, from their perspective.

There's nothing mystical about it - even explaining it like this makes it sound more special than it is, but I just wanted to add that I understand what @erik8lrl is talking about.  With a silent mind and an empathetic focus, all that information can be recieved from observation.

[Dodo]

6 minutes ago, kinesin said:

@erik8lrl  I believe @Dodo's issue here is that they're taking your claims overly literally and envisioning something supernatural.  My interpretation is that you're essentially referring to the fact that a highly focused state of empathetic observation can give you a direct perception of the inner experience of another person.  I know that this ability isn't universal because many times I've been surprised to find that other people couldn't do it, but I myself can 'read minds' so to speak, when people-watching.  I can't tell you the precise content of their thoughts of course, but I can get the colour of them, and I can sense their perceptions.  I can mentally 'put myself in their head' and get a mental image of what they're seeing and experiencing, from their perspective.

There's nothing mystical about it - even explaining it like this makes it sound more special than it is, but I just wanted to add that I understand what @erik8lrl is talking about.  With a silent mind and an empathetic focus, all that information can be recieved from observation.

You cannot be sure that you got all the information. You cannot be sure that you are not just projecting what other is experiencing based on your biases.

To me it seemed like erik is making a radical claim. Such a claim needs a radical evidence. If he meant what you say, he would've said it. Not to sound cryptic.

[kinesin]

@Dodo  You never get all of the information, and I never claimed to, but you do get enough to claim that an experience has been directly percieved.  As for claims requiring radical evidence - you're borrowing reasoning from science which simply doesn't apply here, so it'd be foolish to even try to apply it.  According to the scientific method even saying 'I have a conscious experience' is a radical claim which cannot be measured or proved, but we accept it to be true based on other nonscientific reasonings.

 

[Dodo]

7 minutes ago, kinesin said:

@Dodo  You never get all of the information, and I never claimed to, but you do get enough to claim that an experience has been directly percieved.  As for claims requiring radical evidence - you're borrowing reasoning from science which simply doesn't apply here, so it'd be foolish to even try to apply it.  According to the scientific method even saying 'I have a conscious experience' is a radical claim which cannot be measured or proved, but we accept it to be true based on other nonscientific reasonings.

 

How would you know you are not utterly fooling yourself. If you fool yourself well enough, you wont know the difference between really directly experiencing someone else's point of view and just imagining something that is just not true and call it true. I actually hate people who play the psychologist and pretend to know why you do what you do etc etc.. You must be that guy on another level, even thinking he knows my direct experience lol - but will keep silent about it so the truth that he doesnt know my direct experience wont surface! That would be fun... 

I don't find it foolish. If someone can access my experience I want it proved. Why the heck not? 

I can tell you I can poop gold. But I will never show you, you just gotta trust me and if you're conscious enough you will start to crap gold too.

What's so hard about proving the claim? The only thing hard about it is if the claim is wrong. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Dodo