Major Discussion Of Actualized.org Teachings & The Future

[Protein]

You could talk more about why life is beautiful. Why is life a gift? Why is life so amazing? Most of your episodes are about "problems" and "deconstructing": I love them all, but why don't you talk more about why and how life is beautiful and perfect? I mean specific episodes about that.

Edited May 25, 2021 by Protein

[BipolarGrowth]

Just now, Protein said:

You could talk more about why life is beautiful. Why is life a gift? Why is life so amazing? Most of your episodes are about "problems" and "deconstructiong": I love them all, but why don't you talk more about why and how life is beautiful and perfect? I mean specific episodes about that.

+1

[Shin]

1 hour ago, Protein said:

You could talk more about why life is beautiful. Why is life a gift? Why is life so amazing? Most of your episodes are about "problems" and "deconstructing": I love them all, but why don't you talk more about why and how life is beautiful and perfect? I mean specific episodes about that.

Why ?

Life is just about understanding how it works, how amazing it feels to live it is irrevelant.

The only thing that matters is how much I understand reality, why the fuck would I talk about how amazing life is ?

To be honest, the only thing that matters is how much I can spiritual bypass my emotions, that's the only thing I care about, and the reason this forum is perfect for me.

You see, there is not even a forum about how to do shadow work and handle my emotions here, so I can simply ignore this aspect of life and just go for pure understanding, cause that's the only thing that matters, cause that's what Leo told me, cause that's what interests him (but I feign to ignore I could be interested in something else so  I don't have to look at my shadows).

My spiritual logic is infaillible, cause I understand reality more than you, cause I use cliche words more than you.

Get on my level bro !

(Kidding you don't exist, so am I !)

[Raptorsin7]

@Shin Haha you had me for the first few sentences

[Proserpina]

@Shin haha it's so true

[Windappreciator]

I assume we're all done with the Leo bashing.

[Emerald]

On 5/20/2021 at 8:20 PM, Leo Gura said:

Edited: After some deeper reflection, I am modifying my original post be more open and accommodating.

This will be a master thread of sorts for dealing with the fallout of recent events, specifically focused on clarifying and discussing the nature of my work and Actualized.org as a whole.

This community and my followers are going to go through a self-sorting. Whatever grievances you have with my teachings, express it here.

If you believe my work has ever promoted suicide, you should leave this forum because you fundamentally misunderstand my work and we will not get along. If you have a problem with psychedelics, if you believe psychedelics are bad, wrong, dangerous, untruthful, and not genuine awakening, you should also leave this forum because we have a fundamental disagreement that I will not be arguing with you about. My work and research is deeply intertwined with psychedelics. If you don't like that, then simply find a community or teacher who does the classic path.

In general, feel free to vent whatever grievances you have with me personally, or with my work. Whatever you don't like or disagree with. Lay all your cards out on the table so that we clear the air. This is necessary to create a non-toxic community going forward which is not constantly at war with itself. The general rule is this: don't waste your time and energy on things you do not align with. Think carefully whether this community aligns with your values, and if it doesn't, just let it go and move on to things that align with you.

Here is something to be mindful of that I’ve mentioned to you before.

The biggest issue I see with this forum as an environment (in relation to your role in it specifically), is the short punchy way that you share things.

It gives a harsh vibe of absolute certainty, and then others (usually young impressionable men) who look up to you as a leader immediately and uncritically absorb what you say without really thinking.

Every time that you make a claim with this air of certainty, I can go right down on the thread and find multiple guys parroting what you say... simply because of the way you say it.

And this turns the forum into an echo chamber.

And I see sometimes that you expect for people to understand when you’re being funny or satirical or simply playing devil’s advocate or taking a spiritual truth to its most extreme ends. But many (if not most) do not understand. 

Basically, you would be wise to understand the position of power you’re in relative to your viewership. And with the understanding of that power, being able/willing to pick and choose carefully what you decide to share and what you choose not to.

Every Hierophant is wise to consider what is unintended for the uninitiated and those not predisposed to the work.

[RMQualtrough]

4 hours ago, Windappreciator said:

I assume we're all done with the Leo bashing.

Poor guy, I don't understand why he takes such a whipping. If you Google his name he just can't catch a break from ANYONE. Even on his own forum? LOL like wtf? Why are people so mean to poor Leo?

At least the memes are good.

[Himanshu]

56 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Every time that you make a claim with this air of certainty, I can go right down on the thread and find multiple guys parroting what you say... simply because of the way you say it.

And this turns the forum into an echo chamber.

This is something I have noticed as well. 

Unintended consequences of his style of teaching. 

In the future, it'd be wise of Leo to find a way to communicate his teachings in a less corruptible and less misinterpretable format. A book could be that, but perhaps less impactful than he delivering truth bombs straight in your face. 

[Snader]

18 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Here is something to be mindful of that I’ve mentioned to you before.

The biggest issue I see with this forum as an environment (in relation to your role in it specifically), is the short punchy way that you share things.

It gives a harsh vibe of absolute certainty, and then others (usually young impressionable men) who look up to you as a leader immediately and uncritically absorb what you say without really thinking.

Every time that you make a claim with this air of certainty, I can go right down on the thread and find multiple guys parroting what you say... simply because of the way you say it.

I thought about that too, but I think this simply goes into the category of not being able to suit answers for everybody. I actually think that most of the people benefit from that answers as they are familiar with Leo's style and attitude, which goes along the lines of giving a harsh fact and letting people's curiosity encourage them to seek for the understanding behind those words by themselves. I think it's actually a really small percentage of people reading his advice, who play that follow the leader game, and most of those like to comment and show how obedient students they are.

Yes, his answer are usually short and concise and doesn't necessarily help directly, but what's the alternative? Of course he could be more inclusive and emphasize lots of different points and give more abundant answers and guidance, but I don't think he is willing to but in the time himself. And in the long run, for those who parrot him, if they are to develop and able/willing to expand their understanding in the first place, they will eventually learn the limitations of their parroting act and work it out. Leo won't teach them that.

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

And I see sometimes that you expect for people to understand when you’re being funny or satirical or simply playing devil’s advocate or taking a spiritual truth to its most extreme ends. But many (if not most) do not understand.

I agree with that, but can't really say how it is from the perspective of a person who's supposedly had super human level awakenings and obviously possesses a nice amount of knowledge and wisdom.

Maybe it's not about most people understanding. Maybe even 1% understanding is enough, idk. From what I've come to understand through my own experience, some spiritual phenomenon can't be communicated through language, and when I look at some of the questions Leo receives, I see there is no way that can be explained, and sometimes I feel like the questioner already knows that. I mean there is lots of mental masturbation going on on the spirituality section. 

And what I've noticed, Leo advocates direct experience quite a lot. So again, I think if he can get his message (to go for direct experience) through to 1% of his audience, it's already a triumph. And if the questioner don't get that, then it's time for him to get back to work.

Maybe it's just his style, maybe he thinks that his way is the most efficient way, maybe there is frustration involved sometimes, or maybe he really should work on his way of giving advice, idk. But I personally wouldn't know how to make it better. There is definitely style involved, and I must parrot his words with this: If his style doesn't resonate, then you really shouldn't follow his work.

[Shin]

6 hours ago, Windappreciator said:

I assume we're all done with the Leo bashing.

It's not Leo bashing.

It's a forum dynamic bashing.

[snowyowl]

Hi all,

It's taken me all this time to catch up with all the latest news in the forum, including the tragic news about Sunny.My condolences to his family and friends.

I keep coming back to how this group of us associated with actualized.org see ourselves, there's a range of thinking on this point. Some want a simple internet forum of essentially anonymous individuals, discussing spirituality with full disclaimers that we aren't responsible for what we say. On the other end of the spectrum others call this gathering a community, which to me carries suggestions of closer connections, caring about each other, taking more responsibility for eachother, seeing ourselves as a connected community. There's shades inbetween too of course.

Actualized.org itself is a limited company run by Leo as his right livelihood, to offer his teachings to the world. It's a good business model, Leo earns a living and anyone can access advanced teachings free. Leo is in charge, and like any other small business it isn't democratic. The forum has a simple hierarchy with Leo on top and mods inbetween.

Comparing this forum with others I belong to, most of them are run autocratically by whoever originally set them up, at least that saves a whole lot of bureaucracy and politics. While that's fine for a basic forum, if we're intending to become a true spiritual community, do we want to keep going long-term as a kind of monarchy? That would feed into the accusations of being a cult.  On the other hand, do we have the stomach and commitment to evolve into a democratic spiritual organisation? 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by snowyowl

[BipolarGrowth]

5 hours ago, snowyowl said:

Hi all,

It's taken me all this time to catch up with all the latest news in the forum, including the tragic news about Sunny.My condolences to his family and friends.

I keep coming back to how this group of us associated with actualized.org see ourselves, there's a range of thinking on this point. Some want a simple internet forum of essentially anonymous individuals, discussing spirituality with full disclaimers that we aren't responsible for what we say. On the other end of the spectrum others call this gathering a community, which to me carries suggestions of closer connections, caring about each other, taking more responsibility for eachother, seeing ourselves as a connected community. There's shades inbetween too of course.

Actualized.org itself is a limited company run by Leo as his right livelihood, to offer his teachings to the world. It's a good business model, Leo earns a living and anyone can access advanced teachings free. Leo is in charge, and like any other small business it isn't democratic. The forum has a simple hierarchy with Leo on top and mods inbetween.

Comparing this forum with others I belong to, most of them are run autocratically by whoever originally set them up, at least that saves a whole lot of bureaucracy and politics. While that's fine for a basic forum, if we're intending to become a true spiritual community, do we want to keep going long-term as a kind of monarchy? That would feed into the accusations of being a cult.  On the other hand, do we have the stomach and commitment to evolve into a democratic spiritual organisation? 

 

I think it would make sense to create more of a unified approach myself. There are so many who would enjoy furthering the cause and have life purposes aligned with such work. Instead of having one mysterious talking head guy as all content, our mysterious talking head guy could oversee other talented spiritual people making content to expand the high quality library. Idk there is some sense in having things more collective and group-oriented, but there are a lot of limits no matter what. 

[SLuxy]

To my mind, there is a degree to which it would be prudent for you, Leo, to focus awareness on the systemic nature of Actualized.org.

One can hold the position that the actions of the consumer, of content such as Actualized.org, are the consumer's responsibility (although, this could be deconstructed).

However, let us say for that moment that the responsibility lies with the consumer. If this is so, it does not negate the cause-effect relationship that your content has on the actions of the consumer's of your content.

If the responsibility is on the consumer, it may not be the responsibility of yourself (Leo), or the moderators of this forum, to have mental health training, but if said training is provided then, to my mind, it is reasonable to assume that the likelihood of suicides, or similar incidents occurring would be lowered.

Perhaps, Leo, the cause-effect relationship is deemed suitable as it is. Perhaps, awareness on the systemic nature of Actualized.org is deemed to be appropriate.

However, perhaps not.

[Ry4n]

On 5/26/2021 at 2:18 PM, Emerald said:

The biggest issue I see with this forum as an environment (in relation to your role in it specifically), is the short punchy way that you share things.

It gives a harsh vibe of absolute certainty, and then others (usually young impressionable men) who look up to you as a leader immediately and uncritically absorb what you say without really thinking.

Every time that you make a claim with this air of certainty, I can go right down on the thread and find multiple guys parroting what you say... simply because of the way you say it.

And this turns the forum into an echo chamber.

And I see sometimes that you expect for people to understand when you’re being funny or satirical or simply playing devil’s advocate or taking a spiritual truth to its most extreme ends. But many (if not most) do not understand. 

Basically, you would be wise to understand the position of power you’re in relative to your viewership. And with the understanding of that power, being able/willing to pick and choose carefully what you decide to share and what you choose not to.

Every Hierophant is wise to consider what is unintended for the uninitiated and those not predisposed to the work.

Highly agree with this take, the flippancy of some comments is inherently dangerous and breeds a kind of know it all attitude that ain't healthy. I would also add that honouring the relative is severely lacking in the spiritual side of this community, almost to the point of using the absolute POV as a copout, which is also dangerous and breeds Zen devils.

[uriel]

I have a critique of a conviction you hold that subtly affects all of your outlooks on life, your notions on the world, and which, I believe, causes you much cognitive dissonance.

 

The conviction I’m talking about is your idealist notion of reality. Aka, your belief that reality is all mind created. That there are no others. That there is no common Prakriti to multiple Purushas. My issue with you on this matter is that you are too confident of this, I believe unjustifiedly, and it has many subtle implications on how you interact with the world and reality, and it causes evident cognitive disonance. If reality is only ever mind created, then there is no objectivity. Nada.

 

I’ve also put in many hours on the cushion. I’ve also done heavy psychedelics and had the same notion occur to me ‘I am God. I created everything. All of it.’ And I still consider it to be a good possibility. I still consider the idealist, rather than realist position on reality, to have a good chance of being true. The difference between us though, I suppose, is that I don’t hold onto this notion with certainty. There are other possible ways to explain my experiences. Especially after study of other Vedantic and Sankyan explanations on the nature of reality, and what happens metaphysically when ignorance is eradicated, rather than holding on so tightly to the Advaita Vedantic and Kashmir Shaivist perspectives (which I still adore and consider to be very possible).

 

Edit: One thing though, I want to say is that I respect and commend you for your ability to be self critical and to question yourself. You have disavowed positions you’ve held in the past. This is a good thing, in my opinion. A good sign. It’s extremely important. You lose this ability though, and things are going to get messy - for you yourself, and for your students.

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by uriel

[pepeking]

I recommend a progression over time strategy for your work. The psyche cannot handle too much revelation at once, so you should encourage people to take things slowly and give them time to digest it. You've said something similar already by telling people to progress through the spiral dynamic stages..(get grounded in stage blue etc) but people should take long breaks to come to grips with difficult concepts/experiences like ego death. Also, you should recommend starting out with weaker psychedelics first (and to do thorough research/appropriate precautions) as people work their way up.

Psychedelics can make people go crazy. They have the potential to trigger latent mental illness and sudden undesirable changes in perspective... look into psyche ward residents and you'll find a huge amount of people there who have misused psychedelics.. Some literally start hallucinating insects crawling all over their bodies. Pest control get bothered with calls from these people all the time. It is an internet meme thanks to people like Joe Rogan that psychedelics are completely safe. People should respect them.

You also come across as someone who enjoys psyching people out (the smiley faces like in... the YouTube comments lol). You've got kind of a mentalist vibe going on with the shaven head and everything (that's cool and part of the image/brand). You should be careful though, I'm not sure if the way you communicate was picked up from self help books or through coaching/speaking techniques, but it comes off as brash. It's almost like your channel is trying to target arrogant rationalists/skeptics and teach them a lesson..and then open minded or more casual watchers get caught in the crossfire. I understand that this method might be a requirement though to make people "get it".

You should also give Christianity a closer look Leo. Almost everything you teach is the complete opposite of it at every single point. If there is any foundation out there for dualism, you'd find it in Christianity. Mental illness from the Christian worldview can be prescribed to demons/fallen angels amalgamizing with your consciousness. Demons provide an explanation for things like tourettes, hearing voices, schizophrenia, people that need straight jackets, self harm, seizures etc...It might even be an alternative explanation for kriyas or kundalini experiences. Definitely look into it...but you do you man.

P.S, I am amazed at how one man can be so based. You've basically discovered what the Freemasons and Jews believe as their deepest held secret, and release articulate well thought out explanations of it every week. You've probably gone even deeper than they have.

Edited May 31, 2021 by pepeking

[mp22]

People who want to kill themselves take your teachings to their logical conclusion.

This whole thing is meaningless. According to your videos, I will live this and other existences an infinite amount of time. In fact I have probably killed myself an infinite amount of times.  It does not matter if I kill myself or make a million dollars.  Eventually I will go back to being alone as God then get bored and start the whole thing again. It's all a dream.

Again if it's a dream why not kill myself? why not shoot my kids in the head (you've mentioned the latter as one potential albeit radical step)?  They're not real after all and neither am I.

So why can't I kill myself and say you told me to? who cares since this whole thing is an illusion?

You seem to act exactly as if it's not an illusion. As if you are actually talking to other people who exist. As if your business exists and you are worried about your reputation. 

I think you need to explain this contradiction.

 

[Shin]

10 minutes ago, mp22 said:

People who want to kill themselves take your teachings to their logical conclusion.

This whole thing is meaningless. According to your videos, I will live this and other existences an infinite amount of time. In fact I have probably killed myself an infinite amount of times.  It does not matter if I kill myself or make a million dollars.  Eventually I will go back to being alone as God then get bored and start the whole thing again. It's all a dream.

Again if it's a dream why not kill myself? why not shoot my kids in the head (you've mentioned the latter as one potential albeit radical step)?  They're not real after all and neither am I.

So why can't I kill myself and say you told me to? who cares since this whole thing is an illusion?

You seem to act exactly as if it's not an illusion. As if you are actually talking to other people who exist. As if your business exists and you are worried about your reputation. 

I think you need to explain this contradiction.

 

The reason you don't do that is :

a. because it doesn't feel good

b. because you enjoy life and want to continue to enjoy it

[BipolarGrowth]

2 minutes ago, Shin said:

The reason you don't do that is :

a. because it doesn't feel good

b. because you enjoy life and want to continue to enjoy it

People are really taking these teachings beyond where they’re meant to be taken off of probably a rather partial awakening process. 

They’re missing the Love, becoming enraptured in beauty. They’re missing sitting at a family gathering in a high consciousness state and thinking of all the amazing relative gifts you’ve been given. 
 

@mp22

YOUR LIFE STORY IS THE STORY OF GOD’S LIFE FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE. TREAT ABSOLUTE PERFECTION WITH ITS DUE APPRECIATION ? That’s my message to people worried about no meaning and everything. If you saw the scope, you’d see the meaning. Would it be some immutable Absolute meaning? No, but it sure is amazing. 

 

Sorry for the caps, but seriously guys. If you haven’t had the deep love/beauty/pure consciousness awakenings enough to transform nihilism of any sort, focus on trying to create that next. It is the foundation for a safe and accurate understanding and use of the teachings. Part of the teachings is an inherent dedication and love toward life. That’s really one of the requirements to try to attain as early as possible imo.