Major Discussion Of Actualized.org Teachings & The Future

[trenton]

Although this site has helped me to grow a lot, there are some problems.

1. The spiritual forum has too many threads which entertain the idea of suicide as a valid spiritual practice.  There needs to be a pinned thread at the top to address the idea of suicide for spiritual reasons.  If there continues to be discussions about suicide and spirituality on this forum it will muddy the waters and some people will fall into the trap of harming the body.

I discussed suicide with somebody in this forum before.  He mentioned that he did not fear death.  If I did not correct what he was thinking, then he might have killed himself.  Moderators should take these types of discussions more seriously and should lock threads that discuss validity in suicide as a spiritual method.  These kinds of discussions should not be happening in the forum.  It needs to be dismissed immediately in a pinned thread at the top of the forum.

2. Actualized.org cannot exempt itself from the issue of mental illness.  Given this YouTube format with people all over the world watching, inevitably people with sick minds will watch and corrupt the teachings.  In case somebody with a mental illness comes across this channel, there needs to be a greater emphasis on seeking professional help if there are any thoughts of harming yourself or someone else.  This can be helpful for people who have serious trauma bubbling up during meditation. 

The assumption of this channel is that the listeners are mentally stable, but this assumption is clearly wrong.  A person who needs mental help does not want to admit that they need it.  They will be prone to the self deception that they are healthy enough to watch these videos.  One thing I can compliment you for so far is that you made the description more robust in the videos.  It is critical that mention the possibility of worsening serious mental conditions by misusing these teachings.

3.  The most practical videos for me were emotional mastery.  This includes childhood vows, anger, depression, envy, and many more.  I shared these videos with my brother when he had some emotional problems.  He asked "why don't they teach this school?". My brother and I both found it extremely helpful.  If you want to help people ease the intensity of ego backlash and psychological trauma, you should make more videos on practical psychology.  If you over emphasize advanced spiritual topics, many newbies might skip the necessary foundation set in older videos years ago.

I want to thank you for your work so far.  You helped me to see the value in personal development and spirituality.

[Pouya]

@Leo Gura Just wanted to share this, Actualized.org teachings are the best when you have been watching all the videos since the last 5 6 years. When people are just introduced to this channel, I wouldn't even recommend them watching the videos from the last 3 years, let alone the recent ones. But as you always say, who wants to put the time and focus on 300 hours of content, that are necessary for the foundation of deeper insights, and just try to be more curious and contemplative about all these topics?

Your teachings have reached a point that the mass can never handle it and you are pretty aware of that. As other members suggested, the spiritual enlightenment section can be divided into two parts of newbies who need foundation, and people with experiences who need support. You can also do videos geared towards newbies if you wanted to. Maybe it is frustrating for you to repeat the same old topics that are so important for newbies. If people had enough foresight they would go back to the more basic teachings so they can have some experience for themselves.

I myself started watching you when I was fucking 15 and now I'm almost 20. I went through almost all the videos from the beginning on purpose and I didn't skip to the most advanced videos at the time. Now I watch your videos fully and then go contemplate myself. what you are for me is an amazing guide, not a source of truth. I've been careful introducing you to anyone I wanted to share with and told them to never skip stuff. The forum for me was a place to relate to people and share my experiences but later I focused on myself and found out the forum is another distraction and limitation for me, like having insights just so you can share them here, not for the purpose of understanding it yourself.

Now, would you do newbie videos here and there again that you did years back, or would you add even more disclaimers that "you shouldn't be watching this, go watch the older, more important videos for you."? That's why most teachers repeat the same shit for the decades, but the thing I always loved about you is that you always evolve and go deeper with the teachings. No matter what you do people with no foundation at all, will watch a video about what is God or what is Love. At least people who care enough find you by chance and grow a lot. Most people can benefit A LOT from just developing mindfulness in their lives, it can improve their life decisions and relationships and their mental states, or just learning the basics to how to contemplate for yourself. I have so much shit to do before going so deep on mysticism, but I can still have experiences and insights, without making fucking life decisions based on it.

Rest in peace SoonHei. May this situation be another teaching for everyone.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Pouya

[trenton]

@Pouya I think you make an important point about newbies skipping to advanced points.  Maybe the actualized videos should be set into various playlists from the least advanced to the most advanced.  If a newbie jumps to the most recent videos there is not a chance that they will understand it.  If there were an order set for watching the videos, actualized could minimize the people taking these teachings the wrong way. 

Maybe there should be a playlist for the most beginner friendly material.  The dangers of spiritual work should be at the beginning of the advanced playlists.  This will serve as a warning for those who don't know what they are getting themselves into.  The beginning of advanced teachings will make it clear not to harm the body or commit suicide.

[Florian]

7 hours ago, Globalcollective said:

@Florian totally agree with this post, I got deep into this path the exact same time Leo did so I was almost following along with his own development and having say 6 years of nonduality and meditation training helps alot before taking psychedelics. If someome new finds his most recent work its prob to much for them to take.  You need alot of grounding before you can integrate this and not loose your mind. 

@trenton wrong @ ?

[Pouya]

@trenton there is actually a playlist for spiritual enlightenment but yeah that can be really beneficial

[Adamq8]

11 hours ago, Sempiternity said:

Maybe there could be another section of the forum just for the most dedicated to the path? One for amateurs who are just starting out in their journey. A place where they can ask the basics, discuss things at that level, and get advice from more experienced peoples. And another for those who more advanced on the path, who can discuss the deepest depths of Nonduality/God-Consciousness/Love/Infinity with others at that same level. Think of it like school. Would you have people in grades 6 -12 in the same class, discussing the same subjects, with the peoples in Masters and Doctorate programs? Of course not. It neither benefits those at the 6-12 stage, nor the people at the Masters stage of education. The only way a University Masters class works, for the Professor to be able to teach topics at that level, is if everyone in that class has the same level of education and understanding. And those at the 6-12 stage of education can get confused and frustrated by the Masters class subject matter, potentially hindering their development at the stage that they are at. What if there was a Actualized.org Masters class forum, where people had to earn admittance, through their applied dedication to their spiritual path. And if they display tendencies that don't meet the standard set for that forum, instead of banning them, they simply get put back into the general audience forum. And, as they grow, if they so desire, they can apply again. Isn't Actualized.org an education of a subject matter, in this case Nonduality/God-Consciousness/Love/Infinity? Why shouldn't it operate like an education system, with tiers, instead of all lumped together? Any education system where all levels of education/understanding/knowledge are all lumped together, would run into major issues. 

Yeaah like this or something like it would be awesome,  sure the problem would be that maybe some people would label it cult like even more, but is it really unavoidable?

I dont know but there is some potential in this, will sorta clear out the unserious people.

One thing is clear imo and that is that this forum is a fucking blessing to us all and your work is amazing Leo, I feel in my heart that you will go down as one of the biggest philosophers/teachers in history.

There is no one with that depth on the psyche, life, God and so forth.

Your work is extremely important imo and I dont know where i would have been in my life without your channel.

It has grown me tremendously. 

Thank you for all that you do.

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Adamq8

[Seeker531]

@Leo Gura

I want to  thank you for your teachings. I follow them for 2 years now and the first 15 months I was very sceptical but more and more things revealed to be right. Without you and the people here my life would be dramatically different. I wouldn't know self help,I wouldn't have made sense out of the psychedelic experience and what love is and would've been stuck in victim mode. I wouldn't have a map in which direction to develope and would've missed all those concepts from what is love over spiral dynamics to epistimology and wouldn't know what a perspective is in order to let go. 

After some accident 2.5 years ago where I nearly died and shattered my feet and elbow and spend 11 months in a wheel chair I see this as a chance to change myself and build a more meaningful fulfilling life. I've become conscious of all the surpressed needs every human being has and I am slowly changing my trajectory  on my own pace from negativity, no hope, towards what I want in life.

There's a honest, loving and appreciating part inside me which is slowly growing bigger and bigger. My focus is on healing trauma, become more happy and building a new career and not misusing these things as a cope out to run away from life but rather to face life and overcoming my fears and insecurities. Because of my special situation I see myself in the responsibility like everyone else to figure the balance out for myself. 

I'm more interested in your older content but find the newer videos like those about holons are very useful because it's shows for example that one can always do something and it influences all the other areas for the better or worse. 

Besides my therapy, I find the techniques I aquired here like the emotional scale, affirmation, thought questioning, shadow work and especially grounding very useful for me and they make the therapy  way more effective. My therapist know that I use psychedelics every 3-4 months and I'm aware of set and setting. I meditate regularly and do mindfulness some yoga and when insights come, then they come and if not then it's ok, too. 

But I see as well that I first want to get rid of the toxic things in my life and have a stable basis before pursuing higher things and that might take another 5-10 years at least and I'm working on it. I have different sources to meet me at my current level. 

I have described my situation because of your latest video I see myself as one of the more special cases and i know that I have to decide what to applyand what not. I wasn't sure whether it's still okay to stick around and I want to show you and the people here my appreciation for the things I read here on the forum. If I didn't stumble upon these things I would've been fucked a lot. even as a follower of buddhism and meditator I wouldn't have a clue or map how to create a happy, conscious life. 

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Seeker531

[Vittorio]

13 hours ago, Elisabeth said:

This is super interesting and captivating, lots of valuable comments in this thread. 

I'm deeply sorry for the family of the deceased! Also, sending Leo some basic human compassion - he seems to be handling the fallout and evaluating responsibility just fine, but I imagine it must be emotionally difficult too.

I'm one of the people coming into spirituality from a place of depression (though not suicidal level) and anxiety, my core interests in personal development have been emotions, relationships, trauma healing. I'm greatful to Leo for introducing me to some philosophy and spirituality too . My progress is slow, and I've been following since forever (2016), and awakening is still over my head. 

It would never occur to me to take Leo's teachings as promoting suicide. For me, they are fascinating! But I understand that spiritual concepts and experience can lead to confusion in some people. I've never personally experienced much of it just from listening - ideas on their own aren't very threatening to me. Experience is a different thing and can be deeply unsetteling. In terms of dealing with the dangers of spiritual teachings, I'm also happy and grateful to have people around me who have been part of i.e. the holotropic breathwork community. They are my guide as much as Leo is, and they help me balance some of Leo's bias.  

As for grievances, I've expressed my opinion on several topics in the past - the old relationship videos, the pick-up line of the forum, the repeated bashing of science and religion (which I'm sick and tired off) and other unnecessary repetition, the political commentary. Some videos on Leo's side interests or newly developing interests just don't have the quality of his core spiritual and philosophical content. (On the other hand, from my area of expertise, I very much appreciate the quantum mechanics series! ) I've also recently expressed concern whether Leo has enough feedback from (or rather, shared investigation with) high-quality intellectuals in the social/politics domain, and I've been called insane  

Leo, this may be a false impression, but it often seems from your videos like you don't talk about your insights and your journey to anyone at all. I'm just always so happy to hear you mention being at a retreat and talking to the teacher, or similar. We may be all imaginary or all one (I don't know what I'm talking about here), but in the relative domain, people need to relate to people as close to their level as possible. I don't think the forum is enough feedback for you. 

If there was some distinction between content for newbies and content for long-time viewers in the future, I would appreciate it.

Lastly, I'm organizing a students' personal development group at my faculty. I've struggled with my conscience on whether I can recommend actualized.org as a source of advice. So far I decided I can't. I'm not actually sure it would have a net positive effect on the students' lives if they started to dive into spirituality and psychedelics. It's a hard decision though, between authenticity and caution (coupled with fear). 

I totally agree with you about relatability. Personally, I think Leo should move away a bit from giving unbiased and clear and distinct insights just to show more about him as a person and generally become more relatable as a human being, because otherwise you can create so much distance between yourself and others that you could be perceived as "elitist" and therefore a cult leader.

I understand that he wants to give you the rawest insights you can get, and that's why he has a nakedly edgy attitude when he tells you facts and gives you insights.

But I feel he misses the opportunity to show himself as a human being and thus become more likeable and relatable.

E. G. I really enjoyed his video when he did a solo retreat at the cabin. Or the old videos with him and his legendary soup. I would really like to see more of that and think it would help him in the long run.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Vittorio

[Aaron p]

I would be fucked without actualised.org. I appreciate all the work done here by Leo and his trusted band of merry men. #EnlightenedBeard

Edited May 22, 2021 by Aaron p

[Elisabeth]

4 hours ago, Vittorio said:

I totally agree with you about relatability. Personally, I think Leo should move away a bit from giving unbiased and clear and distinct insights just to show more about him as a person and generally become more relatable as a human being, because otherwise you can create so much distance between yourself and others that you could be perceived as "elitist" and therefore a cult leader.

I understand that he wants to give you the rawest insights you can get, and that's why he has a nakedly edgy attitude when he tells you facts and gives you insights.

But I feel he misses the opportunity to show himself as a human being and thus become more likeable and relatable.

E. G. I really enjoyed his video when he did a solo retreat at the cabin. Or the old videos with him and his legendary soup. I would really like to see more of that and think it would help him in the long run.

Thanks. Actually, it wasn't my point to suggest Leo should share more of himself on youtube, that could backfire, and it's his right to share as much as he feels up to. My point was, I hope Leo does have both close personal relationships (for the joy they bring - I'm coming from a place of care) and constructive critique/collaboration on the political topics he speaks about (for the quality of his content). 
But I also enjoy relatable personal stories. Like the intro to the old  "Ultimate model of human knowledge" video. It's a good video, one that I recommend a lot if I want to introduce someone to Leo's work. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Elisabeth

[Intraplanetary]

9 minutes ago, Aaron p said:

I would be fucked without actualised.org.

Same. When I had ego death I was so lost and alone with no one to explain to me what's happened, I thought I'm done with no way to figure myselfout. And then I accidentally came across actualised.org and my new life has begun. Thank you, Leo, with all my heart for what you do.

[Moksha]

Take what has meaning for you, at this moment in your life. Disregard everything else. What you disregard now may have profound meaning in the future. This has proven true for me. The insane suddenly makes sense. Go figure 

[Vittorio]

4 minutes ago, Elisabeth said:

Thanks. Actually, it wasn't my point to suggest Leo should share more of himself on youtube, that could backfire, and it's his right to share as much as he feels up to. My point was, I hope Leo does have both close personal relationships and constructive critique/collaboration on the political topics he speaks about. 
But I also enjoy relatable personal stories. Like the intro to the old  "Ultimate model of human knowledge" video. It's a good video, one that I recommend a lot if I want to introduce someone to Leo's work. 

Well, everything he says and does could backfire, as you can see here. So, there is no right choice. I merely suggest that showing more of his "human" side and watching videos outside of his black background white shirt setting where he talks for three hours straight would aid his cause of making Actualized more accessible and less "elitist".

Edited May 22, 2021 by Vittorio

[Wyeth]

On 5/20/2021 at 6:40 PM, Roy said:

I don't generally have any gripes or issues with the teachings. I think they speak for themselves and those who want to derive benefit from them will do so. However I will bring up a few things which I believe are legitimate points;

- The Actualized.Org "style" has been systematically set up in a way that has lent a lot of potential to it behaving like an echo chamber. It's not awful in this regard, but it has some of those aspects. It's good you finally loosened the reigns and started doing interviews again, better late than never, but definitely late. I'm not saying we need to open the floodgates, but there needs to be an opportunity for a healthy level of public feedback. You know enough about how to be careful and precise about this not to fall into the ego traps of online persona wars, so you shouldn't be so consumed by hesitation.

- There needs to be a complete and utter advocation of people ONLY taking psychedelics when they have a "sitter" with them. It's incredibly reckless to suggest people take any of these substances alone. If they are responsible and skilled enough to take them on their own they will do that under their own volition. I think it's just sensible for you as a public advocate of these substances to make people take that principle seriously. NEVER take psychedelics/drugs/substances alone. NEVER. Let people breed experience with them by ensuring a safe environment.

- I've also seen you be way to callous in some responses to people looking for help with particular issues, by just reckless hip-firing statements like, "Just take some psychedelics and see what happens to X problem you have." People are looking for answers and see you @Leo Gura as an authority figure, so while another solution might be appropriate, they might see your statements and blindly assume they need to take psychedelics. Which could turn out to be a disaster for them and whatever issue they have. It could also work though. I'd say simply exercise more caution in giving these suggestions.

Thanks for everything you do. As I said this is all I really have to say. Keep up the good work.

Couldn't have said it better. These are the only grievances I have as well.

[Akemrelax]

My heartfelt condolences to the family. Rip Soonhei, you will me missed.

There are many mentally and emotionally unstable people in the forum, in much worse conditions than Soonhei. I’ve brought this to Leo’s attention in the past. These people need practical and often times professional and medical help, not lofty spiritual advice. They shouldn’t be doing spirituality. They are the same way even after months and years of being on the forum, on the contrary they get more confused and distracted. Leo needs to either tell these people to fix their issues first and then come on the forum or ban these people from the forum for their own safety. To do otherwise would be irresponsible.

I suggest you create a similar post to this one to politely ask members who don’t have their life together to leave the forum and come back once they do. 

[Protein]

It was clear that you didn't promote suicide, and you clarified that once more (and even more clearly) in your last video.

It's good that you put more warnings in the descriptions of your videos (and maybe remind that sometimes while you talk), but other than that, I would suggest, just move on: don't spend too much time and energy on that topic.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Protein

[Preety_India]

 

We need more disclaimers that the teachings here do not promote suicide.

So a person who connects such teachings to suicide will think twice about it 

It's extremely irresponsible to take the teachings out of context and blame the suicide on these teachings.

More warnings in videos and constant disclaimers around these teachings from both Leo and mods 

For example when someone gives spiritual advice please put disclaimers in paranthesis that it shouldn't be used to cause body harm. This way the blame is not on the forum and the person won't associate such advice with suicide plans.

The spiritual advice in these posts could have easily been accompanied with disclaimers of no body harm.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Preety_India

[Ryan R]

On 5/21/2021 at 4:17 AM, Leo Gura said:

 

Well done. Thanks for this Leo. You made it abundantly clear to critics and those with suicidal ideation alike that this work has nothing to do with harming the body and everything to do with living the good life. You did this without compromising the integrity of the teachings of the Absolute as well. Very direct yet heartfelt, thoroughly, and artfully explained. 

With the addition of this video to the catalog that truly does contain other cautionary episodes and warnings of traps in many videos, and with your commitment to have even more explicit warnings and disclaimers especially in the advanced work, surely any reasonable person would now be satisfied with the level of care and precaution being taken. As for the unreasonable people, well, haters gonna hate as they say and I concur there simply is no way to completely fool-proof these teachings.

For the record I love and appreciate mostly everything about Actualized.org. Unlike many it seems, I even like your style, but to be fair I think that's mostly because it's alot like mine was and sometimes still is.

For a guy just sharing his spiritual journey and philosophical insights on YouTube you are a fine communicator and a great teacher. The improvement in these aspects is clear from your early videos to present. Awesomely profound awakenings and deep wisdom you have down, but if I could offer you any advice it would be to approach your communication and teachings skills as you do awakenings in regards to how you continue to push for progress.

Don't be satisfied with your current level of instructional ability. Become an ever better communicator and teacher. Sure, you are good to great now, but that's not mastery. In the game a being a masterful spiritual teacher the ability to effectively communicate the teachings is arguably more important than the extreme depths of the teachings themselves because most of those you teach will never work and sacrifice to reach such extreme depths of understanding to be actual God-realized Sages. Basically, superb instructional ability is at least half the job, and it's a very learnable mundane skill set. Some further honing of your communication skills will also go far in aiding you in future interviews, dialogs, and possible debates if you engage in such.

I look forward to seeing you grow and mature in embodying your teachings and becoming a leader. The world needs more God-realized Sages in leadership. Here's to Being Good Philosopher Kings

[Ryan R]

13 hours ago, Preety_India said:

 

We need more disclaimers that the teachings here do not promote suicide.

So a person who connects such teachings to suicide will think twice about it 

It's extremely irresponsible to take the teachings out of context and blame the suicide on these teachings.

More warnings in videos and constant disclaimers around these teachings from both Leo and mods 

For example when someone gives spiritual advice please put disclaimers in paranthesis that it shouldn't be used to cause body harm. This way the blame is not on the forum and the person won't associate such advice with suicide plans.

 

I second all of these great ideas.

[Terell Kirby]

@Leo Gura a bit of feedback. I think you did an excellent job addressing this with back to back videos last week on the dangers of spiritual work and a deep dive into nihilism. For the millions of followers and members of the forum, you showed tremendous leadership in tackling this head on. I hope it causes a renewed sense of trust in Actualized.org for those who have become skeptical due to recent events. Keep up the great work, and thank you.