Major Discussion Of Actualized.org Teachings & The Future

[kieranperez]

One of the most succinct and powerful teachings I’ve ever gotten that’s paid dividends in following came from a Zen master I work with that touches on precisely this issue:

You have to develop a healthy self before you let go and forget the self. 
 

And quite frankly, the degree to which you can transcend is the degree to which much of our character has been not only sufficiently integrated but also developed and healed. 

I’ve heard stories from this particular Zen master how he was on a retreat and how a participant actually broke into his sleeping quarters in the night, woke him up, and told him how he was growing a pussy and how happy he was because he could finally fuck himself. This guy eventually went into a full blown psychosis to the point where they were gonna call the police. They only reason they didn’t is because this guy was so unhinged they knew it would be a blood bath if they came. So they brought back through this rebirthing process. This shit is no joke and does happen. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by kieranperez

[Consept]

18 minutes ago, okulele said:

I view it as that important as I myself have been pursuing only the highest Truth for years, and I ended up with insights, fabulous experiences and a ruined health (and with it, a more and more dysfunctional human experience). I had to notice the body. And I don't just mean cleaning up my diet, doing excercise, fasting and getting phyical therapy. I mean bringing Consciousness into the body! Coming into the body as Love! Sadly, I never heard you speak about this very specific and wonderful part of what it means to be human and awake. 

I think this is a really good point, becoming a good human is so important and this can sometimes be forgotten because of this quest for enlightenment. My own experience was a belief that i could transcend all the human stuff because i had a couple glimpses, but i didnt realise how important just being a 'healthy' person is, at the very least it should be the foundation of anything else 

[Consilience]

@Leo Gura your video was extremely well put together. Thank you for such an honest, nuanced, and deep discussion on this topic. 

[RMQualtrough]

39 minutes ago, vladorion said:

Something that is infinite cannot be the ultimate.

Infinity still implies some sort of space. Without space, the concept of infinity collapses.

The ultimate realization is not infinity.

It is the essence of both infinity, finity and absolutely everything that can be experienced.

It seems to be experienced that way as opposed to being felt as a point. The direct experience of sizelessness seems to be expanse without boundary.

When it loses grip on any physical part of your body it just bleeds out and encompasses everywhere and everything. This triggers a mystical experience where the subject and object divide ceases, and there does not appear to be boundary on it. It does feel more like an expansion than a contraction... Or initially a contraction as the hold on the body lessens (it will remain conformed to whatever body part is still felt, only when TOTAL out of bodyness happens it bleeds out everywhere).

But it may be a singularity. A singularity which contains infinity. Something like that. Very bizarre...

[Leo Gura]

51 minutes ago, Thetruthseeker said:

Just a side note - as we’re talking about the future of this forum potentially. 
why did the forum start? 

It was just supposed to be a causal place to hang out.

Quote

I honestly it was a smart move to get organic SEO to your site, whilst keeping on the ball with feedback and ideas for future videos. 

I was thinking of doing a public forum for my site but after watching the hours of hassle, criticism and time it takes up for @Leo Gura (no offence everyone) I’m not sure I will bother 

Honestly, running a forum is the worse business decision you'll ever make. It eats up all your time and earns you nothing.

And the brand liability is enormous because you will get crazy people doing crazy things.

It's really something that you should do if you're passionate about building a community. It's not a good business thing.

[Thought Art]

Grateful

[Leo Gura]

53 minutes ago, Consilience said:

When I was doing their workshops, one of the participants literally went crazy. They had a mental breakdown, become totally unhinged from consensus reality and had to end up leaving the workshop prematurely

Honestly, in retrospect. All of the workshops and retreats I've done over the years in various places, very few of them disclose how bad things can get in the worst case scenarios. That info is kept well in the back pocket until you're already a veteran and then you catch wind of wild stories. They are also not honest about their result numbers. Way inflated. Far fewer people get woke than advertised. Like WAY fewer.

The nice thing with physical retreats is that there is a lot more control and supervision possible because it is an expensive paid event and it only lasts a week or two. It is not ongoing 24/7/365 with a rotating cast of 500 anonymous characters.

[Proserpina]

4 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Grateful

+ 1

[BipolarGrowth]

8 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

One of the things that I can offer as fair criticism are the ego battles on this forum.

They are very strong.

I wish there was a general understanding here that we must respect each other's space and opinions and try to not engage in smearing and personal attacks.

Defeats the purpose of being here 

 

 

This certainly has some serious downsides when people get into ego battles, but it sounds like you are getting a considerable amount of this directed toward you personally. Sadly, people are always going to do this kind of stuff. You have to be very careful when dealing with such people. A lot of the issues are caused by the disconnected nature of forums in general. We’re all just typing to a screen. It’s easier for ALL of us to be overly egoic with this compared to more direct and expansive forms of communication. I know this all has been very frustrating for you. Unfortunately, you’ll probably have to be the bigger person if you want to ease tensions. This is certainly a tall order to fill when people are being nasty toward you. I’ve realized a lot of my communication on here has been counterproductive because I’ve overlooked my tone and things of that nature in the past. It’s easy to trigger someone on accident even if just one or a few words are used in the wrong way even if we don’t mean to cause this. 
 

I doubt the forum's level of consciousness, empathy, appreciation of other’s perspectives, etc. will change much in any short period of time to where the issue will be gone without people making a strong conscious effort for more connective and accepting communication. We will probably have to be the change we wish to see in the forum if we want to reasonably expect change. 

[Sempiternity]

I greatly appreciate having a forum where one can ask deeply existential questions concerning their spiritual journey. I can't think of anywhere else that one can ask questions of Nonduality and God Realization, and not only not get judged for these questions, but get thoughtful guidance from others that have gone through or are going through the same things. It's immensely valuable as one navigates the complexities, traps, struggles, suffering, traumas, joys, madness, and breakthroughs of the spiritual journey.  

There has been lots of debate on this forum of what it is and what it should be. With a great deal of people pushing against any moderation or censorship or banning of peoples who are disruptions. I am on the opposite end of the spectrum. There is a great deal of people on this forum that have no interest in the spiritual journey. They are bored people who come to the forum to spout off opinions, get offended, start fights to appease their egos, to be right, and to feed their need for drama. To them it's just another forum to waste time on. 

If I was Leo, I would have waaay stricter policies for the forum. If someone shows they are not serious of a spiritual path, they can go somewhere else for their entertainment. 

The lower the consciousness of the forum, the more it will drive higher consciousness peoples away. If you cater to the lowest common dominator, that's what you get.

If one is on a dedicated spiritual journey, why would they ask a lofty question, when the responses are from people who have no idea what they are talking about and just leave their ego responses for attention?

If I was Leo, I would scrub the forum of anyone who has demonstrated that they have no interest in Nonduality, Awakening, the spiritual journey, or the concepts that Leo teaches. If someone is just on the forum for entertainment or ego stroking, to argue, fight against the teachings, they should be deleted, so they can go get their entertainment elsewhere, and allow those who are serious to have a safe space to support each other on our journeys.   

Just my 2 cents. This is for Leo, if he is deciding what to do with the forum going forward. If you disagree or want to spout off your opinion on this, don't bother. I don't give a shit about your opinion. 

 

[Leo Gura]

35 minutes ago, Sempiternity said:

If I was Leo, I would have waaay stricter policies for the forum.

I have been getting more strict over the years relative to where we started.

And it actually did improve the overall quality.

However, as soon as we move in that direction people love to scream censorship, and it appears tyrannical and cult-like, as people say that only yes-men are allowed.

It's a very challenging needle to thread. This forum has taught me a lot about the appeal of authoritarian rule. It's very tempting to just impose my will on the whole thing. But then people get disgruntled as they do in all authoritarian regimes. But the irony is that authoritarian rule, when done properly, yields to a better overall result. It's just that it pisses people off in the process. So it has a cost.

This forum works almost like a small scale replica of a government. And it makes you appreciate how difficult it is to lead a government. It's much harder than it seems to strike the right balance between freedom and order. It's herding cats with sensitive egos, most of whom feel like they are not being listened to.

[jimwell]

I don't think it is correct to label "Jumping from the bridge to end your human existence and awaken from the imaginary dream of life" as stupid. If doing that really awakens you and be with God, it means it is valid. Sadhguru even recommended to his followers to go to a forest, and sit under a tree until they die of hunger as an alternative to MahaSamadhi. He knows most of his followers can't attain MahaSamadhi, so he recommended the alternative as a valid way to awaken from the dream. He did not encourage it. But at least he recommended it (as something valid) if his followers really want to have the "ultimate awakening".

The claim everything in the material world (children, wife, friends, Leo, etc.) is imaginary also solidifies suicide as valid. The only mistake Sunny committed was he did it not because he was conscious or experienced it to be true, but he just believed it to be true. He might had suffered in a serious but hidden way. And the claim death is awakening from the imaginary dream world and union with God or Infinite Love sounds very beautiful, he was tempted to jump from the bridge as a form of spiritual bypassing.

Suppose these crazy but beautiful claims are true, and murdering yourself (suicide) takes you there. I don't think that is the way to go. It is valid (not stupid), but not the best. That is what needs to be clarified. And that is what should Leo have clarified 2 or 3 years ago. I just saw his most recent video. And finally, he clarified it is best NOT TO SKIP LIFE via suicide because life is supposed to be mastered and enjoyed. That mastery and enjoyment of life despite its difficulties and challenges is a serious form of spirituality. This form of clarification is a better safeguard than disclaimers because clarifications in the videos are more impactful.

I think Leo also needs to clarify whether he is still pursuing his ultimate purpose which is Liberation (the one he posted on his blog in 2019). If he is still going at it, he needs to clarify what exactly it means. Does it mean to be like Jesus? As in going out there, teaching and selflessly helping people, curing them from diseases, and feeding the hungry? Or does it mean being liberated but just continuing teaching on YouTube (which is what he has been doing)?

I also notice Leo responds to posts with low to average quality as long as he perceives doing so is safe. And he doesn't respond to high quality posts if he perceives doing so is threatening. This behavior is repulsive. @Scholar's posts surely have some "substance" which are worth pondering. But Leo rarely replies to them (if he even does). It seems Leo is threatened by people who have intelligence and wisdom, but don't kiss his ass. This is a big weakness (and repulsive).  

I hope @Leo Gura will embody strength, bravery, integrity, and compassion in the future.  

 

[Mannyb]

@jimwell To whom is it repulsive? 

[Jodistrict]

In my opinion there should be a rule in the Forum rules on what talk is allowed with regards to suicide.  I would advocate banning all suicide talk.  But, certainly using spiritual teachings to argue that suicide is reasonable or valid shouldn’t be allowed.  In all cases, they are misinterpreting spiritual teaching meant for advanced practitioners  and are 100% wrong.   The purpose is to wake up and live a happy life, not to kill yourself.   

[Epikur]

I once made a suggestion for quality control. Every post needs a meditation and exercise time so there is some quality foundation.

And yes crazy people post crazy things. So some banning in that direction may be needed if you don't want that crazy people making normal people crazy. 

 

70,30


 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Epikur

[Windappreciator]

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

However, as soon as we move in that direction people love to scream censorship, and it appears tyrannical and cult-like, as people say that only yes-men are allowed.

You don't have to censor more, just an increased quality and effort in formulating ones views.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Windappreciator

[BipolarGrowth]

13 minutes ago, Mannyb said:

@jimwell To whom is it repulsive? 

Me. Although I wouldn’t use such a strong word. Annoying is closer. 
 

I’ve noticed this pattern myself, but I could always be just interpreting data wrong. I would appreciate a response to what I suggested in my response to this thread. I know he’s busy though. I have a feeling it might have pushed some buttons or be something he’d rather not have to air out in front of people. PM is always fine if my projections are of substance. 

[Sempiternity]

54 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I have been getting more strict over the years relative to where we started.

And it actually did improve the overall quality.

However, as soon as we move in that direction people love to scream censorship, and it appears tyrannical and cult-like, as people say that only yes-men are allowed.

It's a very challenging needle to thread. This forum has taught me a lot about the appeal of authoritarian rule. It's very tempting to just impose my will on the whole thing. But then people get disgruntled as they do in all authoritarian regimes. But the irony is that authoritarian rule, when done properly, yields to a better overall result. It's just that it pisses people off in the process. So it has a cost.

This forum works almost like a small scale replica of a government. And it makes you appreciate how difficult it is to lead a government. It's much harder than it seems to strike the right balance between freedom and order. It's herding cats with sensitive egos, most of whom feel like they are not being listened to.

I personally wouldn't care of people get pissed off or disgruntled. I would think of the forum less like a government, and more a house gathering. This is your house. You want like-minded people at your house party, people you jive with, that can celebrate life in the same way. If a bunch of frat boys, biker gangs, or gang-banger show up at your party, you could get fights, violence, and people trashing your house and your guests. Sure frat boys, biker gangs, or gang-bangers will get pissed off and protest being asked to leave. They'll say they have just as much right to party there as anyone. But if you go the diplomatic route and allow them to stay, all you'll get is a wreaked house and all your friends gone. If someone calls me authoritarian for asking them to leave my house for being a disruption to my house guests, then so be it. 
 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Sempiternity

[Hulia]

2 hours ago, Preety_India said:

One of the things that I can offer as fair criticism are the ego battles on this forum.

They are very strong.

So what? As long as nobody is hurt...

Why other people´s egos bother you?

[EmptyInside]

Good to hear you address some of these issues, specifically suicide. i would be willing to bet that more people than we might think watch watch your videos or visit your forum have battled with these types of thoughts at some point for a variety of different reasons. The nihilism dip is certainly something I've experienced, and not just once either. It's not always about ideas or beliefs. Health fades, careers end, purpose disappears, meaning evaporates, loved ones pass away, pets die, we can find ourselves completely alone in the world regardless of whatever life we had created for ourselves, sometimes, for some. Others seek so obsessively, the dizzying heights of "total" enlightenment that they dive headfirst into the deep abyss of insanity, quite easily actually. Like you said, reality just melts, don't know which way is up. It could happen to any of us given the right set of circumstances. Perspective is a tricky thing. I heard you mention your gut problems and I was moved to hear you talk about your struggle, one that I share, and one that I can tell you from personal experience can get so bad that it can affect much more than consciousness. Everything flows. I look forward to the video you said you were going to do later specifically about suicide. Hope it comes from that place of Absolute Love.