Major Discussion Of Actualized.org Teachings & The Future

[Adamq8]

Great video so far Leo! Many golden nuggets in it 

[Windappreciator]

@AdeptusPsychonautica

You lack understanding the thrill of understanding. 

Your criticism is not for the sake of compassion or improvement, you seek to keep the meaning down and conserve behaviour of ones around you to a level where you can navigate yourself as usual.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Windappreciator

[ivankiss]

@AdeptusPsychonautica If I may...

I watched your video last night, and although I think you made a few good points; I don't think you are seeing the whole picture here.

I've been a member of this community for 3 years and I can assure you that there is nothing dark, twisted or cultsy going on here.

This is a place where people come to learn from. There is deep wisdom here. Some of the members are highly aware and have everyone's best interests in mind.

That being said; this is the internet, after all. There's going to be a lot of distortion, naturally so. If anything; this place lack a bit warmth and empathy. I'm trying my best to 'lead' by example.

You also must understand that the majority of members come from a different background here than you. They are not as interested in healing as they are interested in realization. And there's nothing wrong with that. There are plenty of members (myself included) who also emphasize the healing side of the journey.

Hope that clarifies stuff a bit for ya. I do think your intentions are good, but it would be a shame to ruin a good thing here.

Peace.

 

 

[Snader]

1 hour ago, Ajagari said:

I think the vast majority of your followers just stay quietly in the background, is doing the work and simply enjoys your and their own development process.

That's a great point! For many people this forum is probably only a source of information and diverse perspectives. You can learn hell of a lot by only observing people's behavior here, or you can use the search function and look for an answer to a problem you're dealing with. I'm sure many people use this forum that way.

Some of us just tend to need the social aspect more, which unfortunately often leads to misuse of the forum, which will cause issues, such as those which are discussed here.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Snader

[TheSomeBody]

i think that your weakness is your strength , your video are really long and really deep that people who want to watch you have hard time to understand you . people on youtube want answers fast , usually they see your channel when they need answers fast and than not understand you fully and jump to crazy conclusion, usually i see they just think you are stupid like adeptus ,they have a laugh and leave but some might like your like connor and get your teaching so wrong that they might do something stupid.
i am guessing that it is up to you , if you are more into damge controll and more easy time for people to understand you i would say keep doing easy videos like jorden peterson , but if you dont care about damge controll so keep the deep videos , i pretty much miss them 

[Salvijus]

I mean this thread has already derailed into unconsciousness but nevermind.  

I think it's impossible to make a teaching perfect using your mind. Simply if you just raised your baseline level of consciousness from person to presence everything would fall into place by itself. You just have to focus on embodiment more. Then everything you do will become sanctified by grace. Universe will make your choices not your mind.

It's an important step. No master allows his studends to start teaching untill they embody higher levels of awareness, except for a few exceptions here and there. Something I think that you should strive for if you want to have a more positive impact on the world. It's an essential requirement for spiritual teachers I think. Without it everything one does is a mistake to some degree. Person is always wrong. Presence is always right.

Stay Blessed and Good luck on your Journey ❤️ @Leo Gura

Edited May 21, 2021 by Salvijus

[Adamq8]

19 minutes ago, Derricklast said:

@Leo Gura People have tried to warn you to be careful how you go about your teachings and you and a lot of your followers didn’t take it seriously. I’m not saying this is completely your fault but making your disclaimers so easy to pass up was very careless and probably has caused a lot of problems not just like this. I don’t really have anything to say now that you will adjust your teachings but it does make me angry that you didn’t consider peoples criticisms about your carelessness a long time ago and would just shut them down. Also, adeptus was one of the people that warned you even though it was mostly focused on the cult tendencies you should’ve considered his criticism as well and now you still blow him off even though he was right.

This is just ridiculous. 

What do you expect from people like really?

Take responsebility for your own life and IF the case may be that you listen to someone else and then make a move on what the person has teached or said it is YOU who is responseble NOT the one saying the words which you interpret in your own way and act on your own accord. 

Dont you see the stupidity in that?

In this case the guy was a grown up man who made his own choice, how tf do you control others? and who are we to judge his reasons for doing what he has done?

Have you not learned enough about life that controlling others is more or less impossible?

People will people exactly as apples apples.

Contemplate what I just said to you.

Leo has plenty of warnings issued throughout his videos for years dude.

And what do you expect Leo do to? Lie so people dont misunderstand him?

This is not just about Leo this is about people in general.

People cant obviously think for themselves and when they fuck up they blame others cause that is much easier then looking into yourself and seeing how delusional youve been the whole time.

 

 

 

 

[Derricklast]

@Adamq8 If you read what I said before you got triggered I said he wasn’t completely to blame but him being careless could’ve been an influence and obviously it can cause problems I mean a disclaimer at the end of the video knowing you have a lot of fragile people in your audience? Smh 

[Derricklast]

@Adamq8 But I guess tough shit for mentally unstable people is your attitude? Sure Leo can’t manage all of his followers but people like you represent him poorly and don’t put words in my mouth like I’m saying he should lie my whole point went over your head that it may have helped if he considered being more careful earlier instead of blowing off peoples criticisms that’s literally all I said don’t twist it around to make me look bad 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Derricklast
Add on

[Adamq8]

9 minutes ago, Derricklast said:

@Adamq8 If you read what I said before you got triggered I said he wasn’t completely to blame but him being careless could’ve been an influence and obviously it can cause problems I mean a disclaimer at the end of the video knowing you have a lot of fragile people in your audience? Smh 

Im sorry for coming off harsch against you.

It was not my intention and for that im sorry.

I agree that Leo now has to incorporate much more warnings since this has happend and it is very unfortuneate that this has happend.

All im saying is that people have to take the responsebility they can for themselves and ofcourse we all should help the situation and try to make sure people dont misunderstand the teachings, since this is all about love in the end.

 

??

Edited May 21, 2021 by Adamq8

[Derricklast]

@Adamq8 Thank you he said to post your frustrations so that’s what I did like he said don’t go on the attack 

[Adamq8]

1 minute ago, Derricklast said:

@Adamq8 Thank you he said to post your frustrations so that’s what I did like he said don’t go on the attack 

1 hour ago, Derricklast said:

 

Yes it is good to be honest with how you feel ?

It is probably my bias with how i got raised and my worldview that people should take responsebility for themselves, but it does not work that way always so I realized i came out a bit to harsh and sounded a bit rude ?

But feels good that we solved it mate ?

I wish you a great day! ?

[JonasVE12]

My only critique of this place would be targetted towards the spirituality/enlightenment part of this work. Let's not forget Actualized.org is much bigger than that. There's so much right with this place. The level of integrity in this place is good for the most part, but on the side of enligtenment and spirituality, there are some blind spots that don't get attention.

People ask questions that are relevant to themself. So they shouldn't be bombarded with absolute idealistic truths that are nearly not nuanced and integrative enough for them to understand at that point. And the answers themself contain much hidden falsehood. For example, disowning the ego and looking at it as 'illusion'. Relative is as true as absolute. So only looking at something from the absolute perspective gives not enough credit to the validity of relativity. And what happens is that people that don't see the big picture and nuance, dissociate from that relative meaning because apparantly it's all falsehood from the absolute perspective. It is not falsehood.

This dualities like 'true/false', 'Illusion/real' should be banned from this place. Or they should be placed inside more nuanced and integrative contexts that give much more meaning to the person that is asking the question. I've been dissociated from my existance when I started this work with actualized.org. I used to had these heated arguments with my father, and I used to tell him he is all imagining that anger he had going on there and that he should not be angry. Even when my girlfriend was emotional about her dad that died, I told her to forget it because it's all in her mind and imagination. That's because my understanding wasn't nuanced enough to see the validity of ego and relativity. And that's what happens when you put infinity as a state on a pedestal. For example in psychedelic trips like Leo's 30 day 5 MEO retreat, saying that he experienced much higher levels of consciousness because he was in temporary ego dissolution. If you trust Leo, and him saying such things, it opens your mind to the possibility that ego disolution is indeed higher consciousness. 

I see it so often here that people ask these questions like 'How to become happy, socially free, get rid of emotional issues' and they get answered with too much enlightenment absolute BS that don't meet the person where is at, rather they help him dissociate more from what they need to look at more deeply, and that's their ego. 

Question: 'I'm homeless, live on the street and I'm almost freezing to death'

Answer: 'Temperature is imagination. Drop your beliefs. All is here now. Everything is perfect.' 

[Scholar]

What we are talking about here will be very difficult to pin down and it will be very easy to simply create rationalizations why each of us are correct. I can create rationalizations why Leo is harmful, and he can give rationalizations why actually no, he did everything he could to prevent this.

One thing I want to say from the beginning: I think it is unfair that Leo is making this about his teachings, rather than about, what I think most will agree, the critique of the way he advocates them. We are all here because we found use in his teachings and most of us Love and appreciate Leo. This is not about being against Leo, against his realizations, or anything of that sort of manner. It will become about this if Leo pushes this kind of narrative. I disagree, for me this is purely about what I believe to be some things about Leo that I think are worthy of critique. It is a lot of feedback so I expect Leo to be dismissive of most of it, he is a human after all. And I do believe that Leo will not ever be a perfect human, I don't expect him to be. But I do believe this is important and that the insights we are gaining will be important for future teachers and this community aswell.

All of us, including Leo, have an expiration date. If this was not so, our ignorance and blindness would live on forever and the world would remain as it is. Leo is not the pinacle of evolution, nor am I. There will be far wiser people around in the future who will at one glance see the "flaws" in all of us.

 

 

So firstly, I think one important aspect that is lacking in Leo's videos and here on this forum, is that he often makes it very much seem like the Framework he is using to explain to you things is actually equivalent to that which those frameworks point to. Now, I understand that Leo makes remarks that these are just Frameworks (I think he did so more in the past than now), but I think both in the way he then proceeds to speak about the Framework, aswell as the importance he attributes to them, actually communicate the opposite. He can respond "No, look here and here I clearly said this is all just a scaffolding which in the end you let go of because it isn't Truth!", but actually then he proceeds to treat those frameworks as if they were Truth, rather than as a tool. You can clearly sense this energetically, he has an attachment to these models he has created. I am not saying they are even bad models, but I believe his attachment to them, his need to defend them, his need to communicate them in this way, is unhealthy.

Now, Leo can argue that this is not the case, but when we look at his followers and people of this forum, we have clear evidence that actually it is the case that people take on these models as Truth and then proceed to communicate them in a very gospel like manner. Firstly, when someone asks the question, usually people give that person an answer. An answer that is not and cannot be the Truth. Infact an answer that might not even help the person and that if they do adopt as "Truth", might hinder their progress. So what exactly is the purpose of this answer? If it's entire original point was to be a framework to help people get to the Truth, then you have just misused that framework. You did not use it to help this person, you just gave them the answer, as if this was the Truth they needed to hear.

Now, I think there is a reason why this is a naturally tendency on this forum. Leo does this all the time too. To me it seems like the natural dynamic resulting in the form of communication, which is pretty much limited to test messages, makes it much more difficult to gage  where a person is at. See, if someone asks me a question about the nature of existence in person, I can immediately read from their faces where they are at and what answer would be appropriate. I might tell them "No, this is nonsense, no nature of existence for you, sit down and do X", or I might tell them "Ah okay, well here is what I think will help you, look at it this way for now".

I would never tell them "You are just imagining this lol, haha just become conscious of it!". In what world would this help anyone? This kind of advice is appropriate at a very specific point of someones inquiry or journey. And it's not even that useful after that either. But here in this community we don't look at these frameworks that way, we treat them as if they were Truth.

So, let's use the framework of "dream" vs "awake". Now, firstly let us be clearly that this is a framework, a very human-centric perspective. A dream has very specific connotations, it carries with it ideas. We use the term "dream", because these ideas are kind of useful in the way of looking at this certain phenomena, actually at a certain point at time. But that's not what the phenomena is. It's not actually "dream", it's not actually "imagination". "God imagining things", is a framework, it has nothing to do with Truth. It has everything to do with human interpretation, used to navigate this landscape. Now the problem I see with Leo and his advocacy is that he very much makes it about the framework and I am not quite certain if he is conscious of this. To me Leo is very attached to intellectualism and he is risiding much of his time in the "left brain mode". Many of the symptoms I see, with the way he behaves and interacts with people, I view as a consequence of this choice to reside in a certain mode of being over the other. Leo will frame this as his authentic self, I will disagree and call it a tendency he has rationalized to fully embrace.

I am not trying to judge Leo for this, but I do think it makes him a less holistic and embodied person. I don't quite know how to communicate this to Leo because he is absolutely certain he is correct about his ideas of the authentic self (something I believe he picked up from some of the self-help materials he consumed) and therefore would dismiss this outright. I don't want to go into detail with this, so I will move on to how frameworks are being misused.

 

A good example of frameworks being misused is when we have people talk about Relativity or Moral Unrealness. Now, the realization of Relativity is important, but it is not really Relativity. Again, that's just what your chimp mind uses to frame whatever you experienced, much like the concept of dream or imagination. Many people here don't truly have any sense of relativity, but yet they use this framework to justify and rationlize certain actions. They will tell you "morality is not real", when it suits them and then when something comes biting them in the ass, they quickly use the notions of morality and reframe them. They will call it something else. They will call it "unconsciousness", they will call it "foolish", they might call it anything. It should be very clear what is going on here, but it is not. People have a tendency to do this completely unconsciously. I think that is something we need to really work on as a community.

 

Another unhealthy thing about us is that we often have this attitude of "telling people how it is!". Now I myself experience being pulled into this dynamic, so I do not blame people for doing this. Leo style of advocacy very much is that of "Telling people how it is!", and I think that could work, but I just don't think it is working quite as well as it could. People have a tendency to adopt the energy of their Gurus, and while Leo might not agree that he is a Guru, everything he does communicates that he is indeed a Guru. A special kind of Youtube/Forum Guru. I think anyone who is honest would see this, including Leo. He can say whatever he wants about what he intends to do, but what he actually does has a specific impact that is undeniable. I can tell you "I am not your Guru", but if I then proceed to give you life advice, to tell you the nature of reality, to tell you to continue to listen to me, then what I am if not a Guru?

So, some people do adopt Leo's tendencies whether he intends to or not. And part of that is his "Telling people how it is!" attitude. This attitude I don't think stems from anything but what Leo considers his "authentic self". He enjoys communicating this way, and it is very much a Left Brain Mode tendency. To be full of certainty, to put oneself over others. To be judgemental, arrogant and so forth. This isn't Leo's authentic self, this is simply the tendency of the Left-Brain Mode. Both Leo's lack of compassion (or what he would call personal Love) and his issues with not being connected to his body basically stem from him residing way to much of his time in intellectualizations and analysis.

Now, I don't expect Leo to really change, he made his life purpose kind of dependent on being an intellectual. But atleast let us be aware of this and the drawbacks this will have. Some of which are lack of embodiment, intellectual defensiveness, lack of social awareness and so forth. Many people here will naturally fall into the category of Intellectualism, as do I, but I want you guys to know that this will lead to unhealthiness and that you can indeed change this.

Some of the problems I think stem from Leo's obsession with finding Truth. He has basically indoctronated himself for his entire life that this was the purpose of life. It's all about Truth, truth that is then understood and explained to others. But this is just his game, none of this has the importance he attributes to it. It's all wonderful and good, and maybe obsession is even needed to reach some of the things Leo reached, if he reached indeed anything, but projecting that onto all of reality I don't think is wise. There is an inherent lack of playfulness in the way Leo approaches this and again I think it is due to the Left Brain Mode. The Right Brain approaches this very differently, and it does not take it's frameworks seriously at all. It would look at it's Left Brain brother and kind of smirk at it, patting it on the head.

 

See, it doesn't matter whether Truth is discovered, known, understood or seen. It makes zero difference, because it is the Truth. It won't change anything. While Leo understands this intellectually, as I said, he does not embody this very well. And maybe he won't until the maggots start nibbling on his corpse. This might not matter to Leo, because Leo just wants more Truth. More and more and more. And then he wants to spoon feed all of you this Truth, because he enjoys it.

Now there is not a problem with any of this if we are all clear on what is happening and if Leo is conscious of this himself. And I think sometimes he is, but other times he is not.

 

[Dodo]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

1:04:00 you talk about Christianity , and how we can make anything dangerous when we misunderstand etc.. But in Christianity in particular there is a safeguard rail. It is very commonly known for Christians that if you commit suicide you won't be allowed in the kingdom of Heaven. Basically exactly what SoonHei was looking for with that jump - to find/ be in heaven itself.

If he believed a little bit that what Christianity is saying is relevant, it would have challenged his idea that jumping would get him quick access to that. He would probably be here if he had more of a Christian background and had this doubt about the suicide being "Good", because there is "nowhere else to go". 

About "Repent and you will be allowed in Heaven" being like a visa to do anything, it might appear like that, sure.. But I have had an insight about that one... How would one feel, when in Heaven, knowing that they don't deserve it... It would not be a good feeling and it would make heaven into a kind of hell, where you are like an undeserving dirt.

I want to deserve it even a little bit, and using Jesus' sacrifice as a visa to do anything is not part of that. I know I do sin and I have a sinful nature, but I am not actively trying to be that. I attempt my best, but I am not going to be perfect in this human form. All that is wanted of us is to do our best. Our best is definitely not to say "Well since Jesus died for my sins, lets go and sin for the lols" 

 

This is not a critique on your teachings, it is a critique of your critique of Christianity. 

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Dodo

[Tim R]

If I may add my two cents;

Please try to see the bigger picture here.

The things that are happening with and to Actualized.org and especially within the community are the result of the development of Actualized.org as such. Don't regard what has been happening (Connor, SoonHei, cult accusations, etc.) as incidents that simply pose a problem to an otherwise stable and indifferent structure, no:

these things are the first steps of the (more or less involuntary) transformation process of Actualized.org which will have to occur. Yesterday, I wrote:

Quote

The relation between "depth of content" and "degree of shallowness of average follower" is too wide of a gap. 

Quote

The discrepancy between the levels of development that meet within the framework of Actualized.org has become unsustainable.

This I think is the major obstacle, the integration and (partial) overcoming of which will result in (some) transformation of Actualized.org. 

You can't teach higher mathematics to a 5th grader, yet that's what 's been happening in Actualized.org. 

And of course, the fifth grader tries to understand, thinks he understands, but doesn't understand and then creates problems for himself and others when he tries to apply the teachings. 

 

The reason for why people misunderstand so much of what Leo says, is mostly because they simply aren't at a point in their development where they even can have any proper understanding. But the problem is, that they don't know it. When you watch Actualized.org on YouTube, you will find videos ranging from "How to make a woman squirt" to "God Realization".

Can you see the problem here?

The same people who want to make women squirt are suddenly listen to Leo talking about life being a dream, other people not being real and what not. You can't expect them to understand any of this. They will become solipsistic, nihilistic and in extreme cases suicidal or end up in a psychiatric institution because instead of carefully deconstructing their mind, they shatter it.

 

Please keep these things in mind when you engage in discussion here. This isn't about who's right or wrong, this is about solving a tricky problem which needs to be solved, because people have been harming themselves and others. Try to remember this and don't attack anyone personally.

[Etherial Cat]

So, basically Adeptus Psychonautica's channel gets most of its views by piggybacking on other famous Youtuber, and I am supposed to believe that this video is not an opportunistic attempt at eyeballs?

--

Actualized.org is not a cult. The forum member share multiple different perspectives, and I can't count the number of time where I've seen members contradict Leo, including myself.

Independence in thinking is one of this place's core value, and I can guarantee you that I have never seen as many stubborn individual "would not take anything on someone's word" type. 

Nearly all members I know follows multiple other influences. Leo's integral perspective, and his approach to intellectual matters creates an environment ripe for convergence for people who are into self-help coming from all schools. 

I understand that the optic can be bad -as the mind utilize previous framework of understanding, jumping to the conclusion that it is a cult is "easy", but it's a bias which shouldn't be fueled, nor instrumentalized.

Also, a lot of members do not see necessarily Leo as a guru. Like the user @kieranperez mentioned it earlier, I see him more like a brother or self-help master. The message is clear: follow your own authority. 

[Scholar]

9 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

So, basically Adeptus Psychonautica's channel gets most of its views by piggybacking on other famous Youtuber, and I am supposed to believe that this video is not an opportunistic attempt at eyeballs?

The guy seems pretty genuine, I don't think it has to do with opportunism. Be careful about projecting onto others because you disagree with them. The guy seems genuinely concerned to me.

[mandyjw]

I guess that I see or envision this place as a more open community than @Leo Gura intends for it to be. Perhaps that's my own fantasy. I believe there is immense need for spiritual communities such as this right now, where people can talk and interact with a huge variety of teachings and be introduced to understanding things from different viewpoints. The High Consciousness Resources section of this forum is a beautiful example of this. 

I'm incredibly grateful for this community and for Leo's videos which I discovered back in 2014 which had a huge impact on my life. I see a lot of wisdom in his work but I do see a lot of misunderstandings especially ones that are reinforced here on the forum in general, as a sort of belief framework. 

I do not believe that this community or Leo is in any way responsible for Soonhei's death. I think that there is a lot of fear and need to control being acted out here in response that is unnecessary. However, I do see a lot of suffering and beliefs that hold this suffering in place being perpetuated here on the forum, in the form of the misunderstandings I mentioned. 

 

[Scholar]

3 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

His best performing videos are either about Leo or Connor Murphy. 

Of course, the most recent ones will take some time to catch up with older videos, but one can see that "it pays" well.

Now, I don't say that he's not having some concerns, but this factor gives me the right to talk about this conflict of interest and a potential desire to gain youtube views from the situation. And that mentality doesn't exactly nurture objectivity.

I really doubt that this is his motivation to make videos about this. I don't get the impression that this person is motivated by views.