Major Discussion Of Actualized.org Teachings & The Future

[Brivido]

I have been reading a lot of comments the past few days, before making up my mind about what has happened. The main issue seems to be that the majority of people that critique and misinterpret Leo's work are not able to distinguish between Absolute Truth and relative truth. 

This doesn't make much sense to me, because I have always been able to make such a distinction, but the people that come on this forum have various level of development and I can see how a newbie might misunderstand a True spiritual principle like "All fears are illusion". My suggestion is to make a video or a post about the topic of Absolut Truth and relative truth and pin it at the top of the forum, so that it is clearly stated that they are two different things.

I have noticed another problem with the spiritual community in general. Spiritual people tend to become crazy and forget how to behave like a normal human being. The main issue is that on the spiritual path you might see things out of this world and if your mind is not malleable enough you might go insane. I wish that people would be able to have a mystical experience or chat with an alien on Friday and then be able to go to work at the office on Monday, as if nothing special as happened. A video along the line of "How not to lose your mind while on the spiritual path" is much needed.

Again, some people on this forum have been studying non-duality for years and others are completely new to the path. In my opinion, it has to be stressed more that studying the map of the non-dual territory actually matters, otherwise you might crash hard. Leo, you used to do that in the past way more, now you are promoting psychedelics. Which is fine to me, but promoting psychedelics to a newbie might have negative repercussions. I think you should make clear that before getting serious with psychedelics a newbie should have a clear understanding of non-duality. Personally, before trying any kind of psychedelic I have studied non-duality for five years or even more, and those five years of study have helped me a lot making sense of what I have experienced during my psychedelics session and staying a functional human being.

I hope this post is going to help somehow @Leo Gura

[SageModeAustin]

@Leo Gura don't delete me your teachings have saved my life literally and improved my life in various ways. The only thing that i think is off-putting is sometimes you can come off "mean" or narcissitic on the forums. Besides that, i think your work is incredible and has helped tons of people. there will always be haters. always. 

[Florian]

Im gonna use this opportunity to get out my thoughts regarding you @Leo Gura, this forum and myself.

I would say I'm not really that invested in this forum and don't really care about being a part of this community. Sometimes I start a thread or comment under a thread when I feel like it or I see that I could maybe actually help someone. But I love just reading through some interesting sounding topics and looking if there is some goldnugget I can keep, cause I found quite a lot of gold nuggets on this forum. I just randomly read through the comments and then *puff* I read one sentence that sticks with me and gives me some value, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. I think I'm quite good at distinguishing what is actually valuable and what is not. Most of the times these comments are from Leo, so I started to just go on his profile everytime I'm on this website and read through his latest comments on any topic. 

Sometimes I wonder if people on this forum remember me from my past comments but idk. Would be interesting for me to hear from someone who reads this or from you Leo.

I think you are a pretty great human being Leo and you really have a lot of value to offer the world and I am lucky to have found you. I also think I am lucky that I resonate with you and pick up what you have to say super fast. It's fascinating to me to witness such a great understanding for all kinds of topics.  You really are a wise motherfucker. I had a phase where I idolised you and thought you must be "perfect", but now I see that you are also just a human and have some flaws. Of course these flaws are just flaws because I judge them as such but I mean thats what this post is about. I wrote the last sentence because I imagined some people criticizing me for saying you have flaws.

I now think I am just writing this all because I do infact kind of care about being a part of this community, contrary to what I wrote at the beginning, at least a little bit. Also because I like interacting with you Leo, not mainly because I hope to gain more wisdom from that really, I just read without commenting for that, but just cause it makes me feel good.

That's my thoughts for now, maybe I write another comment if I feel like it later.

 

[Jacob Morres]

Leos teachings actually helped aid me into letting go of my suicidal ideologies. Healing through consciousness, a strong vision, a self actualized future really gave me hope and progress in my life. Thank you leo 

[Derek White]

Hi Leo, 

I don't have any fundamental disagreements with you on anything. I only have one gripe:

Why don't you take any action against users like @Preety_India? She has spammed this thread multiple times, made multiple posts about unrelated topics here. She makes multiple posts in sub-forums which if made by other users would probably get banned for not being serious enough. Like the user before me said, her behavior on the forum is very irritating. There are too many things to list. In all honesty, you and the mod seem biased toward her. If it was any other user you would have banned them or at least told them to clean up their act. Just because she is friends with some people here and is an old member doesn't mean she should get away with bad attitude. You can't have a proper conversation with members like her. The worse part about is that once you encounter such members you start to talk in their language. I have seen my posts get nastier after having conversations with her. She just ruins the whole experience. I've had arguments with other users but none have been as bad as her. It also creates a sense of unfairness; you go easy on some members and hard on others. And if you want me to leave this forum for pointing this out I gladly will, I think it's completely unfair that a user like this exists under your nose and you do nothing about it. If it was anyone else you would do something about them.

I was about to point out the same thing, @Tetcher2 beat me by seconds. Very well put. 

1 hour ago, Tetcher2 said:

Last point is somewhat separate, it's feedback about the experience I had on this forum. Why is user @Preety_India allowed to act so unhinged on this forum when users have been banned or threatened to be banned for less ? Inflaming conversations for no reason, dropping outrageous one liners, even on this thread some users were triggered from page one, she has like 15+ posts on this thread. That's statistically one of the leading source of drama (do the math) but if the mods don't want to see it they must like it. The reason I'm writing this paragraph is this specific thread :

She's doing targeted harassment on another user that she knows reads her and no mod bats an eye ? There is something wrong with the mod community on this forum. They shouldn't give someone preferential treatment just because that person is a woman and rubs them the right way. Maybe she was harassed first in which case the harassers should have been dealt with by mods. It apparently didn't happen but the post I linked happened and is very wrong, not everybody on this forum has the development level to avoid baits. So Leo/mods grow a spine or do as you will but at this rate this is Sheela in the making.

Also, I just think that your own posts on the forum can be very insensitive. I know you're going to say as you become more conscious you start caring less what other have to say, but I would tell you that if you truly don't care then you should stop posting videos to help people all together. If your goal is to help people, your occasional insensitive comments here create needless drama and are not helping. Being "authentic" shouldn't mean blurting anything that comes to your mind. So that something to be aware of as well.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Derek White

[Windappreciator]

@Tetcher2 if the academic were to switch with the farmer, he would get accustomed to it in couple days, the stage blue farmer however is lost and likely will stay lost in strict distinctions about everything wrong with these academics.

Hard working is not exclusive to stage blue.

Stage blue has little vision for smart working also.

There are studies that wilk simply overwhelme most stage blue farmers by the amount of abstraction required, the farmer will lose his mind.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Windappreciator

[Matt Skinner]

I think, in general, more emphasized and frequent disclaimers regarding self-harm and responsible action could be helpful. It doesn’t have to be a big change. Ironically, I actually think it could make your content more accessible.

I know people who’ve dismissed your work simply because they think saying something like “death is imaginary” or “other people are imaginary” is irresponsible and dangerous. You do make disclaimers to balance how unstable people may react to these statements, but sometimes they aren’t until late in the video, or they’re ONLY at the beginning. I know it can ruin the flow, but addressing it right at the beginning AND several times throughout/whenever certain topics come up could help.

In general, maybe emphasize the importance and value of the relative/form domain of existence EVEN more than you already do. That dichotomy—communicating that this is a dream, you are God, nothingness, etc. while also emphasizing the value of a healthy developed ego, is what makes your teachings special imo.

It’s certainly a tricky balance to strike—like, how much do you need to cater to unstable people? Tricky, tricky.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Matt Skinner

[Preety_India]

@Derek White  you have been warned before for attacking me 

Please stop your smear campaign against me 

If you don't like my comments you have the ignore option .

If I don't like someone's comments I simply ignore them .

Stop harassing me with your constant bias.

I have expressed my opinions in this thread. That's not called spamming 

You have harassed me on the forum by making personal attacks on me even before.

You're doing it once again 

 

I have refrained from talking to you. Why are you again trying to drag me into this 

I'm not here to impress you 

So if you don't like me, then it's not my problem or the mods problem.

Stop engaging in personal attacks.

You have been warned before.

stop using this thread as an opportunity to make personal attacks against me.

 

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Preety_India

[Dreamcatcher]

I've been a silent follower of Leo's content for almost 6 years now, and I find it oustanding how much Leo has grown during the last years, that's actually what has made me stick around. From 10-20 minute sequences (I hope I recall it correctly) about how to make a girl fall in love with you (or squirt) to the Infinite Godhead. But also the way you teach and speak have transformed and I can tell by the look in your eyes that you have "seen things" that I can only imagine. But also in your earlier years you could see the huge potential in your videos when tackling the questions that have excited us the most. I found comfort in learing more about self-actualizing and striving to be the best version of myself. Since then your teachings have become more radical, more eye-opening and more shocking, and finally what made me stick was that I've had experiences in the sleeping state that I was sorting out on my own. This radical perspective helped me integrate something that I felt to be true. But that's not the only side of the coin. I've also struggled with mental health issues and took some of your descriptions out of the context in which they were presented. This left me feeling passive and nihilistic, so what is to be done within a dream? The point is that I haven't become fully conscious of the dream itself, so this is my reality. But that's just what happens when you present someone who isn't rock solid in their personality and sense of the world with these ideas. You have stressed enough, that it doesn't have to be taken as a belief system, but "some" people are looking for a belief system, after all science can't promote them with the same sense of security anymore.

I make a bold claim, it it wasn't for belief systems, a significant amount of content in this forum wouldn't exist. If we understood that it is not about belief systems, what's the point in discussing all of these arguments? Do we arrive anywhere? Or is this more mental masturbation?

That's why I personally would suggest, that you spend less time on trying to correct people's misunderstandings about your teachings and focus more on providing and illustrating the methods. You try your best to communicate what can't be, but do you think this will make people finally "crack"? Or are you just sorting out these insights on your own.

I think critical feedback is valuable but exposing yourself to corrupted ideas is not necessarily healthy.

 

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, intotheblack said:

My grievances are more regarding the promotion of pickup and advice given to male members on the  forum regarding relationships and women.  Which some of the female members here have called you out on before.  More loving and conscious advice could be promoted in this area.

Fair point. Thanks for the feedback. I will take it under consideration. Being more accommodating to the female perspective is something I've been trying to do more of. It takes unwiring some old habits.

Quote

How about making the forum more private and not public for everyone to see? 

How about making your videos more private through the website so that only members can view certain ones? deciding which ones you want the whole world to view and which ones should be members only.

That has many issues.

1 hour ago, Windappreciator said:

What will happen if other suicide cases occur that could be linked to actualized, even if it is not really your fault, will you be able to defend it off with PR? Maybe you would not need to much when your personality speeks for yourself?

If this forum continues for years, we will definitely have more suicidal people joining and there is always a possibility of someone following thru on it. There is no way I can prevent that. There are 40,000 suicides every year in the USA alone.

If I am going to be personally held responsible for every suicide that someone who sees one of my videos commits, then basically there cannot be a forum, or a comment section, or videos. Holding me personally responsible for the suicide of a person I have never talked to is an absurd standard which you would never hold any serious professional to. And you would feel outraged if anyone held you to such standard.

1 hour ago, Tetcher2 said:

Consciousness work :  I find value in your work when it comes to your trip reports, protocols and research. There are few contradictions for instance when you say "what I communicate is only what is true at my current level of consciousness, it couldn't be otherwise" but then you threaten to ban anyone who challenges that love is the ultimate, or temporary experience doesn't make it less true. As per your first statement, and you made false statements in the past (eg. that you were rewiring your brain during your enlightenment experience on youtube, or the healing in god mode) someday you may hit a permanent experience or understanding and speak differently.

That is the nature of teaching and communication.

I could make the same counter-argument to those who deny Love as Absolute. I could say, "You are just being dogmatic and one day you may change your mind."

There are always going to be some things within a body of teaching which are core to the teaching we the teacher will refuse to compromise on. This is true of any teacher or teaching.

If you go to a Zen master and say, "But what if the Buddha wasn't enlightened? What if you are deluded?" The Zen master will laugh at you and kick you out of his zendo. Because if you truly feel the Buddha wasn't enlightened, you have no business being in a Zen classroom. You should go do more productive thing.

Endlessly arguing about spiritual topics is extremely counter-productive to spiritual work. Which is why we cannot have endless in-fighting and debate here. The problem is one of distraction. I want you doing the work, not arguing about Love.

Love to me is absolutely fundamental to this work. If you believe I'm deluded, fine, but then why are you here? Go follow someone who isn't deluded according to your logic. I will not compromise on Love. You can torture me and I will still tell you that Love is Absolute Truth. If you think that's closedminded and delusional, well, I cannot help you. You actually misunderstand what openmindedness means in this case.

Quote

Conscious politics : I mostly disagree with your entire conscious politics arc :

- Spiral dynamics : its merit is to introduce some common vocabulary and framework of understanding but to me is fundamentally flawed, especially the idea of verticality  (one stage is superior to the other). Let's compare stage blue and stage yellow : a stage blue farmer has a life of hard labour, has to work from 6am to 7pm, has little to no entertainment, manages to live like this for decades supported by his religiousness. A yellow stage academics spends his day debating people, living in his head building models and imagining interactions between systems but has the luxury of this time only because the blue farmer is producing food for him. If the academic had to replace the farmer he would have no clue and couldn't handle the rigor of such a life, physically exhausting, no mental entertainment, he would be unable to take over the farm. How can you say that the stage yellow is superior to the blue stage ? The blue farmer is a stronger being than the yellow academics on many levels (and the yellow is stronger on others, they are complimentary not superior/inferior). One counter argument is to say that the farmer can be yellow and the academics blue, it highlights another flaw of the SD : you can twist the SD model any way you want, if something doesn't fit your narrative just add a bit of percentage, eg "he has some green which explains why he said that but he really is mostly orange !",  it has no predictive value. Saying Trump is red is an illustration of that, you're putting him on the same level as a low education burglar or murderer.

- Trump/conservatives : This point is linked with the SD point because there is the underlying notion of value that I disagree with. First you say that all criticism is untenable, that you are Trump and Trump is Leo, that love is the ultimate, etc. Yet you are so strongly biased against Trump that it throws all the previous statements in the bin and make you look like you don't integrate your own realizations. And don't say that your stance on Trump is compatible with those statements, you nag him, you call him stupid, you are not equanimous. I don't feel strongly about Trump either way, my problem is the implication of your stance to your respect of democracy. Trump is not Hitler, to my knowledge he never made hateful comments about races or minorities unlike Hitler, the idea he would put people into death camps isn't serious. Now Trump got elected on key ideas that he advertised clearly, and those ideas are certainly in the purview of democracy. Tightening borders is in the purview of a democracy, citizens have the right to tighten their borders, medicare, monetary policy, foreign affairs, etc all those are in the purview of a democracy. Once he was elected his political opponents should have folded to some extent and reevaluated their positions towards the choice that had been made, this is democracy. If all you do is resist everything and refuse to reevaluate the slightest then you are not a democrat (as in pro-democracy).

That's fine. I'm happy to have discussions about political stuff and SD. I'm not concerned much about disagreements there. I'm more concerned about constant debates about core spiritual truths which do not progress a seek in any meaningful way.

Do not debate Love. Go become conscious of it. Or don't.

The reason for seeking to minimize debate is not for the sake my ego. The point is to create an environment in which people's reptilian brains are not constantly triggered into ideological battle. These ideological battles make spiritual work impossible. I don't like debate because it is extremely unproductive. And then we have to waste a lot of time moderating it.

[Proserpina]

1 hour ago, outlandish said:

@SoonHei committed a spiritual and physical suicide, he jumped in a leap of faith into infinity. Trouble is he left behind his finite family and all those who love him. 

If there was anyone who could perform Mahasamadhi on this forum it would no doubt have been Soonhei. His soul was pure. Even if it were not your typical Mahasamadhi. 

Why assume he abused the Truth, Leo?

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Proserpina said:

Why assume he abused the Truth, Leo?

"abused the Truth" is a relative notion. If he is happy with his action then good for him. But we gotta deal with the fallout which requires telling people that our teachings have never been about physical harm to the body. Which is true.

[Ajagari]

This is my first forum post although I have been a silent follower of your work for years. I have received an incredible amount of value from your teachings and can say that I wholeheartedly support your work.
At no point did I get the impression that you were advocating harm to your physical body. Quite the opposite. I find your teachings to be very life affirming. Of course, I don't agree with absolutely every detail of your teachings and at times I find your delivery method a bit too edgy. But this I can acknowledge as your personal authentic way of expressing things and it's okay for me. I think this is true for the vast majority of your followers.  I therefore believe that the picture on the forum is distorted. I think the vast majority of your followers just stay quietly in the background, is doing the work and simply enjoys your and their own development process.
So please Leo don't get the impression that the amount of criticism over the last few days is somehow representative for the majority of your followers.

[DnoReally]

Spiral Dynamics isn't nearly as useful or accurate as people make it out to be. There I said it.

[soos_mite_ah]

1 hour ago, Brivido said:

This doesn't make much sense to me, because I have always been able to make such a distinction, but the people that come on this forum have various level of development and I can see how a newbie might misunderstand a True spiritual principle like "All fears are illusion". My suggestion is to make a video or a post about the topic of Absolut Truth and relative truth and pin it at the top of the forum, so that it is clearly stated that they are two different things.

I have noticed another problem with the spiritual community in general. Spiritual people tend to become crazy and forget how to behave like a normal human being.

I second this. I think clearing up issues with absolute truth and relative truth is an important step in making this type of work safer for people who are just getting into it. I have seen people use the absolute perspective in situations where it isn't appropriate nor constructive. I do remember there being threads and posts of people talking about how rape isn't evil. In a philosophical discussion one can make the argument that evil is a label we project on to things to ensure we keep ourselves safe, but when you use that same statement in the context of dating advice or something of that sort, it can be incredibly damaging and gaslighting for people who have dealt with things such as rape or any other form of sexual harassment. 

Additionally, differentiating between absolute and relative truth and knowing where to apply it is important given the context of the situation. Blanketing over an issue with platitudes of absolute truth can result in things like false equivalency which can also lead to things like zen devilry. I'll use survival as an example. In the absolute sense everything is survival but in the relative sense there are different ways to go about it ranging from healthy and conscious to dysfunctional and unconscious. While the absolute truth that everything is survival isn't false or misleading, it can mesh together healthy forms of survival and unhealthy forms of survival resulting in the false equivalency problem. Some people can look at that without knowing how to differentiate when to implement relative and absolute truths and be feel justified in dysfunctional practices. 

Same with things like nonduality. While I have limited experience and knowledge regarding this subject and I'm still on the journey of figuring things out on my own, I do believe that for concepts in nonduality, again, there is a time and place for it and it's important to be able to discern that especially when advice is given. This is a good place to go through a vetting process of sorts and try to determine where people are at based on the discussion they are having and meet those people where they're at. Like for instance if someone is in a toxic situation and they can't get out due to logistical issues, it's more important to empathize and validate that experience along with giving that person coping skills in the meantime instead of telling that person that this is a dream and is all in their head since that can do more harm than good. While I do see most users understanding this, sometimes I do encounter people getting so spiritual to where they forget how to behave like normal human beings.

I think addressing the time and place to effectively use what we know on an absolute and relative level can work through much of these problems. That will clarify a lot of things that people misconstrue imo. Part of learning is being able to make distinctions and having accurate discernment. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by soos_mite_ah

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Ajagari said:

I think the vast majority of your followers just stay quietly in the background, is doing the work and simply enjoys your and their own development process.

Oh, that's definitely true. The people doing the deepest work are not here talking.

2 minutes ago, DnoReally said:

Spiral Dynamics isn't nearly as useful or accurate as people make it out to be. There I said it.

Feel free to write Don Beck an email about that

[caspex]

I am good with your work. Only thing I'd like to point out is that I see many people obsessed over you. Well this problem is unavoidable but just wanted to say it. Some people have created an ideology around you and your work and a feeling of 'home', now that it is getting 'threatened' under their eyes, they're getting defensive, which only makes you look more like a cult. Just hoping nothing like Osho happens with you where you get dragged down by your followers, cuz I derive lots of benefiits from your work.

[Proserpina]

Typical/atypical mahasamadhi cases may be on the rise as communities evolve and become more conscious.  There should be a video to explain mahasamadhi to avoid people freaking out (apart from grieving) and assuming all kinds of things about spirituality.  Mahasamadhi is only appropriate at certain times and is not the goal alone of spirituality. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Proserpina

[herghly]

@Preety_India The way you leave comments on youtube gives off a culty vibe.  I think there are better ways for you to defend Leo's image, and sometimes the best thing to do is to do nothing at all 

[Dodo]

8 hours ago, Consilience said:

One of my fundamental, perceived, disagreements is your dismissal of manual practices like meditation. Not that you dismiss them per-say, but that you significantly down play their effectiveness due to a personal lack of success and label the people who have serious success with them as “spiritually gifted.” Yet I do not believe that should warrant me leaving the forum or to stop watching your videos just because I perceive meditation differently than you.

In my view, the healthiest reaction would be for you to be open to the possibility that meditation, for example, is much more widely effective than the “spiritual genetics” argument claims and for me to be open to the possibility that most people will never have any hope of grounding high levels of God realization while sober.

Id appreciate the opportunity to share my views on this in the future though without being labeled as a contrarian and asked to leave. Ive been working on a series of posts which may fall into the categorization of contradicting your teachings. Not in the ultimate nature of truth, but in the accessibility of truth regarding states of consciousness.

Where does the line get drawn with too much contradiction? Having a community providing some level of criticism is healthy not only for you personally, but for the overall health of Actualized.org

@Leo Gura

Absolutely agree with this. We cannot all have the same opinions on everything and it would stunt growth if we all were just circlejerking each other. 

I don't like to argue. If I disagree with something or don't partake in it, it doesn't mean I put it in the garbage pile and know its bad/wrong. I have a section in my mind under question mark and these things I do not agree with might later be changed - or not.

I love Leos work on self inquiry and I believe there should be tolerance and room for practicing spirituality without using psychedelics and still using this forum.

That said, I am a user of -5meo-THC which is considered a mild psychedelic.

 

Regarding Leo's teachings about death, from my understanding, put simply, he does not support or encourage suicide, because he talks about how this experience now, including the experience of having a body, is actually nothingness /death itself. 

So one would only want to get rid of the body to experience death if they believed they are not already dead. Leo's teachings are absolutely the opposite. If you do not identify with the body, why so eager to get rid of it? If you're already dead, why the need to experience "conscious death". Etc, etc.. 

When realising you're not your car, you wouldn't smash your car to bits, it is still a useful tool.

It does, however, make it easier to let go of the car when it's time comes, which is a positive. 

The problem comes when the milk (truth) gets mixed with the poison of the egoic mind and create a story that appears to be true, because it looks like milk...

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Dodo