Soonhei (Member of this community) killed himself to experience Conscious Death. :-(

[Dreamcatcher]

43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This idea that anything whatsoever in these teachings is even remotely close to suicide needs to end right now. There is no such confusion in the mind of any reasonable or sane person. Please stop spreading such rumors. Keep in mind that if you guys insist on promoting such ideas about my work, I will stop sharing my teachings with you entirely. And then you will be all on your own.

I think this can't be stressed enough. But if you're mentally unstable or clinically ill, taking spiritual ideas in some distorted way can do harm. But that's because being mentally unstable or clinically ill will cause harm - either to yourself or others. It's unreasonable to make teachings responsible for that. It's always the psyche that tries to make sense of something and if that sense is distorted, it will have its effect. What exactly was the case, can only be guessed. My fair guess is that to some extend sprirituality served (for any reason) as a gateway out.

[Leo Gura]

I want to clarity for people who might be reading this anew that measures will be taken to further minimize misunderstanding of the teachings and make things extra clear regarding suicide and other potential dangers and how to avoid them. So don't get the idea that nothing is being done or no feedback is being listened to.

Making the teachings safer and clearer is something I hold as important.

But you also need to understand that they will never be fool-proof and people will ignore warnings even when they are given. The kind of people who are most susceptible to misusing the teachings are precisely those who will tend to skip over warnings.

[kinesin]

@Leo Gura  This is fair.  I believe that ultimately, all a reasonable person can ask for is to make whatever efforts are within our power to minimize needless suffering, but not to completely erase it at all costs.  Tragic outcomes cannot be completely immunized against, there's no set of rules or regulations which would completely and utterly protect every individual from even the slightest harm.  That said, the fact that it's impossible to negate 100% of the issue doesn't mean we shouldn't seek to address even 1% of it.  Your brand, this community, is ultimately a fluid living organism which must be shaped by truth and informed by the heart.  When situations like this or Connor occur, this is essentially God knocking on the window and saying "psst... you may want to change something a bit here".  This is the sentiment behind people's concern for the future of the community - this is why people are prompting you to consider what can possibly be done.

You know I've been an outspoken critic of you, but I consider myself to be a fair one.  You've listened to the concerns of the community, you've listened to the hints God has given and I respect you for being fluid enough to respond and evolve appropriately here.

[StarStruck]

Some people use this tragedy to project their daddy issues on Leo. 

The point is that you shouldn't do hard-core spirituality if you have mental or emotional problems and can't afford therapy. 

Is this fair? No it is not fair but this is how it is. I wouldn't do spirituality if I couldn't afford therapy. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by StarStruck

[jimwell]

34 minutes ago, Surfingthewave said:

@jimwell

That was a beautiful post thank you.

My pleasure. I just did what I needed to do.

[How to be wise]

People who commit suicide to attain enlightenment or escape suffering will never realise that it doesn’t work, because there is no experience after death, so you can’t experience the goal that you wanted. The person who kills himself to escape suffering will not experience peace after he dies, because there is no ‘him’ anymore. He doesn’t experience ‘the end of suffering’, so his suffering doesn’t really end. 

[ivankiss]

I feel like I should apologise to the forum.

I'm still in shock and I got carried away with my comments. I should not be resolving my emotions on here, in this manner.

I disagree with some stuff, but the way I expressed that was not healthy. 

Apologies to Sunny's family, Leo and the forum.

Peace.

[tuckerwphotography]

2 hours ago, Mu_ said:

The best way I can answer this for you is if I were to cut off your penis would it hurt, would you be left with the pain and difficulty of what that means your life from that point on?

@Mu_ Yes, but that example involves me, which is right here right now. I was asking about somebody else like my cousin in Georgia. If he gets his penis cut off, and I don't know about it, did it actually happen?

[How to be wise]

@Petals Imagine falling asleep whilst working. Notice that you will only realise that you fell asleep after you wake up! Before you wake up, you don’t know that you fell asleep. Similarly, the person who kills himself won’t really know that their suffering ended, because to realise that, you need to wake up first, which can’t happen anymore.

[billiesimon]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Unfortunately that does not stop the trolls and cynics.

But we shall see. I expect backlash over all this regardless. We will try to make the best of it. 

Probably your answer is yes, but I'll ask.

Going meta on this possible backlash... is it a challenge created by the Self/God to put you to test and evolve even more? 

I mean... From the highest perspective you're just being tested even more inside "the dream", right? 

[RMQualtrough]

1 minute ago, How to be wise said:

@Petals Imagine falling asleep whilst working. Notice that you will only realise that you fell asleep after you wake up! Before you wake up, you don’t know that you fell asleep. Similarly, the person who kills himself won’t really know that their suffering ended, because to realise that, you need to wake up first, which can’t happen anymore.

I think there's motivation not necessarily to experience an end to suffering, but to prevent experiencing MORE suffering.

[Scholar]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Christianity, Judaism, and Islam tell you that if you die you are going to heaven. But who interprets that as an invitation to jump off a bridge?

These religions actually tell you that if you commit suicide you go to hell. But those that do say committing Jihad grants you heaven actually do lead to people interpreting that as an invitation to blowing themselves up together with others.

[The0Self]

50 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

People who commit suicide to attain enlightenment or escape suffering will never realise that it doesn’t work, because there is no experience after death, so you can’t experience the goal that you wanted. The person who kills himself to escape suffering will not experience peace after he dies, because there is no ‘him’ anymore. He doesn’t experience ‘the end of suffering’, so his suffering doesn’t really end. 

Close, but doesn't seem to absolutely be the case. Sure, an end to experience would not provide peace, obviously... for the reason you suggest. But you additionally assume not only that experience ends at body death, but also that experience is real in the first place.

[Scholar]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

But you also need to understand that they will never be fool-proof and people will ignore warnings even when they are given. The kind of people who are most susceptible to misusing the teachings are precisely those who will tend to skip over warnings.

There is no way for you to actually justify this line of reasoning and you know it. A direct consequence of your philosophy is that you cannot say any of this was bad, foolish or ignorant. Who constitutes what a misusage of teachings are? I guess if it's bad PR for you, it must be misusage.

 

Warnings from what exactly? A breaching of your personal moral code that you have established for your own selfish reasons? You can't reason yourself out of this.

[The0Self]

3 minutes ago, Scholar said:

There is no way for you to actually justify this line of reasoning and you know it. A direct consequence of your philosophy is that you cannot say any of this was bad, foolish or ignorant. Who constitutes what a misusage of teachings are? I guess if it's bad PR for you, it must be misusage.

 

Warnings from what exactly? A breaching of your personal moral code that you have established for your own selfish reasons? You can't reason yourself out of this.

Pretty sure he literally said it was foolish. Definitely at least implied that, among other things. Or equivalent. It's certainly in the air... Don't know what more you want.

Edited May 20, 2021 by The0Self

[Dodo]

24 minutes ago, tuckerwphotography said:

@Mu_ Yes, but that example involves me, which is right here right now. I was asking about somebody else like my cousin in Georgia. If he gets his penis cut off, and I don't know about it, did it actually happen?

Great question, even though probably shouldn't be in this thread..

That depends, is your cousin aware? See for you it might not have happened, but for him it has, since he is awareness also, not just you. 

You are both holding space and have different equally real or unreal experiences. 

 

[Snader]

Didn't really want to post more than my condolences on this thread but couldn't help myself.

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

In the future I may remove every social aspect of Actualized.org entirely. No comments, no forum. Just videos. Because that is the core of what I do. I am not a babysitter. I am a researcher. And we don't have any corporate team here.

For what I know this might be the right call for you. I've seen how much you spend time on this forum and even though it's really appreciated and boosts the agenda of this forum, I find it's ridiculous, as there is so much other things you could put your time and energy into. From the big picture perspective I think your creative input would be most efficiently utilized on other domains such as improving science and maybe working on your new ways of teaching in the future. What you are trying to do with science as an example, will have much bigger and more positive impact on the society and mankind at large in the long run, than answering people's questions, although that's useful too. So you spending more time on that would be a blessing.

Anyway, if you ever make the choice of withdrawing from the forum, I think it would be a huge mistake to close the forum completely, if there is a possibility to keep it up running with moderate effort. You've already gathered a superb team of moderators, whom I think would have nothing against taking more responsibility on the forum for the sake of keeping it healthy and clean. I think this community will be really efficient for 10s of years to come (of course if moderated really strictly) as this is one of a kind, so it would be a crime to take it down, saying from perspective of someone who finds shitloads of value from it.

Of course you do what you want to do and you have no obligations whatsoever to even make a decision that would elevate consciousness or be most beneficial to mankind or whatever. You are completely free to do what you want, and I think you also personally intend to give more room to your personal desires in the future, which is amazing. And with personal desires I don't directly mean ego.

I said nothing you don't already know, but just wanted to show my concern for your possible intention.

I also know you don't really care about gratitude and you're more like trying to avoid getting flattered by it, but I find it tremendously admirable how patient and tolerant you are with people here, and reading your replies on this thread astounded me once again. You nerves are made of titan and that's something that really inspires me. I work with difficult customers almost daily and I thought I'm really patient, but by observing the feedback, challenging, criticism you face and the same questions like day after day, etc. I can say I would've packed my things and left the fuck out of here a long time ago if I were you  

AND I'M NOT BLAMING ANYBODY PERSONALLY, I'M GUILTY OF THAT TOO!

Also the selfless and unbiased way you present facts and bring on your agendas and motivations is truly a clear embodiment of Integrity while it oozes compassion while being brutal and cold at the same time. I love it.

[Scholar]

3 minutes ago, The0Self said:

Pretty sure he literally said it was foolish. Definitely at least implied that, among other things. Or equivalent. It's certainly in the air... Don't know what more you want.

He can say what he wants, but it's nonsense and he knows this. If there is no such thing as objective morality, there certainly is no such thing as objective foolishness.

It's just better PR to say otherwise.

[The0Self]

4 minutes ago, Scholar said:

He can say what he wants, but it's nonsense and he knows this. If there is no such thing as objective morality, there certainly is no such thing as objective foolishness.

It's just better PR to say otherwise.

Why does morality have to be objective? Can't something simply be foolish? Why does it have to be ultimately so?

Your complaints seem to come from fear + trying to be a good person -- think of its potential consequences. People sometimes commit suicide, and it isn't glorified here.

Edited May 20, 2021 by The0Self

[Scholar]

2 minutes ago, The0Self said:

Why does morality have to be objective? Can't something simply be foolish? Why does it have to be ultimately so?

When you say "something is simply foolish", you are implying objectivity without being aware of it. You can call it foolish, but in the grand scheme of things, according to Leo's philosophy, it all must be Perfection and Wisdom. There could not possibly be anything foolish in reality.