Soonhei (Member of this community) killed himself to experience Conscious Death. :-(

[Etherial Cat]

I'm sick to my stomach.

RIP Sunny, and my condolences to all his family members. My thoughts also go to everyone who has been shook by his death. This is an absolute tragedy.

[Cubbage]

My condolences, he was a truly valuable member of the forum, tragic to hear what has happened. 

[somegirl]

I have a question. If he died on May 3rd, why is OP and Sunny's sister talking about it just now ,after some days have passed?

If this is true, it's truly sad and I wish his family and friends to find peace soon. 

[Shin]

47 minutes ago, kinesin said:

Here's the issue -

There is a reason why responsible spiritual teachers purposefully withhold advanced teachings from students until they've demonstrated clear evidence of having reached preceding levels necessary to understand them.  There is a reason why a responsible spiritual teacher has a close, in-person relationship with their students.

Leo is not a responsible teacher.  Leo is simply a guy like any of us, a regular person who is trying to navigate his way along the spiritual path.  Why do we fall into the trap of believing that Leo is anything more than this?  Because Leo has turned his personal spiritual journey into a brand, in order to make money.  This public image, the youtube channel with many subscribers, the forum, all of it creates a public perception of 'Leo Gura' which is much larger and more significant than the man himself.

The fact is, many of us here have long seen the warning signs of these dangers.  Not only the most tragic examples such as Connor and Soonhei, but also the countless smaller examples we see nearly every day where a person comes to the forum experiencing mental distress only to be told by Leo, Nahm or others that their feelings and situation are nothing more than a dream.  I find myself pointing out regularly that it is not helpful to simply state advanced teachings as if they are facts, without even acknowledging the mindset of the listener.

Something needs to change.  A personal spiritual journey isn't supposed to be public like this, it isn't supposed to be presented as if it were teachings from an enlightened master.  Spirituality should not be reduced to the status of a brand.  The fact that Leo Gura is generally thought to be a cult leader outside of this community is a major issue - those people are not entirely off-base, they're referring to something which Leo himself is fully aware of.  Because he has a brand and a known public name, Leo's words carry more weight than they are worth, and that is a dangerous thing.

The thing is, we live in an age with youtube.

You can't possibly contain this knowledge, it will spread one way or another on social media.

[kinesin]

@Tim R "Leo can't be held responsible for anything his followers/listeners do, it's 100% up to them." is a cop out.  That may be legally true, but it isn't morally true.  In truth if Leo wants to be a responsible 'teacher' to so many people, his approach will need to change fundamentally.

He simply isn't careful enough, considering the number of people out there who mistake him for an enlightened holder of absolute truth.  He's far too glib, he gives short superficial answers to questions which deserve far more care.  Just a few days ago I saw him post this, which at the time I called out as irresponsible.  It's a good example of the issue -

[Bojan V]

@kinesin

1 minute ago, kinesin said:

@Tim R

Leo did not talk about physical death and did not advocate suicide. To many people misinterpret his words and then blame him for their own misinterpretations.

[SpiritualAwakening]

2 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

In Truth life&death is identical. Completely identical.

I think you are roughly mistaken on this view. Birth and Death are illusory, relative, opposites and only have a significant meaning within this time/space dimension to the extent one is attached to these concepts. Life in it's totality is not a part of the two and these concepts have no foothold in the imagination manifested by Consciousness.

[Ryan R]

@Muhammad Jawad

My condolences to you and all those who loved and were loved by Sunny.

You doing alright mentally and emotionally all things considered Muhammad? See the thing is when our "best and only friend" kills themselves sometimes we are next in line.

Are you having any suicidal thoughts? Do you have a support system, family, a therapist, or clergy you can turn to? If not, and even if so, maybe seek out a local suicide prevention phone number wherever in the world you are. If you have even a hint of seriously contemplating suicide after this crisis and tragedy of Sunny's, please get help and talk to someone immediately. It is not weakness to have such thoughts nor to seek help. It is courageous to be self honest and seek assistance in preserving life.

[kinesin]

@Bojan V The context of those replies was a thread started by @CBDinfused asking about Leo's thoughts on what happens after we die.  His comments were absolutely about physical death, don't even try to gaslight anyone by denying it.

[jimwell]

@SoonHei

He sent me a message once. I hadn't talked to him and didn't know him but he was compassionate and positive in his message. So, the good things you said about your brother must be true. 

I feel very sad about what happened to him. I wish he had chosen a different decision or place. Continue grieving, but from time to time, remember he is at least free from any form of suffering now and can't be harmed in any way. And that the best thing you can do is to finally overcome the grief. That is probably what he wants for you and the rest of his family.

 

To Leo and forum members here:

Making crazy claims but can't back it up with actions have already done much harm. If you had walked more and talked less, you would have been more careful in your talks. You would have changed your claims from "Life and Death are imaginary. Don;t worry about it. Look at me, I don't". "You are God and Only you exist, your family and friends don't. SO don't worry about it. Look at me, I don't."     to     "Life and Death are real. And so is pain. So be careful. But when you get to a point where your consciousness gets so elevated, you see Life, Death, Family, and Friends as imaginary, still be careful. Because imagination is also real."

Most humans are easily persuaded by "authority" figures. So, they tend to believe things, no matter how outlandish and absurd they are. My speculation is Sunny believed he could finally awaken from the "imaginary dream" of life after jumping from the bridge. It was a dogmatic belief, no skepticism and no experience of "awakening" or "God-realization". I also speculate there have been many followers of Leo (vulnerable ones) who have been harmed directly or indirectly via his teachings. But we never heard of them because nobody reported.

[SpiritualAwakening]

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

Some information should not be given out like Leo is doing it and also in the way he is doing it.

I completely agree. The one who is yet to See will still be lived by the mind and all of it's silly thoughts and notions, just take a look at religion. IMO some information should be only permitted to the ones that have had realizations up to a certain degree.

[soos_mite_ah]

This is really tragic. I'm so sorry for your loss. My heart goes out to Soonhei's friends and family 

 

[Bojan V]

@kinesin Please don't gaslight me with these statement of yours. I was just expresing my opinions. And i will continue to do that.

[soos_mite_ah]

2 minutes ago, kinesin said:

@Tim R "Leo can't be held responsible for anything his followers/listeners do, it's 100% up to them." is a cop out.  That may be legally true, but it isn't morally true.  In truth if Leo wants to be a responsible 'teacher' to so many people, his approach will need to change fundamentally.

He simply isn't careful enough, considering the number of people out there who mistake him for an enlightened holder of absolute truth.  He's far too glib, he gives short superficial answers to questions which deserve far more care.  Just a few days ago I saw him post this, which at the time I called out as irresponsible.  It's a good example of the issue -

53 minutes ago, kinesin said:

Here's the issue -

There is a reason why responsible spiritual teachers purposefully withhold advanced teachings from students until they've demonstrated clear evidence of having reached preceding levels necessary to understand them.  There is a reason why a responsible spiritual teacher has a close, in-person relationship with their students.

Leo is not a responsible teacher.  Leo is simply a guy like any of us, a regular person who is trying to navigate his way along the spiritual path.  Why do we fall into the trap of believing that Leo is anything more than this?  Because Leo has turned his personal spiritual journey into a brand, in order to make money.  This public image, the youtube channel with many subscribers, the forum, all of it creates a public perception of 'Leo Gura' which is much larger and more significant than the man himself.

The fact is, many of us here have long seen the warning signs of these dangers.  Not only the most tragic examples such as Connor and Soonhei, but also the countless smaller examples we see nearly every day where a person comes to the forum experiencing mental distress only to be told by Leo, Nahm or others that their feelings and situation are nothing more than a dream.  I find myself pointing out regularly that it is not helpful to simply state advanced teachings as if they are facts, without even acknowledging the mindset of the listener.

Something needs to change.  A personal spiritual journey isn't supposed to be public like this, it isn't supposed to be presented as if it were teachings from an enlightened master.  Spirituality should not be reduced to the status of a brand.  The fact that Leo Gura is generally thought to be a cult leader outside of this community is a major issue - those people are not entirely off-base, they're referring to something which Leo himself is fully aware of.  Because he has a brand and a known public name, Leo's words carry more weight than they are worth, and that is a dangerous thing.

I agree with much of this. There is a need for more responsibility and more disclaimers when it comes to more advanced teachings because they can VERY EASILY be misconstrued into very harmful ways. Most people aren't ready for advanced teachings and that isn't something that makes that person bad or less conscious. It just means you need to focus on the foundation first because without it, things can get very dark. 

I have had my own experiences with taking in too much advanced material too soon and having negative repercussions in my mental health. I had to step back and make the decision to not take in advanced material until much later and that has benefited me greatly. Also, sometimes spiritual teachings such as everything is a dream or just meditate on it to transcend the issue entirely can be gaslighting when you are going through difficult emotions. Because often times people in those situations need support instead of being told something along the lines of *your issues are all a result of your ego contemplate on that.* Whether or not that is true isn't as important as if this is going to help the person or hurt the person because that can have a huge impact on whether or not they even get to a higher level of consciousness. 

I also think that while it can be really good that this forum in general wants to reach the highest truths, I think we need to also see the merits of more basic personal development and not dismiss that as illusions. I made a thread on this forum a couple months back and I think it depicts the importance of being more responsible with the teachings on here (especially in the 2nd page): 

 

[Salvijus]

God be with you.

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, Scholar said:

Right, but you also say that other sentient beings don't exist and are only a figment of your imagination. So what is it? Are there sentient beings that are unconscious and get fucked up by his actions or are there not? I thought it was all a dream that you are imagining?

See how you will squirm and wiggle so that you can uphold your moral beliefs? You claim that morality is delusional, and then you go about preaching like a catholic priest how things are fucked up. But how can things be fucked up if everything is Goodness? Maybe it's you who has to see the Goodness here, and you are just projecting. None of this makes sense, this is why these things happen.

Relative/absolute conflation.

[Someone here]

This is really bad news.  So sorry to hear about your loss @SoonHei

 

As a tangent...i don't think anyone in this forum including Leo is to be held responsible for his suicide. Obviously no one here supports or encourages suicide. He was an adult and  responsible for his behavior. 

[kinesin]

6 minutes ago, soos_mite_ah said:

I made a thread on this forum a couple months back and I think it depicts the importance of being more responsible with the teachings on here (especially in the 2nd page):

Yeah, that thread is indeed quite a good example of it.  I found one of his comments in there to be a particularly egregious demonstration of his lack of insight.  Truly, Leo is living in a dream world and needs to wake up and realise he's speaking to actual, living people when he gives such poorly thought out teachings.

[Bojan V]

@soos_mite_ah The advanced spiritual teachings are out there if we want it or not. I've read Sri Aurobindo's teachings and also A Course in Miracles, which are really "advanced" imo. So what should we do? Ban the books and YouTube channels about advanced teachings? Certainly not. I don't see any solution to that other then to say to people they shouldn't believe any of it blindly,but to experience this by themselves.

[Tim R]

21 minutes ago, kinesin said:

"Leo can't be held responsible for anything his followers/listeners do, it's 100% up to them." is a cop out. 

@kinesin No, it most certainly isn't. 

Leo can only be held responsible for what he says, not for what his followers do.

He is not an authority. He is just some random dude, who, for all you know, could be utterly deluded and insane. It's always oneself who declares someone else to be an authority. 

There is no one to blame here.