Soonhei (Member of this community) killed himself to experience Conscious Death. :-(

[Scholar]

See, Leo can deal with his ideology because he is an exceptionally cautious person. Someone like Connor will react completely different to the same ideas and experiences. He won't be as cautious. A solid teaching would take this into account. You can't just assume that everyone will deal with all of this like you do because you think you are being reasonable.

That's not how any of this works. This is why talking to a camera is so dangerous. You don't get the feedback, you don't see how people react to what you say. You don't see the consequences.

 

You are doing an experiment and are completely blind to what is even going on. You assume that you are being wise, but you are unwilling to even test yourself. That is the opposite of wisdom.

[SQAAD]

@Leo Gura

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

 

What's important to underscore is that spirituality and enlightenment has nothing to do with physically harming the body. I've said that in the past and I will stress it more in the future. A few weeks ago I started to add larger disclaimers to my videos stressing the point that enlightenment has nothing to do with harming of the body. You can find the new, larger, clearer disclaimers under my recent videos on YT.

Life is a dream and a game, but if you jump off a bridge, this dream will end and you will probably regret it.

Not only should you not harm your physical body, you should take good care of it, being extra responsible with your health. A spiritual person must treat their health with more care than the average person.

In your video ('Dangers of Spiritual Work') you have talked about that if someone will go All the way with spirituality then at the end he will have to surrender his entire life. This sounds like suicide.

Also i don't think someone who commits suicide , regrets it.

[SpiritualAwakening]

1 hour ago, SoonHei said:

@Leo Gura Hi Leo! This is SoonHei's sister using his account trying to find out why he took the step that he did. I can confirm that he did in fact die on May 3rd by jumping off of a bridge.

His message to his wife was: "Oh I was never ending it. I was just continuing it. I just wanted to jump. Love you all. See you soon."

Similar message to what he sent to the person who started this thread (first post).

Now most important, Sunny asked NAHM very directly before committing this act. I really wish NAHM had guided him better. Sunny could not have been clearer. I will attach screenshots of their conversation in my next post.

If someone can tell us what he was trying to do, please do.

We cannot explain to you the shock of his death. We cannot wrap our heads around why he would do this. Sunny was someone who has literally saved others from depression and suicide. We keep hearing stories from people that he helped in their darkest hour. I can tell you for a fact that he did not suffer from any mental illness or depression. Sunny was SO SO full of life.

He has left behind a 3 month old and a 20 month old. It is hard to even look at his 27-yr-old wife who was barely out of the post-partum phase with her baby. I see our whole family going into depression... Sunny was a very central part of our family. The most kind-hearted soul. An amazing son, a wonderful husband, the most supportive brother, and above all, a one-in-a-million father.

I feel like our whole family will go into depression...

My condolences to you and your family sister..

Also this might not be something you like to hear or accept, but there was nothing @Nahm could have done or said to have prevented @SoonHei's decision to act upon his desire for 'conscious death'. In the end @SoonHei is as much Self-Realized as @Nahm is, both not giving authority to anyone and just communicating for means of insight.

Nevertheless I understand the pain and grief you're going through right now and how much you would have loved for any of us to try and save him.. <3

Edited May 19, 2021 by SpiritualAwakening

[Joel3102]

13 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Right, but you also say that other sentient beings don't exist and are only a figment of your imagination. So what is it? Are there sentient beings that are unconscious and get fucked up by his actions or are there not? I thought it was all a dream that you are imagining?

 

You’re right. You can’t say that everything is imaginary and other beings don’t exist they’re all imagined, then tell us not to go out and torture people for a living. You can’t have it both ways. By this logic, there’s no less reason to massacre people for the sake of it than there is to massacre people in a GTA5 video game. They’re both unreal

[SoonHei]

@Sleyker I messaged NAHM about this just a couple of days after his death and made him aware and asked him what the heck sunny was trying to do. Last night, the originator of this particular thread got in touch with someone from our family on FB and that is when we checked what discussions SoonHei was having with him and came back on this forum again. Today I noticed a notification that a thread has mentioned SoonHei.

Edited May 20, 2021 by SoonHei

[Roy]

That's so sad. I hope his family can get some closure. They deserve it.

This is why you ultimately can't trust anybody for these big picture life questions and understandings. Yes you listen to different teachers, read books, and explore different concepts. But whatever conclusions you come to have to be completely authentic and independent, and they usually take a lifetime to develop. Time breeds humility and understanding.

If you think you've somehow got the answers to life (and death) by listening to a 30 something year old talking head on YouTube, you've completely lost the plot................

 

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, Joel3102 said:

You’re right. You can’t say that everything is imaginary and other beings don’t exist they’re all imagined, then tell us not to go out and torture people for a living. You can’t have it both ways. By this logic, there’s no less reason to massacre people for the sake of it than there is to massacre people in a GTA5 video game. They’re both unreal

Yes, but don't tell this anyone. But also, tell this everyone because I like to be edgy and confront everyone with the Truth.

[SgtPepper]

RIP. 

[blackchair]

1 minute ago, Roy said:

 

If you think you've somehow got the answers to life (and death) by listening to a 30 something year old talking head on YouTube, you've completely lost the plot................

 

this......

[RMQualtrough]

6 minutes ago, Scholar said:

You don't have to lie about anything. The point is that you can't market this to the masses and be edgily truthful because you think bruteforcing ideology into the brains of clueless people will help them.

It's not at all insane to leap to your death if you are truly convinced of what Leo is saying. It makes 100% sense to be certain when Leo claims you can only trust your experience. I mean what do you think this leads to if you tell this to a person?

Yes, people don't necessarily belief in objective morals. But they do believe in their own mortality, and that other beings exist, and that reality contains suffering, and most importantly they lack conviction that all of reality is Perfection. But sure, just ignore this.

If you cannot be wise, reality will make you wise through suffering.

It is insane to be 100% certain in the idea, since it is a theory.

I happen to think it's correct and I absolutely do not believe in objective morals or meaning. I am content with subjective ones. But I wouldn't kill myself for the main reason that this is literally a theory. It is not proven and it actually never COULD be for various reasons. I also wouldn't jump to my death because of many other things... But first and foremost it is clearly just a theory. A belief.

If you have to sort of pull your punches then you are not really communicating what you think and might as well say nothing at all. Talk would have to be confined to secret covens or something where a few gather.

I think in nonduality people make too big of a deal about there being no such things as X or Y or Z. There is objective reality and subjective reality.

Leo replied to me recently describing the subjective feeling on a deep trip. That subjective feeling is different from what he would say is the objective truth. So you can see there is two sides of the coin. There is the subjective reality of being "myself" and the objective one of "being God".

This is why I like Kashmir Shaivism. Identical idea but presents subjective things as real. Or Dzogchen.

[SoonHei]

@ivankiss Yes. Thanks for saying this. It is hard for me to understand why and how a smart guy like SoonHei got so lost in these mental ideas and really understood this life to be a "Dream" that he could wake up out of. Imagine someone who is perhaps not "as smart" for the lack of a better word. If they start taking this stuff literally, they can easily take steps like this.

PLEASE PLEASE clarify this for everyone you talk to. Disclaimers are good but get ignored. Please make it a point to clarify within your conversations that this life is not a dream that you can just end it consciously by hurting your body in any way. You guys know how to say it best...

We have a long life ahead of us living without SoonHei... I just don't want this to happen to anyone else. Please!

 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by SoonHei

[Scholar]

3 minutes ago, Roy said:

If you think you've somehow got the answers to life (and death) by listening to a 30 something year old talking head on YouTube, you've completely lost the plot................

This is unbelievably irresponsible and gaslighting. You guys should have compassions for your brothers and sisters, not blame them because they lost their plot. But of course you don't believe in morality, so who cares if you are being considerate to others.

 

1 minute ago, RMQualtrough said:

It is insane to be 100% certain in the idea, since it is a theory.

Oh yes, the backtracking. One day you say this is the Absolute Truth, and then when someone discovers the Absolute Truth for themself and kills themselves, it's all just a theory and you should have never been certain.

How can people who claim to do consciousness work be so clueless to what they are doing? You are showing zero compassion, zero responsiblity.

[Dodo]

58 minutes ago, Scholar said:

It should not be surprising, the philosophy Leo is using to describe spirituality is even more radical than this. Connor is a good example of this too. If you say everything is Good and Love, it is simply illogical to claim that it is better to do X.

This philosophy claims to recognize that torture and rape is Perfection. Not just suicide.

 

This is another reason why you ought to be careful about how you construct this philosophy. See, if people truly believe what you say, the might blow themselves up together with others for Jihad.

And then what do you do as a teacher? You say "No no, this is bad PR, this is wrong! When I said everything is Good and Perfect, I actually meant you should behave morally because it's stupid to behave immorally!". Are you sure?

See, because you are contradicting yourself, if someone truly believes what you say with actual conviction, he will laugh at you, as Connor does at Leo when he tries to tell him what he is doing is "bad". Clearly in one moment you say it's bad and in the other you say it's Perfection. You tell him whatever fits your agenda. And he will clearly see this if he truly and fully is convinced that reality is perfection, or that it is a dream, or anything else.

 

See, if reality is a dream, every excuse for why you should not torture someone goes out the window. You can pretend like this is not the case, but it is.

Spot on. I was tackling this exact issue on another thread earlier about Leo being imagined by us. Solipsism, believing only your experience is real and others are NPC characters/ dream characters would literally allow for you to do anything and call it good.

We need to spot things like these on the forum and challenge such views no matter if Leo has said something similar. 

It seems SoonHei wanted to change his dream, but in doing so he would bring so much pain on his family.. He has babies omg... Did he really consider them dream characters without their own Consciousness and didn't postpone his journey... Seems like he put his faith in the wrong thing.

Here's what SoonHei wrote to me once when I inquired about his avatar as it seemed like it had deep meaning to me - and it did.

On 20/10/2020 at 5:51 AM, SoonHei said:

Sure thing. It's pointing back home. It's the answer for the one looking to find his true self OUT THERE in the world. The finger is a gentle reminder that it is you, the looker, that you seek. It is a mirror back to you. The entire world is a mirror image of you. You are ONE with the world. You are the world. It is as they say, your party. You are the king of your own life/dream. 

So, Live from that. Live from your true position, which is not of this world, it is its source. You smile, the world smiles. The mirror never smiles first.

 

It's a finger pointing back at you.

You are the looker, looking thru. The eyes are the instrument just as radio is the instrument which catches and gives sound. The finger points beyond all that action to the one who sees and hears them. 

You cannot find yourself in the world. You are like a reader, reading a book. A reader can go on reading but never find himself in the book. As a reader, he is outside of the book. The reader is the sought. Likewise, as the looker, you're outside, looking in. 

 

Only you can confirm it for you. You can share it, sure, but ultimately only you can confirm it. When you share with those who also know, that's divine. But prior to the sharing, only you can know.

It is this exact solipsistic view, and it ended badly, from this dimension's point of view, I guess. I do believe there is an "other side" however and he might be totally OK right now. Can't confirm though.. 

@SoonHei I am tagging you on this one so you could read your brother's explanation to me, maybe you will understand what he believed in/investigated. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Dodo

[4201]

5 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Yes, but don't tell this anyone. But also, tell this everyone because I like to be edgy and confront everyone with the Truth.

So Leo's edginess is the big evil here? Talk about projection

Even if Leo stopped teaching spirituality under your suggestion, someone else would. In a system composed of 7 biliion humans some will organically become spiritual teachers and some will unfortunately get it wrong.

[Roy]

2 minutes ago, Scholar said:

This is unbelievably irresponsible and gaslighting. You guys should have compassions for your brothers and sisters, not blame them because they lost their plot. But of course you don't believe in morality, so who cares if you are being considerate to others.

Take a second to cool off and read what I wrote again, if there is any blame you'll see where it lies.

[Scholar]

3 minutes ago, 4201 said:

So Leo's edginess is the big evil here? Talk about projection

Even if Leo stopped teaching spirituality under your suggestion, someone else would. In a system composed of 7 biliion humans some will organically become spiritual teachers and some will unfortunately get it wrong.

It's Leo's lack of wisdom and social isolation. If he wants to teach he should get in person experience and get the feedback he clearly needs to see.

Leo has been completely dogmatic about the way he teaches since years now, all under the umbrella of it being his style and him wanting to not compromise the "Truth".

 

I never said Leo should stop teaching spirituality, your response here is childlike. I am saying he should adjust his teachings and be a responsible human being.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Scholar

[RMQualtrough]

1 minute ago, Scholar said:

This is unbelievably irresponsible and gaslighting. You guys should have compassions for your brothers and sisters, not blame them because they lost their plot. But of course you don't believe in morality, so who cares if you are being considerate to others.

 

Oh yes, the backtracking. One day you say this is the Absolute Truth, and then when someone discovers the Absolute Truth for themself and kills themselves, it's all just a theory and you should have never been certain.

How can people who claim to do consciousness work be so clueless to what they are doing? You are showing zero compassion, zero responsiblity.

You will find I personally backtrack nowhere. I think Idealism is the most logical guess. I would never say it is proven, it is really crazy to take a theory as absolute fact.

It is impossible to prove Idealism for the same reason Materialism is unproveable.

If it was proveable that the idea was right, there would be no debates at all. All scientists would agree with it and it would just be accepted by everyone.

In either case I also do not think objective truth matters much... Just ask someone who hammers that subjective experience is irrelevant to go stick their hand in a hornet's nest. After all pain isn't real right?! They won't. Why? Because it fkn hurts! But then for some reason, when it comes to things other than physical pain, everyone suddenly dismisses subjective experience.

[LfcCharlie4]

I'm so sorry to hear this. RIP <3 

 

[WaveInTheOcean]

1 hour ago, SoonHei said:

@Leo Gura Hi Leo! This is SoonHei's sister using his account trying to find out why he took the step that he did. I can confirm that he did in fact die on May 3rd by jumping off of a bridge.

His message to his wife was: "Oh I was never ending it. I was just continuing it. I just wanted to jump. Love you all. See you soon."

Similar message to what he sent to the person who started this thread (first post).

Now most important, Sunny asked NAHM very directly before committing this act. I really wish NAHM had guided him better. Sunny could not have been clearer. I will attach screenshots of their conversation in my next post.

If someone can tell us what he was trying to do, please do.

We cannot explain to you the shock of his death. We cannot wrap our heads around why he would do this. Sunny was someone who has literally saved others from depression and suicide. We keep hearing stories from people that he helped in their darkest hour. I can tell you for a fact that he did not suffer from any mental illness or depression. Sunny was SO SO full of life.

He has left behind a 3 month old and a 20 month old. It is hard to even look at his 27-yr-old wife who was barely out of the post-partum phase with her baby. I see our whole family going into depression... Sunny was a very central part of our family. The most kind-hearted soul. An amazing son, a wonderful husband, the most supportive brother, and above all, a one-in-a-million father.

I feel like our whole family will go into depression...

I'm moved to tears to read this. 

I cannot offer any help, other than giving you this metaphor about hell (depression) and heaven (enlightenment):

When you knock a bouncy ball very hard down into the hard ground, what happens to it?....

All my Love and prayers and thoughts to you and your family. I'm deeply moved :'(

[SoonHei]

I shared's SoonHei's "Direct" questions to NAHM before from Sunday May 2nd. Here is his discussion from Saturday, May 1st which was rather "indirect". I personally don't understand what is being said here but may be some of you can make sense out of it. Sharing just so you know that when someone is asking questions like this, they have taken things too literally and need to be altered or stopped.

Edited May 20, 2021 by SoonHei