In what way is God Realization beyond Nonduality ?

[Wilhelm44]

In Leo's latest video he says God realization is much deeper than nonduality. Leo, I watched the whole video, thank you, but please can you or someone else that knows, say a bit more about the difference between realizing God and fully realizing nonduality. Are people like Adyashanti or Spira not God realized ? 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Wilhelm44

[Nahm]

@Wilhelm44

Nonduality means not two. The term points without defining. When comparing that which already seems to be defined, it is already missed there are, not two. There is not someone who knows this, nor someone to fully realize nonduality. ‘People self realized’, would be two. This has not only been covered extensively on this forum, it is literally the only apparent content of it.

[Wilhelm44]

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

@Wilhelm44

Nonduality means not two. The term points without defining. When comparing that which already seems to be defined, it is already missed there are, not two. There is not someone who knows this, nor someone to fully realize nonduality. ‘People self realized’, would be two. This has not only been covered extensively on this forum, it is literally the only apparent content of it.

I hear you, but my question is more about what Leo says in his latest video: ie that God Realization is something deeper than nonduality. I'm not doubting the oneness of reality. I'm more curious as to why he said God realization is something beyond or deeper than nonduality/oneness.

[vladorion]

There are 2 types of non-duality.

1 - Consciousness and its appearances are not two (there is no ego at this point). This consciousness is still separate from its Essence/God, by believing that it IS God/Absolute/Has its own existence.

2 - Consciousness is let go of and only God remains.

Usually, when people use the term non-duality, they talk about the first type.

True non-duality IS God realization.

[Inliytened1]

@Wilhelm44 I think he was talking about neo-advaita in which awakening is the realization of no self and that's it.  Duality was the self and it is an illusion.   While all that is true that's where it ends for them.   There is no God realization.  Because there is no one to realize God.   It's just - there is no self.  But if you get stuck in thinking that the realization of no self is all there is you can never reach the highest realizations and that's where you will be.  I also think in many cases  that these realizations of no self are just conceptual and not actual which is not true spirituality.  True spirituality is about Actuality.  It is mystical, but this can be dismissed too because there is no one to experience anything 

[The0Self]

13 minutes ago, vladorion said:

There are 2 types of non-duality.

1 - Consciousness and its appearances are not two (there is no ego at this point). This consciousness is still separate from its Essence/God, by believing that it IS God/Absolute/Has its own existence.

2 - Consciousness is let go of and only God remains.

Usually, when people use the term non-duality, they talk about the first type.

True non-duality IS God realization.

Not really...

 

God-Realization is more complicated.

 

Nonduality is simple: all there is, is all there is. There's no one and nothing happening.

Nothing is everything. This empty appearance is neither real nor unreal. Relative is absolute.

 

Of course by nonduality I do not mean in any way shape or form Neo Advaita, which is not ultimate nonduality.

Edited May 19, 2021 by The0Self

[Wilhelm44]

@Inliytened1  Thank you. And then, if I understand correctly, God realization is really taking it all the way, ie realizing that as God I have literally imagined the whole universe and everything in it.  

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, Wilhelm44 said:

@Inliytened1  Thank you. And then, if I understand correctly, God realization is really taking it all the way, ie realizing that as God I have literally imagined the whole universe and everything in it.  

Yes but first you have to realize that you are God.

 

[RMQualtrough]

4 hours ago, vladorion said:

There are 2 types of non-duality.

1 - Consciousness and its appearances are not two (there is no ego at this point). This consciousness is still separate from its Essence/God, by believing that it IS God/Absolute/Has its own existence.

2 - Consciousness is let go of and only God remains.

Usually, when people use the term non-duality, they talk about the first type.

True non-duality IS God realization.

Don't get it. So God is not "Brahman"? It is not awareness without attribute?

[vladorion]

25 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

Don't get it. So God is not "Brahman"? It is not awareness without attribute?

No. Awareness is one of its primary aspects.

Absolutizing one of the primary aspects is how individual consciousness avoids realizing God, because it still keeps its identity as "the one who is deciding what the Absolute reality is", which places it even above the Absolute.

[RMQualtrough]

25 minutes ago, vladorion said:

No. Awareness is one of its primary aspects.

Absolutizing one of the primary aspects is how individual consciousness avoids realizing God, because it still keeps its identity as "the one who is deciding what the Absolute reality is", which places it even above the Absolute.

How would you best describe what it is, if not "Brahman" etc?

[The0Self]

1 hour ago, RMQualtrough said:

How would you best describe what it is, if not "Brahman" etc?

What is. Everything. Absolute has no real perspective.

[Wilhelm44]

11 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Yes but first you have to realize that you are God.

 

Is becoming aware through meditation and contemplation of how I am imagining/creating everything (including science, birth, death, family etc) not the best way of going about realizing that I am God ?  (Apart from psychedelics of course.) 

[Wilhelm44]

Feels like Frank Yang just rocked this forum in the most beautiful way today 

[RendHeaven]

7 hours ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Is becoming aware through meditation and contemplation of how I am imagining/creating everything (including science, birth, death, family etc) not the best way of going about realizing that I am God ?  (Apart from psychedelics of course.) 

Psychedelics are almost mandatory for full God-Realization, unless you were born exceptionally spiritually gifted, or you spend literally 24/7 practicing active industrial-grade spirituality for decades.

As an average person, you simply will not get anywhere remotely near full God-Realization doing a little bit of "awareness meditation/contemplation" here and there. Even if you do hours daily for years, that just won't cut it. As it should be. This is an INFINITELY INTELLIGENT Illusion, after all

Just let that sink in.

Obviously, it's not as easy as simply taking a psychedelic either. Tons of people gobble psychs to get fucked up, and they ain't God-Realized. So you need to lay the proper groundwork by still practicing sober spirituality, but at some point you will also have to take the psychedelic.

It's a package deal, basically. One without the other ain't it.

[Inliytened1]

8 hours ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Is becoming aware through meditation and contemplation of how I am imagining/creating everything (including science, birth, death, family etc) not the best way of going about realizing that I am God ?  (Apart from psychedelics of course.) 

Meditation and contemplation / self inquiry can work.  First one must drop the self or realize the self is imaginary.  Don't get  ahead of yourself.  There a lot of degrees and awakenings to this.  It is too much to become conscious of everything all at once.   What you are describing is some of the most advanced aspects that come much much later.

Also establish a ground by building a conceptual framework.  Listen to Leo's metaphysical and epistemological videos.   This is serious business so be aware of what you are getting into.

Then after - if you are still not making headway and are getting into years then you can leverage psychedelics in a responsible way.   And be careful not to turn this into an egoic desire.  It has to be an authentic desire for Truth for Truths sake.  Stay curious.

[Wilhelm44]

Thank you 

[Being Frank Yang]

On 5/19/2021 at 4:56 PM, Wilhelm44 said:

In Leo's latest video he says God realization is much deeper than nonduality. Leo, I watched the whole video, thank you, but please can you or someone else that knows, say a bit more about the difference between realizing God and fully realizing nonduality. Are people like Adyashanti or Spira not God realized ? 

HEY guys,

I do agree with Leo that non-duality is just one mode of existence. One lens of perception. This is why I distinguish between non-duality, non-locality and uni-locality.  You could say that those are all different stages of non-duality, but there are on the relative level degrees of non-duality.

Here are some quotes from AH ALmaas's website that most resonate to my current mode of development, and 

might point out some of those difference

(Beyond non duality) All Forms Exist Within One Another

"The Freedom Vehicle makes it possible to have these types of unity experiences – we call them experiences of unilocal unity, or unilocality – with another person, a group, or the whole universe. Unilocality is the view of reality related to a nothingness that has no sense of space, extension or distance. The experience of being in union in this nondimensional nothingness is unilocal unity. It can arise as the experience of two or more individuals sharing the same location often experienced as being inside each other. Unilocality is neither dual nor nondual. We are not talking here about an ocean of consciousness that unites all forms as they arise within it – the nonduality of the boundless dimensions; nor is it dual, when individual forms are separate and relating spatially. In unilocality, all forms exist within one another.

As we become comfortable exercising the view of totality, we can consider all kinds of other questions from its perspective. One of the central issues that we deal with in this book is the relationship between duality and nonduality. Discerning the implications inherent in the nondual view opens up whole new possibilities of experience. We will spend some time exploring these new frontiers by examining the nature of time and space, the role of the particular individual, the paradox of nondoing, and the various mysteries of emptiness—all from the perspective of totality. What is revealed as we do this is that reality is far more indeterminate, far more mysterious than anything we can conceive of. No single view—whether dual, nondual, unilocal, or something else entirely—can capture the dynamism of reality. Freedom is the freedom of reality to reveal its dynamism, to express itself as form, as formlessness, as both, or as neither. No single feature and no combination of features can exhaust the potential of reality. It is a mystery without end. Reality is always revealing itself by knowing itself; and knowing reality and living it becomes the fulfillment of our life. The purity of reality expresses itself to us, through us, and as us, all at once. Our life becomes the life of true nature—the purity at the heart of reality—living consciously and expressing itself as us"

 

[Being Frank Yang]

When you become Reality, the manifestation of _____ is endlessly creative.

"As individuals, we can have the view of totality only if we have some realization of Total Being, because the view of totality is not simply a mental view but the very openness at the heart of Total Being. We cannot hold or embody the view of totality if our realization is limited to nondual truth, or to unilocal unity, or of course if we have no realization at all. Because Total Being is free to manifest any view, whichever face it presents is what we typically then call reality. We don’t usually know this kind of freedom, we don’t even ordinarily expect it, because most of us are caught in a particular view, and we believe that is the only way reality can be. We mostly live within the dualistic view, until we recognize or realize the true nature of reality. Because of this, for most of us the realizations that tend to happen most readily are within the nondual view; sometimes we might even experience realization within the unilocal view, but rarely do we encounter the view of totality".

The first and second turnings, which culminate in the enlightenment of nonduality, are consistent but incomplete insofar as they do not include, for instance, unilocal unity or the realization of not being anything. As I discussed in Runaway Realization, there are many subtle concepts—of self, of time, of space, of causation, of emptiness—that persist in the classical enlightenment of unity or nonduality, and these preclude other experiences of reality. The view of totality, in the fourth turning, begins to address this incompleteness by including all possible views of reality".

"The meaning of Total Being expands as our experience of true nature reveals more and more of itself. Total Being can shift from being the totality of the individual to the total being of the whole universe to the mysterious total being beyond time and space. True nature allows us to perceive everything in a new light. We recognize that where we are in the moment is not other than anything else. Everything else is within us, and not only everything else but everything else at all other times and places. When we are not experiencing ourselves this way, then we are experiencing ourselves only as the individual and not the unilocal nature of the individual. It’s true that as an individual, we are in time and space. But we are also the true nature of the individual that interpenetrates all time and all space, bringing everything in time and space to one singular point".

[Gili Trawangan]

@Being Frank Yang Very cool.