Questions About God-Realization & Psychedelics

[Flyboy]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That can be said for any tool or technique. No technique is fool proof.

You have no idea where I would be without psychedelics. You take all the growth I got from psychedelics and just ignore it as if it didn't happen.

How seriously do you consider the possibility that they have created a blind spot for you, though?  I have heard you say "I was put on this earth to do psychedelics", and other such things.  Your latest video actually demonstrated that you do not really understand what a cessation is (per Ingram and others, there is NO conscious experience during a cessation.  Consciousness stops completely, like a frame taken out of a movie reel.  As you come back you witness reality restarting before your eyes.  If there was ANY conscious experience during the cessation it was not a cessation).   That is widely considered to be only the first step towards enlightenment (stream entry), followed by wildly more powerful experiences and insights farther down the path.

While I don't discredit the depth you are achieving in "understanding" reality with psychedelics, have you considered that maybe you are going very far on an axis of awakening that isn't IT, per se?  For example, multiple respected teachers describe direct experience with the Source (ie. Nothingness) as a stage beyond God-realization, and that even this is not "it", as it is still an extremely subtle identifying.  You talk about it not being "ego", but do you consider that EGO could ultimately refer to ANY kind of identification, even with being God, or with understanding itself?  Ultimately "understanding" is the final thing to let go of, resulting in a complete return to THIS, NOW.

Are you able to let go of understanding?  Are you able to let go of God?  Could the paradox be that until you do let these things go, you can go no farther?

[RMQualtrough]

Terrence McKenna gave regular DMT to a Tibetan monk, who said after the experience that it is not possible to go further into the "Bardo" and come back. Toad seems infinitely further than n,n-DMT from what I have read. I am not brave enough to use such a thing.

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

How seriously do you consider the possibility that they have created a blind spot for you, though?

They have removed many blindspots.

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I have heard you say "I was put on this earth to do psychedelics", and other such things.

And? You got a problem with that?

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Your latest video actually demonstrated that you do not really understand what a cessation is (per Ingram and others, there is NO conscious experience during a cessation.  Consciousness stops completely, like a frame taken out of a movie reel.  As you come back you witness reality restarting before your eyes.  If there was ANY conscious experience during the cessation it was not a cessation). 

I am well aware of how cessation is described by Ingram and others.

My counter-point is: Ingram is not God-realized. He is not conscious of what God is, despite all his cessations.

And that is exactly why I stress God-realization instead of cessation or any other Buddhist thing.

There is no Ingram, there is no Buddha, there is no cessation. You're imaging all that shit right now to keep yourself inside the dream.

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That is widely considered to be only the first step towards enlightenment (stream entry), followed by wildly more powerful experiences and insights farther down the path.

Yeah, well, all that is something you (God) are imagining to keep yourself asleep. This is your dream.

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While I don't discredit the depth you are achieving in "understanding" reality with psychedelics, have you considered that maybe you are going very far on an axis of awakening that isn't IT, per se?

I have considered it a lot, and concluded that God-realization is what is most important for you to realize. Which is why I teach it.

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For example, multiple respected teachers describe direct experience with the Source (ie. Nothingness) as a stage beyond God-realization, and that even this is not "it", as it is still an extremely subtle identifying. 

I would counter that these respected teachers are just an illusion you imagined to keep yourself asleep.

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You talk about it not being "ego", but do you consider that EGO could ultimately refer to ANY kind of identification, even with being God, or with understanding itself?  Ultimately "understanding" is the final thing to let go of, resulting in a complete return to THIS, NOW.

You are God. End of story. Anything you tell me otherwise is not serious to me.

You will only appreciate what I am saying when you realize you are God.

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Are you able to let go of understanding?  Are you able to let go of God?  Could the paradox be that until you do let these things go, you can go no farther?

You can't let go of God because God is what you are.

You simply haven't realized that you are God, or what God even means. You use that word but you don't understand what is means.

You are God playing a game of denying that you are God. And you play this game very well. But I know the game you play better than you, so no amount of your logic will trick me. I've seen through the game. The only issue here is that you have not.

[Flyboy]

@Leo Gura I really appreciate your reply.  Isn't imagining still a concept inside the dream?  Couldn't you disregard anything and promote anything by using this language?  Isn't presuming you are God when we are talking about realizing God begging the question?  What if the Truth about God was beyond even Absolute Infinity, as infinity is still a concept that exists within our limited reality (like rationality itself)?

To be clear, I agree with you, I just want the argument to be as strong and clean as possible, for my own understanding and that of others.  My objective in challenging you is NOT to argue but to clarify my own understanding.  I care about this deeply and see the truth in it, and am committed to this path with all my energy.  For me, psychedelics are not an option (brain receptor injury), so I must figure out how to get there the "hard" way.  Meditation seems to be the only road open to me, so I'm trying to understand it deeply.

[Salvijus]

21 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That can be said for any tool or technique. No technique is fool proof.

You have no idea where I would be without psychedelics. You take all the growth I got from psychedelics and just ignore it as if it didn't happen.

Haha, you got me

But honestly, I'm not ignoring anything I just can't see much positive  change in you in terms of embodiment and daily life. Maybe a video about your benefits from psychedelics would help.

To be honest, what I see in you is just a normal amount of growth somebody would get after doing 6-7years of consciousness work which is what you are at. I think you're still growing at the same pace like everyone else.

Your claims that psychedelics will shortcut dacades of consciousness work in a few years doesn't ring true to me. I can't see decades worth of growth in you. I think if you lost your memory of all the trips you had you'd be just an avarege angry person on a street maybe a bit better then avarage. But nothing special really. 

That's the difference with a real sage and someone who just had a temporary experience or an intelectual understanding. A sage woudnt lose his compassion and love and awareness even if his memory got all wiped out. The atmosphere around him would be charged and radiant with love. It shows that one man has gone somewhere existencially and another man is just jumping on a trampoline not getting anywhere really.

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About the "no technique can be fool proof" yes it is true but true spiritual teachers who engage in teaching others take lots of precaution to protect anyone from harming themselfs. If the process is dangerous they only do things with close supervision to ensure a students safety. They take their studends life very seriously as if it was there own. 

You on the other hand, very careless. You just inspire newbies to take psychedelics as if it's the highest, fastest way. And if somebody gets metally mad or gets his life ruined it's their own problem, lol. That's not how conscious beings would behave. There're also karmic consiquences from giving bad advice to people. Almost everything you say is just an opinion that you currently have and that is always changing as you grow. Dangerous game you're playing. Unless a person is able to take full responsibility of his advice, he should not do it. Giving advice left and right without understanding the subject fully in not what conscious beings do.

Okey, Love to you and good luck  ❤️

[RMQualtrough]

@Salvijus I have never heard anyone ever have anything like a toad trip naturally. There are a lot of people at those retreats with serious work already put in etc.

Regarding the average populace, I doubt many people could handle even acid on the slightly higher doses. Or DMT/Ayahuasca. In fact I have seen people sprint off naked on acid and get hospitalized.

But you know not everyone cares about not being an average person on the street. Wanting to understand what life is, is a thought even infants have. Wanting to have some self development is entirely different.

And you know what happens when all ego is gone? The Buddhist monk is EQUAL ENTIRELY to a junkie murderer. That was something that struck me on a DMT + LSD breakthrough. So at the point of death everyone is automatically fully "enlightened" and all 100% identical.

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Flyboy said:

@Leo Gura  Isn't imagining still a concept inside the dream? 

No

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Couldn't you disregard anything and promote anything by using this language?

The mind's capacity for denial is infinite. The key is to be conscious of what you're doing.

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Isn't presuming you are God when we are talking about realizing God begging the question?

No. God is a tautology. There is no possibility of you not being God.

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What if the Truth about God was beyond even Absolute Infinity, as infinity is still a concept that exists within our limited reality (like rationality itself)?

God-realization is not a concept.

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To be clear, I agree with you, I just want the argument to be as strong and clean as possible, for my own understanding and that of others.

God-realization is not a function of argument.

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My objective in challenging you is NOT to argue but to clarify my own understanding.  I care about this deeply and see the truth in it, and am committed to this path with all my energy.

Well, what you're missing is that Truth is a far deeper thing than language, logic, argument, or proof.

3 hours ago, Salvijus said:

But honestly, I'm not ignoring anything I just can't see much positive  change in you in terms of embodiment and daily life.

That is because you judge me by my outside behavior and also because you cannot know the counterfactual of how I would have been without them.

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To be honest, what I see in you is just a normal amount of growth somebody would get after doing 6-7years of consciousness work which is what you are at.

Hehehe... I have a deeper understanding of consciousness and reality than Zen teachers with 40 years of full-time meditation.

But you don't understand that.

You keep waiting for me to act spiritual for you, like some Eckhart Tolle. What you don't know though is how I act has nothing to do with what I have become conscious of. Again, these are human games you play. As far as playing the human spiritual game, I'm not so impressive -- but that's all you see and care about.

There is no way I could teach what I teach without all the psychedelics I've taken. Even with 40 years of practice I would not be able to teach at my current level.

[Salvijus]

Hi @RMQualtrough

Thank you for your comment. I hope you're well. I can't think of anything to reply to you right now, sorry.

Stay Blessed ❤️

@Leo Gura Touché...

[The Mystical Man]

@Leo Gura You seem to care more about understanding reality, that is, God, than being reality. Frankly, I don't think that understanding reality is that difficult. Being reality, however, is difficult. How you act does matter, how you act has to reflect what you have become conscious of; your humanity has to become an expression of the deepest truth. It's not about acting spiritual; that would be the opposite of embodiment. Embodiment, or the lack thereof, in each and every moment is what impacts other human beings the most, not understanding. Your understanding is impermanent. You will lose it. But embodied activity can have a more lasting impact. This is why I respect Adya and Doc so much; they have become what they have realized. When I had my second breakthrough on 1cP-LSD, I couldn't stop thinking of Adyashanti (primordial peace). I realized that he has become a pure manifestation of primordial peace. That's truly impressive. Now it sounds like I'm just infatuated with a teacher, but that's not at all what's happening here. I do respect those teachers, but what I revere is the vastness and immensity of being, the infinite field of potentiality. Adya and Doc are grounded, mature, and wise manifestations of that field. People who use psychedelics don't seem to be very grounded. They tend to get too wrapped up in seeking more and more depth. The same thing has happened to me. When I had my first breakthrough on 1P-LSD, I thought, "Oh my God, how deep does this go? I want to go as deep as possible." But, of course, it's infinite. Every wise teacher knows that it's infinitely infinite. So if there is no end to this, why try to go deeper and deeper? Isn't seeking more and more depth just another egoic pursuit? How is it different from seeking more and more money? One could say that seeking deeper and deeper experiences of infinity can be turned into the highest egoic pursuit. Now one could also say, "How is seeking more and more embodiment less egoic than seeking more and more depth?" Seeking more and more depth, that is, ego-transcendence, could be an avoidance of ego-dissolution. Embodiment comes with a different orientation. The orientation is to progressively surrender the self. And that's an orientation that very, very few people are interested in, for it seems to require a very advanced level of maturity. I like to use Jed's distinction between Human Childhood and Human Adulthood. I think psychedelics can assist you in growing into Human Adulthood. But enlightenment (abiding non-dual awareness) seems to be something much more radical, and I don't think psychedelics can help you with achieving that. They might actually help you to avoid it. I also don't understand why you keep saying that reality is complex. When I had my breakthrough experiences, I was astounded by the simplicity of truth. Now the relative world is very, very complex, of course. If you want to understand the relative world, I can understand why you'd say that reality is complex. But absolute reality is pristine; it's the simplest thing there is. 

"The truly great have come and gone, and what they left behind was the consequence of what they were and had become." - David R. Hawkins

[Phyllis Wagner]

Tl;Dr;

A: "But Leo.."

B: "No. I am God. If you disagree with me you are simply not conscious enough to grasp absolute truth, like me"

[Gabith]

Does karma exist ?

[Leo Gura]

@The Mystical Man You are making it into a false choice. You can do both.

What I stress is pure consciousness and understanding, because that's what matters most to me. Everything else is secondary.

You can be at peace and all that, but still not be fully conscious.

[Flyboy]

 @Leo Gura How do you get around the fact of the NOW being the only thing that exists?  Your own teachings have given me incredible illumination into how the mind works, especially when it comes to recognizing concepts vs present reality. 

This is inescapable when you talk about psychedelics--all psychedelic experiences are immediately relegated to past experience, which is merely a concept occurring in the NOW.  Thus, they become maps of the territory as soon as they end.  Wouldn't it be more accurate to say you have experienced God than to say you have realized God, because in the moment you are reading this, that is not your momentary experience?  (I would only define realization as something I experience right now, always)  I have heard you say that time doesn't matter when it comes to enlightenment, but I simply disagree.  The now is all there is, and if it isn't NOW, then it is just thoughts, concepts, and feelings occurring in your mental stream.

[RMQualtrough]

20 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

 The now is all there is, and if it isn't NOW, then it is just thoughts, concepts, and feelings occurring in your mental stream.

If the now is all there is, how could anything NOT be the now?

I think the flickbook is already written from start to end. Every page of it exists at once. Flicking the pages makes the character "animated", but the entire flickbook already exists all at once.

There's no objective past or future.

It's kind of BS word games because we have an experience that there is a passage of time. But you see that when harping on semantics it doesn't make sense to say anything isn't happening now.