Frank Yang's video response to Leo's video - about stage Turquoise

[Flyboy]

17 minutes ago, Being Frank Yang said:

Drop the center and every moment is Reality creating Itself.  "Infinite Intelligence", stuff you speak of is the manifestation of Form upon realization centerless-ness.  I think most of the misconception here is Leo talks more about the Form/manifestation aspect of Realization, which has levels and states and degrees (what the eye ball sees)  but I tend to focus on the Realization itself, which nothing can be said about. 

@Being Frank YangFrank, at some point would you mind doing a detailed video / blog on how you actually did the meditative practices that were so effective for you?  I'd love know what you mean when you say things like "Vipassanize the air, go from solid to liquid to gas, expand to infinity and collapse to nothing, drop the center", or more detail on what your day-day practice was like, obstacles you encountered, traps you fell into, etc.  Some of your language is difficult to interpret when it comes to the actual practice  Especially in the 3 years you spent prior to Stream Entry, what was that progress like?  I'm working very hard on the path of insight but it's challenging to know if I'm really doing it correctly or making real progress to my first cessation.  Thanks again for posting here and adding to the discussion, it's extremely valuable.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Flyboy

[Being Frank Yang]

7 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

@Being Frank YangFrank, at some point would you mind doing a detailed video / blog on how you actually did the meditative practices that were so effective for you?  I'd love know what you mean when you say things like "Vipassanize the air, go from solid to liquid to gas, expand to infinity and collapse to nothing, drop the center", or more detail on what your day-day practice was like, obstacles you encountered, traps you fell into, etc.  Some of your language is difficult to interpret when it comes to the actual practice  Especially in the 3 years you spent prior to Stream Entry, what was that progress like?  I'm working very hard on the path of insight but it's challenging to know if I'm really doing it correctly or making real progress to my first cessation.  Thanks again for posting here and adding to the discussion, it's extremely valuable.

haha you can prob take apart my videos and get most of the answers;  But it's actually really simple man, when you dissolve from solidity to air, from form to emptiness and Realize they're actually the same thing, there are moments of expansion and contraction, but from the Absolute level there is no such movements.  And to dissolve form (solidity of sensations, be it body or mind or emotions or perception) into emptiness, all you really have to do is sit still enough for long enough. Place awareness on any solidity long enough, it'll inevitably dissolve it into subtler and subtler levels, and at the most subtle level the very big (Infinity) and the very small (Nothingness) is exactly the same thing.  The holographic projection of an ant is fundamentally no different from the holographic projection of the mountain.   

[vladorion]

32 minutes ago, Being Frank Yang said:

Drop the center and every moment is Reality creating Itself.  "Infinite Intelligence", stuff you speak of is the manifestation of Form upon realization centerless-ness.  I think most of the misconception here is Leo talks more about the Form/manifestation aspect of Realization, which has levels and states and degrees (what the eye ball sees)  but I tend to focus on the Realization itself, which nothing can be said about. 

Perfectly said.

[Inliytened1]

2 hours ago, Being Frank Yang said:

Haha it's ultimately the same but the degrees of subtler realizations and experiences that leads up the Realization of both has levels. Also we have to understand the difference between Realization and peak experiences/glimpses.  Realization is a permanent shift to what IS, this is a permanent change at the deep cellular level. 

Yeah for sure I totally agree there.  That is a good distinction to point out

There can be many glimpses/mystical experiences prior to a full awakening/Realization. 

[fopylo]

@Being Frank Yang Hey man, I assume you must have been getting this question asked a lot, but still - Why are you passionate about building a good physique? Isn't that just ego gratification?

I also workout and want to get those gains you know, but I think I'm doing it to gratify my self image and was wondering your take on it.

[Being Frank Yang]

14 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

Frank has gone further with No Self than Leo. Leo has gone further with God Realization than Frank. They both are naturally attached to the effectiveness of their school because it’s what worked best for them. Each seems to have experienced a more shallow version of the “opposing” school than the other person has. This is a good lesson on bias and how different people respond to different methods. 

@BipolarGrowthYou can't really go closer or further with No-Self because this Realization doesn't have stages, it's not even an experience in and of itself.  And true Realization of no self IS God Realization and there is no opposite to this.   Again when there is no more center you ARE God because there is nothing else and every moment is Reality creating Itself.  Where can the Strange Loop go but into Itself?  I think most people on here are confusing God Realization with temporary EXPERIENCES and MANIFESTATION of Realization with Realization Itself. The elephant analogy only makes sense when you're focusing on the content, as the ______ that manifest the trunk is the same as that which manifests the tail.   Like I said @Leo Gura focuses more on the Form aspect of it in his teachings which can be infinitely complex, and I focus on how to get to the _________ which transcends even the Infinite and the Finite duality and cannot be speak of at all...which if you really understand this distinction there is no conflict.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Being Frank Yang

[Being Frank Yang]

26 minutes ago, fopylo said:

@Being Frank Yang Hey man, I assume you must have been getting this question asked a lot, but still - Why are you passionate about building a good physique? Isn't that just ego gratification?

I also workout and want to get those gains you know, but I think I'm doing it to gratify my self image and was wondering your take on it.

 I haven't cared about my physique for years. I just do it because it's fun, it's something this meatsuit programmed itself to do over the last 1.5 decade, it;s not a bad program to run ahaha so why not keep at it. 

[fopylo]

@Being Frank Yang I don't know, then why try to show your amazing physique? 

There was a thread not to long ago about building a good physique, and Leo for example said that he rather keep looking lean because it's more healthy, and building a nice physique serves no purpose really. Only for ego. How can you build your physique without it being ego gratification, or is it the only way? Just curious to know more details on your take on it

[Leo Gura]

13 hours ago, Being Frank Yang said:

Experiential Realization of this takes place at the cellular level. If whatever you Realize come and go, it cannot be said to be a genuine Realization.

This is false.

Many people have temporary and partial awakenings which come and are lost. In fact, this is the most common type of awakening.

The temporariness of an awakening has absolutely no relation to its truth value. It is true and genuine even if it lasts 1 second.

12 hours ago, Being Frank Yang said:

Then those "enlightened people" haven't completely dissolved the self/center and having closed the Infinity Loop.

That's some no-true-Scotsman position.

But if 40 years of professional Vipassana meditation haven't completely dissolved the self, then what hope do these folks have here?

You are treating this issue too flippantly.

I know many people who have fully realized no-self. But they have not realized God or Infinity or Love. Because those are higher and more challenging realizations. No-self is one of the easiest realizations.

I could name names to you of serious people who I know for sure have not realized God, Infinity, or Love. And that is after years and decades of serious practice. So this issue is not merely one of argument for argument's sake. There is something profound which people are missing and refuse to acknowledge they are missing. You could be missing it too and not even know it.

The bottom line is that dissolving the self is not the same thing as God-realization. But, dissolving the self is important, so I don't ague with that. It's just not sufficient. No-self is not Infinite Consciousness, and no amount of logic you use will change that. It does not matter if your no-self is temporary or permanent, it is still not God-realization nor Infinite Consciousness.

Also, God-realization and Infinite Consciousness has nothing to do with full dissolving the ego-self. It may dissolve or it may not and it does not matter from the perspective of Truth/Consciousness. It only matters from the relative human perspective. Which is important, but it is not all-important.

I agree that permanently dropping the self is not the same as a peak experience of consciousness. I have never said otherwise. And I agree that permanently dropping the self is an important part of this work. But it is not the end-all-be-all and there are much bigger things beyond.

Quote

The point is very simple, once you drop the self you will be God,

This is false.

You have always been God, so that's a moot point, but you are not fully conscious of what God is even if you drop the self. Realizing God is a distinct realization from no-self regardless of its permanence.

Telling people that they will realize God simply by dropping the self is not correct and it will prevent people from God-realization. This is the only reason I am here arguing with you. It is deeply misleading and I don't want this idea fed to my audience.

Quote

and by that time you probably wouldn't bother talking about God in X or Y way because you ARE IT.  An eye ball that does not see itself probably won't keep talking about what the eye ball looks   and that's the main confusion here.  you talk more about what the eye ball sees, and I talk about how to Realize the eyeball and person can be awakened to No-Self/God but does not prope deeper into the different aspects of the manifestation of God etcc

You fundamentally misunderstand my communication about God-realization. You are taking me to be saying something about form. I am not. That is not what God-realization is about. And anyway, form and formlessness are identical, so to even make such a distinction and minimize form is already a subtle duality you're creating.

I don't know where some of you guys got this idea that I am against no-self. No-self is a basic, easily insight which I have had many times and I teach no-self. I have always taught it. But then I went on to realize much greater things which make no-self look like child's play.

It is not that Frank is pro no-self while Leo is anti-no-self. Leo fully understands no-self but is telling you there is something way deeper which is being missed by even very serious practitioners of nonduality. But you guys are dismissing this. Well, I can't force you to listen. Somebody someday will get it. But not with this kind of closedminded and dismissive attitude.

I hate doing these nondual debates but what you are saying here goes against something very fundamental that I have committed to teaching. And so I feel obliged to make these corrections. It is like you walked into a yoga ashram and started teaching Zen. Well, what do you expect will happen?

If you want to teach your version of nonduality, by all means teach it to your audience, Frank. I have never interfered with whatever it is you teach to your audience. And I have no quarrel with you. But also, please respect that I have certain things that I teach and I don't like being drawn into these clickbait debates. I have better things to do than argue about the existence of God and Love.

If you disagree with me about God and Love, my teachings and this forum is not for you. It is not healthy or proper to follow a teacher who you fundamentally disagree with.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, fopylo said:

@Being Frank Yang I don't know, then why try to show your amazing physique? 

There was a thread not to long ago about building a good physique, and Leo for example said that he rather keep looking lean because it's more healthy, and building a nice physique serves no purpose really. Only for ego. How can you build your physique without it being ego gratification, or is it the only way? Just curious to know more details on your take on it

He can do it just for fun, if that's what he's into.

Anything in life can be done for the fun of it. Just be honest with yourself if that's why you're really doing it.

[Leo Gura]

This thread will soon be getting locked, so whoever wants to, speak your last words. I will not be adding to this thread any more.

[kinesin]

@Leo Gura Then take your leave and allow the discussion to continue.  You have no reason whatsoever to lock this thread and put a halt to this very enjoyable and respectful thread, simply because you are losing patience with it.

[Bronson]

@Leo Gura The cult leader has spoken!

Just kidding

Edited May 20, 2021 by Bronson

[Being Frank Yang]

Hey Leo! I'll have to rea

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is false.

Many people have temporary and partial awakenings which come and are lost. In fact, this is the most common type of awakening. 
 

The temporariness of an awakening has absolutely no relation to its truth value. It is true and genuine even if it lasts 1 second.

That's some no-true-Scotsman position.

But if 40 years of professional Vipassana meditation haven't completely dissolved the self, then what hope do these folks have here?

You are treating this issue too flippantly.

I know many people who have fully realized no-self. But they have not realized God or Infinity or Love. Because those are higher and more challenging realizations. No-self is one of the easiest realizations.

I could name names to you of serious people who I know for sure have not realized God, Infinity, or Love. And that is after years and decades of serious practice. So this issue is not merely one of argument for argument's sake. There is something profound which people are missing and refuse to acknowledge they are missing. You could be missing it too and not even know it.

The bottom line is that dissolving the self is not the same thing as God-realization. But, dissolving the self is important, so I don't ague with that. It's just not sufficient. No-self is not Infinite Consciousness, and no amount of logic you use will change that. It does not matter if your no-self is temporary or permanent, it is still not God-realization nor Infinite Consciousness.

Also, God-realization and Infinite Consciousness has nothing to do with full dissolving the ego-self. It may dissolve or it may not and it does not matter from the perspective of Truth/Consciousness. It only matters from the relative human perspective. Which is important, but it is not all-important.

I agree that permanently dropping the self is not the same as a peak experience of consciousness. I have never said otherwise. And I agree that permanently dropping the self is an important part of this work. But it is not the end-all-be-all and there are much bigger things beyond.

This is false.

You have always been God, so that's a moot point, but you are not fully conscious of what God is even if you drop the self. Realizing God is a distinct realization from no-self regardless of its permanence.

Telling people that they will realize God simply by dropping the self is not correct and it will prevent people from God-realization. This is the only reason I am here arguing with you. It is deeply misleading and I don't want this idea fed to my audience.

You fundamentally misunderstand my communication about God-realization. You are taking me to be saying something about form. I am not. That is not what God-realization is about. And anyway, form and formlessness are identical, so to even make such a distinction and minimize form is already a subtle duality you're creating.

I don't know where some of you guys got this idea that I am against no-self. No-self is a basic, easily insight which I have had many times and I teach no-self. I have always taught it. But then I went on to realize much greater things which make no-self look like child's play.

It is not that Frank is pro no-self while Leo is anti-no-self. Leo fully understands no-self but is telling you there is something way deeper which is being missed by even very serious practitioners of nonduality. But you guys are dismissing this. Well, I can't force you to listen. Somebody someday will get it. But not with this kind of closedminded and dismissive attitude.

I hate doing these nondual debates but what you are saying here goes against something very fundamental that I have committed to teaching. And so I feel obliged to make these corrections. It is like you walked into a yoga ashram and started teaching Zen. Well, what do you expect will happen?

If you want to teach your version of nonduality, by all means teach it to your audience, Frank. I have never interfered with whatever it is you teach to your audience. And I have no quarrel with you. But also, please respect that I have certain things that I teach and I don't like being drawn into these clickbait debates. I have better things to do than argue about the existence of God and Love.

If you disagree with me about God and Love, my teachings and this forum is not for you. It is not healthy or proper to follow a teacher who you fundamentally disagree with.

Hey Leo! Thanks for the response.

- Well truth is I can only speak from my own direct experience, which is direct Realization of No Self automatically gives you access to abiding Infinite Consciousness 24 7. Now one can still experience infinite consciousness from a center, and this is what I take to be the difference between True No-Self and partial non duality.  You can have a perceptual shift of form = emptiness, Oneness, and attain 99 percent of what most non dual teachings talk about while you're center is still in tact. A difference between having just a spec of solidity in there vs a complete dropping away of center is quantum. 

Awakening experiences is not the same as Realization.  This is the main point I was trying to make.  I think we're just bogging ourselves down to language and concepts art this point.  ☺️
 

 

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Being Frank Yang said:

Well truth is I can only speak from my own direct experience, which is direct Realization of No Self automatically gives you access to abiding Infinite Consciousness 24 7.

This is simply, factually, not the case for the vast majority of people -- if you study the many cases of people's awakenings.

I can't speak for you. I can speak from the extensive experience I have of seeing and reading about people's awakenings.

Only very, very rarely does a human being simply go to full awakening is one breakthrough. It is so rare so to not be worth talking about. And even then, I would still say the person is not Infinitely Conscious. If you were truly Infinitely Conscious you could not walk or talk, and in fact, you could not hold onto that swole body

There are so many radically different modes of consciousness that boiling it down to one thing is just ridiculously limited.

You don't even understand what no-self is until you smoke some salvia and can't even remember your own name or that you were ever human. That's some serious no-self. When you turn into a coffee table, that will be some deep no-self.

[max duewel]

Can you please not lock this thread, I learn so much from you both sharing your perspectives. Frank's way of teaching is perfectly complementary to yours and he helped me so much can not describe it (Much Love to both of you). It would be a shame if he would not be contributing on this forum.

[RMQualtrough]

Salvia Divinorum did not reproduce the no-self effect for me as deeply as the combination of being really stoned on cannabis then hitting a large amount of DMT.

On that combination I recall now that I literally had no idea that humans ever existed. By no idea I mean truly, I did not even try to remember what a human is because I didn't even know such a thing existed. I did not know that I had EVER not been where I was at that time or that I ever had a name. I WAS a worm, always had been, and I had always existed in this neon green tunnel which I moved through.

There was no possibility to be scared and I did not focus on the trip or what was happening, because I had NO IDEA that this was unusual at all. It was like you are a human now but really you're a space alien and soon you will be back in your alien self. We have no idea what's happening now is abnormal so we feel it is mundane. Same thing.

 

A curious experience but ultimately uninsightful. If you don't even know that you ought to be paying attention to what's happening then you will simply miss it all.

[Adamq8]

 

Let me tell you that GOD realization is the most intense experience ever,  if we can call it as such.

Let me tell you that solipsism became true in that experience. 

When your girlfriend who is not interested in spirituality wakes up the at the same moment you do and recognizes that you are GOD things tend to get a little bit freaky.

I woke up to that my parents did not exist and I freaked out and then my girlfriend became me, and she said she had been waiting for me to wake up and it is just me here.

I ask what how the fuck do you know this and why is it like this?

The answer : It has always been like this, all there is , is to create.

And then my living room almost got sucked into the black hole, she moved exactly when I moved and did the same movements, she was a mirror. 

Then I realized that it is only me here.

Do you understand?

Imagine you have a girlfriend who is not interested in spirituality or GOD only to become you and tell you that yes you are GOD and "shes" been waiting for you to wake up and there is no one but you in existence, and I moved her body when I moved mine.

Ive told this story before, this was just a quick summary. 

 

[CBDinfused]

Give the people what they want! A debate between Leo and Frank. Or just a friendly webinar discussion. Or maybe you guys can meet up at a gym, work out, and discuss enlightenment (filmed). Just throwing some ideas out there. 

[knakoo]

@Being Frank Yang

Hi Frank, thank you for your contribution to the forum. 

I am curious about something : Sadhguru talks about being in a state of ecstasy all the time. Is it the same for you ? If not then do you have some idea why ?

I remember from one of your video post enlightenment when you said you were a bit scared of doing a new vipassana retreat (paraphrasing). I had the impression that full no self realisation meant the end of fear. That is not the case ?

Do you still experience thoughts that simply pop up in your mind or is it total silence unless you are consciously thinking about something ?

Finally if you ever take 5 meo dmt ago please come on this forum to share your experience !

Edited May 20, 2021 by knakoo