Frank Yang's video response to Leo's video - about stage Turquoise

[Inliytened1]

2 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Here is the path:

You sit down, you get enlightened. You get enlightened again. You get so enlightened that you return to being normal.

You get so enlightened that you realize that everyone around you has always been enlightened and has already achieved the full path. You realize there is nobody who is unaware of anything. They are all conscious of the ultimate nature of existence, they are all aware of that which you have spent years to become aware of. They have deconstructed it all.

Go back to the drawing board bud! If you still think there is someone that gets enlightened and then sees the enlightenment of others then you have much more to go!

And no - you don't go back to suffering because there is no one to suffer

 

[Scholar]

3 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Go back to the drawing board bud! If you still think there is someone that gets enlightened and then sees the enlightenment of others then you have much more to go!

And no - you don't go back to suffering because there is no one to suffer

 

But there is. Just because you are pretending that there isn't doesn't mean that there is no pretending that there is! I can draw whatever I want, what else would I draw?

I agree with you brother, but we are both wrong.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Scholar

[Danioover9000]

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

And I have never denied that. That downward path to emptiness, as I call it, has validity and usefulness. Obviously Buddhists are doing something right with their practices. Namely what they're doing is dissolving the mind/ego. This is important to do, up to a point.

But I would still say that what's missing there is God-realization and Love. That downward path has a reductionistic bias. There is a tendency to reduce everything down to no-mind, and this is not something I'm on board with. I see value in it, but it is not the full path and it is not the highest realization as far as I'm concerned.

I see far too many Buddhist and Neo-advaita types who have no clue what God is and no clue what Love is, and even worse, denying the reality of both, which to me is an abysmal failure. They have reduced consciousness so far down that they lost the most important part. These people are not as conscious as they could be, even if their ego is very dissolved.

I reject the notion of "mystical experiences". All experience of any kind is Absolute Truth. All states are Absolute Truth.

God-realization and Love is not merely "a mystical experience". That kind of dismissive attitude is what I challenge. Likewise I challenge dismissive attitudes towards the insights revealed by psychedelics. As if psychedelic insights are not the real deal.

   If the states are being dismissed under the labels 'mystical experiences' instead of absolute truth, there I agree that isn't the case and is poor usage of the words. However, keeping in mind 1-10% and so of the world population does experience paranormal phenomena, I would not be quick to discount 'mystical experiences' as those do happen from time to time, nor diminish their significance to groups or a person who may have little to no frame work to help them know of such events. Hauntings, flickering lights, possessions, channeling, ESP abilities, and nightmares are some examples of mystical experiences, sober, altered consciousness or on psychedelics could be experienced.

   Yes, while mystical experiences are significant, they are not the only things. As long as anybody isn't losing sight to pursue god realization, then enjoy or brace for any mystical experiences that may or may not happen, or training yourself for mystical experiences if it rings good for you. So good luck!

      

[Scholar]

See, all of this nonsense that there is nobody to suffer and that suffering is an illusion is something that you can only pretend to be true because you pretended there was suffering which you got over in the first place. None of this is deeper, more truthful than the rest.

 

Suffering is as real as literally anything you could possibly say, think or become aware of. The hierarchy of realness of that you came up with is just as real as my non-hierarchy of realness. That's the entire point of realness! You can make anything real!

 

If suffering was not real, if the one who suffers was not real, then reality wouldn't be infinite. It would be limited to whatever your little chimp mind happened to think after whatever happened to it. Your deconstruction is as "unreal" as anything else. When you unravel it all, you will find yourself right back where you began.

 

The deconstruction is the construction of that which is being deconstructed.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Scholar

[Visionary]

On 17-5-2021 at 3:47 AM, Leo Gura said:

Do not confuse Absolute Truth with permanence of state.

All states are Absolute Truth.

Never forget: There can only be ONE thing. That ONE thing must be Absolute Truth regardless of what form or shape it takes or how long it lasts. And that thing must be absolutely unlimited and self-created. And it must love itself.

Must love itself

Translated: love love love

Must = love

Love = love

Itself = love

 

[Inliytened1]

8 minutes ago, Scholar said:

See, all of this nonsense that there is nobody to suffer and that suffering is an illusion is something that you can only pretend to be true because you pretended there was suffering which you got over in the first place.

Dude you're all over the place and not making any sense. Take a chill pill. 

[Scholar]

@Inliytened1

Maybe this language will help you:

You know how you think it takes consciousness to realize you are God and Love and Nothingness? It takes awareness? Well, imagine one day you become so aware that you literally dissolve into Godhood, into literally Infinite Awareness.

 

You know what this Infinite Awareness will become aware of? It will literally be so aware that it will make itself aware of being separate from itself. It will realize that it is not God, that it is a monkey sitting here suffering. It will be so aware that it will become unaware. That's true awareness. That is Ultimate Awareness. That is Ultimate Consciousness. It is Infinitely Powerful. It is literally Magic. That's how "conscious" all of us are. You cannot top that, because it's the Ultimate.

 

2 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Dude you're all over the place and not making any sense. Take a chill pill. 

Indeed. I am quite calm my brother, but I agree none of this makes sense. Unless we pretend it does.

[Fadl]

I think we need to get rid of this enlightenment stuff and focus on reality, what is happening.. I mean we are not a bunch of psychedelics users .. we must be more than that.

[Being Frank Yang]

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

Here is the path:

You sit down, you get enlightened. You get enlightened again. You get so enlightened that you return to being normal.

You get so enlightened that you realize that everyone around you has always been enlightened and has already achieved the full path. You realize there is nobody who is unaware of anything. They are all conscious of the ultimate nature of existence, they are all aware of that which you have spent years to become aware of. They have deconstructed it all. Infact, they have deconstructed it all so much, that the only last thing you have to achieve their final level of enlightenment, is to forget completely about enlightenment, truth and all the nonsense you have gathered.

 

And then you suffer, you suffer as you always have. That is your sacrifice and your ultimate Truth. You cry about how you want to stop suffering, and seek, utterly aware, but blind to the truth. Your blindness is your ultimate awareness. And one day, you decide you want to seek truth and love. And you sit down so you get enlightened.

Bro i love you but you're saying what half of non duality and radical non dualists like Jim Newman and Tony Parson are saying. It's beautiful and it's true, and it's great reminder for people who are striving too hard, but it doesn't really help most people who are still searching.  There is a search and a path until there isn't.  I've done and ended all of the inquires you've listed here. yeah yeah no body here nothing to do everybody and everything is enlightened hehehehehe 

[Being Frank Yang]

2 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Go back to the drawing board bud! If you still think there is someone that gets enlightened and then sees the enlightenment of others then you have much more to go!

And no - you don't go back to suffering because there is no one to suffer

 

 

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

@Inliytened1

Maybe this language will help you:

You know how you think it takes consciousness to realize you are God and Love and Nothingness? It takes awareness? Well, imagine one day you become so aware that you literally dissolve into Godhood, into literally Infinite Awareness.

 

You know what this Infinite Awareness will become aware of? It will literally be so aware that it will make itself aware of being separate from itself. It will realize that it is not God, that it is a monkey sitting here suffering. It will be so aware that it will become unaware. That's true awareness. That is Ultimate Awareness. That is Ultimate Consciousness. It is Infinitely Powerful. It is literally Magic. That's how "conscious" all of us are. You cannot top that, because it's the Ultimate.

 

Indeed. I am quite calm my brother, but I agree none of this makes sense. Unless we pretend it does.

You still think "Infinite Awareness", "Ultimate", and a "monkey"  and "true awareness" by your very own contextualization of the Thing don't you also need to deconstruct and dissolve all of the above?  

[Being Frank Yang]

1 hour ago, Fadl said:

I think we need to get rid of this enlightenment stuff and focus on reality, what is happening.. I mean we are not a bunch of psychedelics users .. we must be more than that.

 

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

   If the states are being dismissed under the labels 'mystical experiences' instead of absolute truth, there I agree that isn't the case and is poor usage of the words. However, keeping in mind 1-10% and so of the world population does experience paranormal phenomena, I would not be quick to discount 'mystical experiences' as those do happen from time to time, nor diminish their significance to groups or a person who may have little to no frame work to help them know of such events. Hauntings, flickering lights, possessions, channeling, ESP abilities, and nightmares are some examples of mystical experiences, sober, altered consciousness or on psychedelics could be experienced.

   Yes, while mystical experiences are significant, they are not the only things. As long as anybody isn't losing sight to pursue god realization, then enjoy or brace for any mystical experiences that may or may not happen, or training yourself for mystical experiences if it rings good for you. So good luck!

      

Reality just IS.

 

ye don't need to deny mystical experiences, they are fun and you can learn a lot from them but keep reminding yourself that they're mostly the by product of Realization/dissolution 

 

[Being Frank Yang]

here are some more visual representation of moment to moment experience of Reality after the center is dissolved 

[Flyboy]

6 hours ago, Being Frank Yang said:

I will also ad d another difference, how minor/major it is depend on the individual. Leo places "God Realization" at the end of the path, I place No Self at the end and anything God related as simply an experience/by product of an authentic Realization of No Self (which again despite what some people believe this is actually extremely rare. Hence I make the distinction between temporarily transcending the self via meditation and psychedelics vs a permanent Realization of dropping away of self) and to me most people who think they're GOd Realized are simply having an experience from the separated state. Here is my very simple stages of Awakening that might help put things into perspective.

1.  I Am/Identification of ego (everything below Turquoise) Contracted sense of self that stuck inside the head and behind the eyes.

2. I Am Awareness/Consciousness, which is the identification to the Witnessing of 1 (Stream Entry)

3. I Am God/Infinity/Universal Mind And Love. Identification of God. I Am Everything.

4. I Am Nothingness/Emptiness. Total loss of identity. An extremely nebulous sense of self

5. Enlightenment/ True No Self.

5, An authentic Enlightenment is the UN-ALTERED STATE of Consciousness aka Natural State, which dis-identifies, includes but transcends all the previous stages.   This state is what Osho calls "Beyond Enlightenment", completely ordinary, yet some many sense even deeper than the Universal Mind stage. 

One thing i agree with Leo is that there aren't a lot of teachers out there who's Realized the "Loop", as in they'll talk about emptiness and no self but they are missing the "Form"/"Infinity" aspect of it.  After my Awakening it was a surprise to me how very few people ever talk about Strange Loops, or what I call the direct moment to moment experience of Universe Fucking/Eating Itself through and through, Cosmic Snake Biting It's Own Tail, but few seem to "close the circuit" 

Frank, I love this and it has cleared up a lot for me, but something is still confusing me.

Leo talks about "everything is God", yet you speak of "No Self" (which to me means, basically, not even God exists?  that everything just is?)  I have a hard time with this because in a way it's coming back to reality being completely mysterious.  Is this what you truly mean?

Or is "God" still the point, just one that is truly All of the Above, as in Everything AND Nothing, Unity AND separation, Infinity AND dog poop.  This makes sense to me, but I'm still trying to understand what you really mean by No Self.

[VeganAwake]

8 hours ago, Scholar said:

Your deconstruction is as "unreal" as anything else.

Exactly, the deconstruction is the only thing that is completely unreal.

The deconstruction is simultaneously the recognition that there wasn't anyone that could be deconstructed in the first place.

Nothing actually changes because it was already the case. And simultaneously it's completely different.

❤

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Flyboy said:

Leo talks about "everything is God", yet you speak of "No Self"

God is no-self. God is Infinite Self.

There is no contradiction here at all.

Nothing = Infinity

BUT!!! Just because you realize no-self does not mean you realize God/Infinity. It's easier to realize no-self than it is to realize God/Infinity. And there are many degrees of realizing God/Infinity.

I don't know why you guys are so confused about these matters since this is basic nondual theory. There is nothing controversial here.

[Flowerfaeiry]

What is the point of being enlightened? Happiness? Fulfillment? 

[VeganAwake]

There is no point and no meaning purpose or value to it either.

Enlightenment is the death of that which places imaginary values on top of reality.

 

[Flowerfaeiry]

5 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

There is no point and no meaning purpose or value to it either.

Enlightenment is the death of that which places imaginary values on top of reality.

 

Why put so much importance on it then? 

[Leo Gura]

@Flowerfaeiry Do you want to know how you created reality?

[Being Frank Yang]

5 hours ago, Flyboy said:

Frank, I love this and it has cleared up a lot for me, but something is still confusing me.

Leo talks about "everything is God", yet you speak of "No Self" (which to me means, basically, not even God exists?  that everything just is?)  I have a hard time with this because in a way it's coming back to reality being completely mysterious.  Is this what you truly mean?

Or is "God" still the point, just one that is truly All of the Above, as in Everything AND Nothing, Unity AND separation, Infinity AND dog poop.  This makes sense to me, but I'm still trying to understand what you really mean by No Self.

What I'm pointing to is, dude you can call Reality whatever you want, you can switch lenses of perception and experience Reality however you like after you've accessed x and y states, but after a certain point, after you dis-identify from everything, even God Consciousness,  you Realize Nature itself wouldn't bother labeling and analyzing itself as this or that.  And that most of what you experience on the Path, most of the Insights, is still filtered through spirituality doctrines and ideologies.   Think of the Natural State as the state of the Universe when every single human has been wiped out, or before and after there was any humans.  Or even before the Big Bang and after Big Crunch...Contemplate on that... You can say it's being completely mysterious sure! Saying anything about _______ no longer make sense.

 

"Or is "God" still the point, just one that is truly All of the Above, as in Everything AND Nothing, Unity AND separation, Infinity AND dog poop" who's making those distinctions?